Author Topic: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?  (Read 73977 times)

Offline 123456789blaaa

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« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 11:34:18 AM by 123456789blaaa »
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Offline Agita

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The argument has been made before. In just about every thread on the topic. Multiple times. I've yet to see it actually end the debate.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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The argument has been made before. In just about every thread on the topic. Multiple times. I've yet to see it actually end the debate.

could you link a post? because i have only seen this argument made with the draconomnicon and not with races of the dragon.
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Offline Agita

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Hmm... on a quick search through just the one thread I remember best (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10353.0 if you're curious), you appear to be right, the list quoted is the one from Draconomicon. However, the arguments against the Draconomicon list weren't, as far as I recall, primarily based on it being outdated, so I don't see this as changing much anyway. Your mileage may vary.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 12:46:49 PM »
After looking over the GitP thread, I'm convinced, actually. DWKs are not true dragons.
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Offline dipolartech

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 12:54:29 PM »
After reading it, I'm not convinced, because the "OMG here's a list in a book that nobody has ever quoted before" just ended a 6 year argument just doesn't hold enough water for me. Also, in terms of expandibility (homebrew i suppose) a mechanical definition is better than a list.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2012, 01:00:10 PM »
After reading it, I'm not convinced, because the "OMG here's a list in a book that nobody has ever quoted before" just ended a 6 year argument just doesn't hold enough water for me. Also, in terms of expandibility (homebrew i suppose) a mechanical definition is better than a list.
It's a list in the same book as DWKs, though, and it doesn't include them in the list. They're not on the list, period.
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Offline dipolartech

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 01:05:16 PM »
I do agree that they aren't on the list and since I couldn't care less whether or not they are "True Dragons" (which apparently is for Loredrake shenanigans), I really just want more pages of bitter back for "does too, does not!" rules lawyering to read.

On a side note is it legal to build a Dragonwrought Kobold Dragonfire Adept with Aberrant reach? Dragonwrought doesn't reset stuff like that like Dragonborn does it?

Offline linklord231

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 02:03:53 PM »
My problem with that list is that it's specifically only for use with the Half-Dragon template.  It wouldn't make sense to have Kobolds on the list (even Dragonwrought ones), because only kobolds with a certain feat would qualify.  What kind of breath weapon would a half-Dragon (Dragonwrought Kobold) have?  What kind of energy immunity? 
To me, that list really only says that Dragonwrought Kobolds are not valid versions of the Half-Dragon template.

Edit:  Furthermore, the exact quote from pg 69 of Races of the Dragon is "The information here expands [the list of draconic heritage options for the Half-Dragon Template from Monster Manual 1] to include all true dragons published in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS products to date."  Has there ever been a Kobold with the Dragonwrought feat published in D&D?  The options exist, but I wasn't able to find an example of such a character in an official published source.  The feat was published, kobolds were published, but I don't think there's ever been a Dragonwrought Kobold published.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 02:13:07 PM by linklord231 »
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 02:07:26 PM »
What kind of breath weapon would a half-Dragon (Dragonwrought Kobold) have?
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Offline dipolartech

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 02:12:27 PM »
Brie? Gouda? Or something totally crappy like that Velveeta "cheese-like brick of oil"?

Offline betrayor

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 02:57:57 PM »
I don't really care one way or another if Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons or not,but the list arguement is pretty weak....
That's because Dragonwrought is a creature that only happens because of a feat,similarly I don't see in the lists Celestial or Fiendish Dragons and I pretty sure that they remain True Dragons even if they are templated in such a way.......
Also races of the dragon missed the true Dragons from the Dragon Magazine and Dragonlance books,so you can not state that whateven is not in that list is not a true dragon.....


Offline linklord231

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2012, 03:15:27 PM »
I don't really care one way or another if Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons or not,but the list arguement is pretty weak....
That's because Dragonwrought is a creature that only happens because of a feat,similarly I don't see in the lists Celestial or Fiendish Dragons and I pretty sure that they remain True Dragons even if they are templated in such a way.......
Also races of the dragon missed the true Dragons from the Dragon Magazine and Dragonlance books,so you can not state that whateven is not in that list is not a true dragon.....

Good catch on templated dragons.
The list doesn't include dragons from Dragon Magazine or Dragonlance because those aren't WotC published - they might be WotC official, but not published.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »
What kind of breath weapon would a half-Dragon (Dragonwrought Kobold) have?
Pure Cheese. :D

Stinky Green (dragon) Cheese ... it's worse than Bleu Cheese, it's poisonous.
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I think this poster probably has the best argument (relative to that specific thread).
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?s=dbc238beb32bd1da238abaf1c37cae5e&p=13337670&postcount=276
Inconsistent rules , is part and parcel of C.O. fun and games, eh ?!



I mean, the original C.O. argument , way back in the day now ,
was well aware that you can only Infer that DWKobolds are
True Dragons.  The inference is (well "was") clear.  That doesn't
mean anyone absolutely has to accept it in their home games.
This latest line of argumentation --- imho --- opens legit rules
to say either side can now INFER the yes or the no.

Big deal.
Don't play DWKobolds if it give too much heartburn or  :puke
It's a weak and near useless feat, played the one way.

Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline betrayor

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2012, 03:55:47 PM »
I don't really care one way or another if Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons or not,but the list arguement is pretty weak....
That's because Dragonwrought is a creature that only happens because of a feat,similarly I don't see in the lists Celestial or Fiendish Dragons and I pretty sure that they remain True Dragons even if they are templated in such a way.......
Also races of the dragon missed the true Dragons from the Dragon Magazine and Dragonlance books,so you can not state that whateven is not in that list is not a true dragon.....

Good catch on templated dragons.
The list doesn't include dragons from Dragon Magazine or Dragonlance because those aren't WotC published - they might be WotC official, but not published.
What about the obsidian dragon which was puchlished in WotC site....
It is surely wotc published?
And something else,Draconomicon seems to recongise Dragon magazine as an official source as it lists dragons that were in various issues(see Draconomicon page 287 .....)
I don't think that the list was all that inclusive.....

Offline Agita

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2012, 06:31:55 PM »
What kind of breath weapon would a half-Dragon (Dragonwrought Kobold) have?
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Offline Wrex

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2012, 06:41:04 PM »
This thread just reminded me that I don't have a copy of Dragon Magic.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 03:43:27 AM »
After reading it, I'm not convinced, because the "OMG here's a list in a book that nobody has ever quoted before" just ended a 6 year argument just doesn't hold enough water for me. Also, in terms of expandibility (homebrew i suppose) a mechanical definition is better than a list.
The fact that you dismiss rules on account of a bunch of idiots recycle a stupid idea is the reason is still persists. That's right, just like you there are a thousand other people saying I can't argue or prove anything but an unspecified group of unnamed people do so f*ck rules and book count. ~THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST!!1!!!1!!1

DWK Kobold arguments have always operated on the concept that the rest of the book is wrong and DWK is an exception.
Entry on TD interacting with Kobolds? Doesn't mean DWKers.
Draconic Heritage / Half-Dragon list? Doesn't mean DWKers.
Page 4 stating the kobold RACE isn't a True Dragon? Doesn't mean DWKers.
Direct linage (that is one parent is a TD) makes you a Half-Dragon which doesn't make anything a TD? It's ok, mygreat great great great grandpa was a Red Dragon so I'm a TD.
The core element of it's argument goes something like Wizard's need 19 Intelligence to cast 9th level spells, but I say Elven Wizards are an exception and are clearly not named in the rule passage therefor whilst Feebleminded I can cast Gate. No DM in his right mind would humor you and you would be a moron to think otherwise.

Even the pretense, you can qualify for a race or racial subset, isn't even in the rules. A Balor is a Demon because it says so, a Lung Dragon is a True Dragon because it says so, a Kobold is a Kobold because it says so. Having the outsider type and DR don't make you a Devil, having the Dragon type doesn't make you a True Dragon. Just like having the Spell Cure Minor Wounds and Turn Undead doesn't turn a Paladin into a Cleric or some other bullshit like that.

Hell, look at the awesome power of a TD that I've brought up multiple times. A real TD is obtains HD from getting older. Like on it's birthday it gains two HD, maybe some new SLAs, maybe obtaining DR/SR for the first time, maybe even obtaining Frightful Presence. No other monster type truly does or advances like this. Like take a Greater Elemental, per RAW they can only advance to 23 HD and that's it. The Elder Air Elemental has 24HD but that's another monster entry, but even if the conclusion they are one and the same the term "Elder" doesn't apply to age. It could be five minutes old or fifty years old, no speculation is made and it just lacks that real connection that TDs have. This is what the Draconomicon meant by "more abilities" if the basics of English grammar escape you. And as the Errata would back up, the Draconomicon holds priority on TD (thus what is or isn't if qualification did exist), not the MM1, not Dragon Magic, not even the DMG and PHB.

When you hear something and wonder if it's fact. Count the number of loops holes used, the illogical leaps, the personal intent trumps the book's and so on. You can judge how stupid a person is by the larger the number gets and how much material it has to argue against and ignore to work.

Offline Zionpopsickle

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2012, 04:29:09 AM »
Regardless of the mechanical arguments (which I think are a bit unimportant in the long run because your either trying to do something TO or you are doing something that would be fine regardless of race) I will admit that I love the idea of DWK being true dragons from an RP perspective.  I find something satisfyingly ironic about certain special 2 foot tall lizards being able to claim membership in one of the most powerful club of beings in the multiverse. 

It just gives me a silly mental image of the collection of true dragons sitting around a table hashing out dragon business and in between the great wyrm prismatic and force dragons is a tiny kobold bitchin' about how he doesn't get any respect like a tiny draconic Rodney Dangerfield.

Offline dipolartech

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2012, 08:38:57 AM »
Well since I just suffered a SorO rant, I guess I'll have to be a little more clear. I, Dipolartech, do not give a fuck if a Dragonwrought Kobold counts as a True Dragon. I attempted to show a little bit of sarcasm with the italicized word in the post you quoted, because the thread we were referring sounds like the fucking sand lot kids coming to a conclusion about how to fly to Mars. I wasn't convinced by their arguments (at the end to even lean to one side or the other) because the post they all agreed about is quoting 6 year old texts that I'm thought probably dozens of other threads have brought up.

Irregardless of the way and number of times you SorO have successfully or unsuccessfully argued this DWK != TD point, I'm new and have not seen those arguments. So don't come trying to single me out and complain that I'm unable to follow your logic and come to the correct conclusion.

Also, just in the one thread I read everything except the analogy you used I saw, though admittedly you are better at logical argument than about 90% of the posters in that thread.