Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?

[linklord231]

published = stat block in a official source

^^This.

 
@Pencil:  I didn't mean to imply that I spoke with any of the authors of RotD, only that it should be obvious considering the fact the list doesn't include templated True Dragons among other things.  Why should it include Kobolds with a certain feat?  It's such an incredibly niche case that it wouldn't be worth the time.

[SorO_Lost]

the one from page 69-72?  that is clearly only published  true dragons, like others said, they never published a dragonwrought kobold

edit: the Ectoplasmic, Incarnum, Obsidian and Rattelyr Dragons apparently are not true dragons since they are not on the RotD list, nor do they say TD in their descriptions either.

A. Published, and nothing gives a damn about Mind's Eye articles anyway.
B. MoF canonizes the Rattelyr.
C. You're right. Nothing says the Incarnum is a TD, under my 1st point it isn't a TD.
However, it does in fact have every single trait a real TD down outside of spellcasting, right down to the advancement by age. And if the MoI isn't a TD, then the Kobold who lacks of everything but type can never be considered one. So since you agree on the MoI dragon isn't a TD, your strawman has killed your own point. So also the intent of point 3.

And on the back of DoF. You're right it isn't an exclusive TD only list. In the header it says it's only talking about named dragons. While I've only seen TDs listed on it, maybe there are some Fairies I sped past and missed. Interesting enough, it says it's a list of published dragons, and found on WotC's website. The differentiation of Published != Website is clear beyond a doubt, at least in DoF through English makes a strong case in RotD.

And on Templated Dragons? Wow, you're really scraping the barrel there huh? I can't even get Crystalkeep to list all the available Templates but WotC? It's like you think Templates change your race (they change your type, there again DWK). In fact, the only Template that counts as a Race is Dragonborn. And that template forces you to lose all racial traits you had, you know. In case you wanted an example of what changing your Race can truly mean.

[zook1shoe]

1a. already dealt with

2a. actually quite a few people here care about them. so 'nothing' is wrong.

if you mean that no published material doesn't care? it can't its paper :-p

oh you mean the publishers? no, most of them probably don't give a crap.


B. MoF?  magic of faerun? monsters of faerun? which book is that?   the Rattelyr is in the Shining South


1C. of course it has every trait less spellcasting of a True Dragon, the stat block is even set up the same. 99% of DMs would even count it was a TD unless like us argued about the exact meaning of the words. but since you refuse to see exactly what most of the rest of us see, exactly what EjoThims said, about how they"advance through age categories" vs.  "advance due to age categories"

my "strawman" did not kill my point at all. dragonwrought kobolds fall entirely under the following rule about True Dragons.

Draconomicon, page 4 "... True Dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older."

this must be true since later in the same sidebar, they following rule, which they do they not apply to.

"Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons..."

this means that i'm wrong and that the rattelyr, incarnum, obsidian, ectoplasmic, mercury, steel, and mist dragons all are True Dragons, along with Dragonwrought Kobolds, since they are of the Dragon type and all advance through age categories, and therefore are not 'lesser dragons' as the rule specifically tells us.

2C. thank you. i was just making sure you didn't try to use that as part of your argument

3C. as for my view on templated dragons? an inherited template does not replace the BASE race but adds to the total race of the creature, therefore counts as racial dragon.

inherited dragon templates... Half-Dragon
acquired dragon templates... Dragonspawn

the Dragonborn is a poor example, since it is not an inherited template and it also does not give you the Dragon subtype, only the dragonblood subtype

[linklord231]

Zook1shoe, I assumed the templated dragons remark was directed at my point that since the templated dragons aren't on the list, those supporting the idea that the so-called "comprehensive" list of True Dragons would have us believe that they are no longer True Dragons.  However, I could be wrong; he wasn't very clear. 

[zook1shoe]

i guess that was to everyone, but he was the one that had it in the quote i was using

edit: modified my previous post to hopefully help with future confusion

they shouldn't be strictly True Dragons since the templates themselves don't give the required age categories.... unless you put them on say..... a kobold.

[snakeman830]

Well, a Half Dragon Kobold doesn't meet the qualification of "growing more powerful with age" as the negation of aging penalties is a part of the Dragonwrought feat and not the Dragon type.

[zook1shoe]

ummm.... it is the Dragon type due to the template, and unfortunately gains mental power with age aka... -1 physical, +1 mental stats at middle age, etc.

i think that qualifies as True Dragon under the broadest of terms

[darqueseid]

I mean that it was meant to be a comprehensive list at the time that it was published.  Of course there have been true dragons published afterwards that that aren't on the list, I'm not sure how that fact supports (or has anything to do with) the argument. 

My point is that the dragonwrought kobolds were published in that very book, so if they were considered "true dragons" don't you think they'd get even an honorable mention? 

I don't see the point of the debate, they're still totally broken as just "dragon"....

[snakeman830]

ummm.... it is the Dragon type due to the template, and unfortunately gains mental power with age aka... -1 physical, +1 mental stats at middle age, etc.

i think that qualifies as True Dragon under the broadest of terms

Yes, but the -1,-3,-6 to the physical penalties can easily be argued to make them less powerful as they age, as it more than counteracts the +1,+2,+3 mental.

[Nanshork]

ummm.... it is the Dragon type due to the template, and unfortunately gains mental power with age aka... -1 physical, +1 mental stats at middle age, etc.

i think that qualifies as True Dragon under the broadest of terms

Yes, but the -1,-3,-6 to the physical penalties can easily be argued to make them less powerful as they age, as it more than counteracts the +1,+2,+3 mental.

Dragonwrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties remember?

[snakeman830]

ummm.... it is the Dragon type due to the template, and unfortunately gains mental power with age aka... -1 physical, +1 mental stats at middle age, etc.

i think that qualifies as True Dragon under the broadest of terms

Yes, but the -1,-3,-6 to the physical penalties can easily be argued to make them less powerful as they age, as it more than counteracts the +1,+2,+3 mental.

Dragonwrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties remember?

Read the whole thing.  The point here was that Half Dragon kobolds are definitely not True Dragons,despite having the 12 age categories and the Dragon type.

[Nanshork]

ummm.... it is the Dragon type due to the template, and unfortunately gains mental power with age aka... -1 physical, +1 mental stats at middle age, etc.

i think that qualifies as True Dragon under the broadest of terms

Yes, but the -1,-3,-6 to the physical penalties can easily be argued to make them less powerful as they age, as it more than counteracts the +1,+2,+3 mental.

Dragonwrought Kobolds don't take aging penalties remember?

Read the whole thing.  The point here was that Half Dragon kobolds are definitely not True Dragons,despite having the 12 age categories and the Dragon type.

Sorry but I refuse to read the whole thing, I think this whole thing is dumb and people just need to shut up about it.

I was just trying to correct what looked like a misreading of a feat.  I was mistaken, carry on. 

[zook1shoe]

*snip* The point here was that Half Dragon kobolds are definitely not True Dragons,despite having the 12 age categories and the Dragon type.

thats because there is text specifically saying they are not (page 56 Races of the Dragon). if that wasn't there, they would be since they qualify under the rule i previously quoted.

if that text wasn't there, why would they not? they have the proper age categories. they gain power as they age. they have the dragon type. those are ALL the requirements.

[snakeman830]

*snip* The point here was that Half Dragon kobolds are definitely not True Dragons,despite having the 12 age categories and the Dragon type.

thats because there is text specifically saying they are not (page 56 Races of the Dragon). if that wasn't there, they would be since they qualify under the rule i previously quoted.

if that text wasn't there, why would they not? they have the proper age categories. they gain power as they age. they have the dragon type. those are ALL the requirements.

Wow, it's like I just explained this to you and you ignored it.

They LOSE power as they age because the negation of aging penalties is a part of the Dragonwrought feat, not the Dragon type.  The penalty to the physical ability scores is larger than the bonus to the mental ability scores. (-1, -3, -6 opposed to +1,+2,+3)

[zook1shoe]

*snip* The point here was that Half Dragon kobolds are definitely not True Dragons,despite having the 12 age categories and the Dragon type.

thats because there is text specifically saying they are not (page 56 Races of the Dragon). if that wasn't there, they would be since they qualify under the rule i previously quoted.

if that text wasn't there, why would they not? they have the proper age categories. they gain power as they age. they have the dragon type. those are ALL the requirements.

Wow, it's like I just explained this to you and you ignored it.

They LOSE power as they age because the negation of aging penalties is a part of the Dragonwrought feat, not the Dragon type.  The penalty to the physical ability scores is larger than the bonus to the mental ability scores. (-1, -3, -6 opposed to +1,+2,+3)

sorry, the Nanshork's posts threw men off

i know that the Dragonwrought feat is was erases the loss of physical ability score decreases due to age.

many people here consider advancing their characters to Middle Age to gain that +1/-1 extremely powerful, since that gains them power over when they would lose since mental stats seem to do more overall for a character and can replace many of the physical ability scores with feats and spells.

i agree after middle age, they typically are not as good unless you optimize in the undead/construct/incorporeal realm.

[Jackinthegreen]

For what it's worth, I believe the designers meant True Dragons have actual dragon ages.  Wyrmling through Great Wyrm.  They gain power in the form of actual hit dice from aging.  Humanoids, including kobolds, are playable from Adulthood to Venerable.  What does a (dragonwrought) kobold gain by aging?  Only a few mental stats.  That's barely even comparable to the massive bonuses true dragons get during their lifetimes.  Likewise, I see no rules stating half-dragons have any other age categories besides the Adulthood through Venerable that most playable races tend to have.

I admit I haven't done much research, but can anyone provide a creature besides a dragon that actually gains hit dice through aging and is listed as such?

[RedWarlock]

My big question for all of this, why does it matter? Purely for justifying some TO player-character combinations originally designed for high-level monsters?

In my case, I see no harm granting age categories to kobolds, they're pure fluff that fits with the kobold's me-too characterization. It's only when we get into stuff about dragons of a certain category qualifying for epic feats that the whole thing goes to pot, and I would solve the whole thing by just stripping that qualifying rule out to begin with.

[littha]

Humanoids, including kobolds, are playable from Adulthood to Venerable. 

Half the problem is that Kobolds age from Wyrmling through Great Wyrm...

[Jackinthegreen]

Humanoids, including kobolds, are playable from Adulthood to Venerable. 

Half the problem is that Kobolds age from Wyrmling through Great Wyrm...

That'll teach me not to look at the kobold entry in RotD.

The fact still stands that they don't gain hit dice from aging, just a handful of mental stats.  So far I'm seeing true dragons are listed with hit dice and stats explicitly based on the twelve distinct age categories.  Kobolds are given the twelve age groups, and then there's the table underneath those stating the only times a kobold's stats change due to aging is the exact same way most other player races do: by going through middle age, old, and venerable.  Those three noted age transitions are the only ones that mean a damn thing.

Based on the actual stats I'd have to say that DWKs are definitely not true dragons.  If they had given an actual progression just like the true dragons' stat blocks then I'd be inclined to say DWK's are true dragons, but then people would really be bitching about how overpowered a single feat is even if it gave appropriate LA and racial HD enough to make the character unplayable.

[snakeman830]

The problem is that the "Advance through 12 age categories" is separate from "grows more powerful with age".  Dragonwrought Kobolds definitely do the later, it's the former that is the major sticking point.

If you read "Advance through 12 age categories" to mean "Advancement: By age", then DWK's are not.  If you read it to mean "must pass through 12 age categories in order", then they are.  The books themselves are silent on this distinction, and the fluff suggests that it may have been intended for DWK's to fit all the criteria for True Dragons, leaving RAI equally ambiguous.