Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?

[linklord231]

A Half-Dragon Kobold is explicitly a Lesser Dragon, even if it meets the criteria for True Dragonhood.  A DWK is not explicitly a LD.

Citation please?  Half-dragon kobolds meet more TD prerequisites than DWKs...

Draconomicon, pg 144.  Half Dragons are on the list of Lesser Dragons.  The specific rule that "Half Dragons are Lesser Dragons" overrules the general definition of what constitutes a True Dragon.

DWKs do gain more abilities and greater power as they age, even if they don't have a fancy chart for it.

And where do they get them from their draconic age categories?  Nowhere, that's where.  Gaining class levels or standard so-common-even-humans-have-it stat adjustments from the non-draconic age categories are not the same.  Not even close.  Otherwise, all half-dragons could be TDs.

They don't need to get them from their draconic age categories.  They only need to get them from somewhere.  Please give a page number supporting the idea that "becomes more powerful as they grow older" only refers to gaining Dragon Hit Dice by Advancing by Age.

like it does in normal English

But that isn't normal English. It's "WotC rules English".

Is there a WotC rules definition for "advance"?  It doesn't show up in any glossary I've checked.  Also, usually when they talk about Advancement as in Monster Advancement, they capitalize it like I just did.  In other uses, when they're referring to the normal English definition, they don't capitalize it. 

[Kethrian]

Draconomicon, pg 144.  Half Dragons are on the list of Lesser Dragons.  The specific rule that "Half Dragons are Lesser Dragons" overrules the general definition of what constitutes a True Dragon.

Again, backwards.  True Dragons are the specific, Lessers are the general.  All dragons automatically qualify for lesser status, while there are several specifics for trues, and all exceptions to those specifics are explicitly stated.  You still have not sufficiently explained why the RotD's list of all true dragons to that point does not include DWKs, especially when they are in the very same book.

DWKs do gain more abilities and greater power as they age, even if they don't have a fancy chart for it.

And where do they get them from their draconic age categories?  Nowhere, that's where.  Gaining class levels or standard so-common-even-humans-have-it stat adjustments from the non-draconic age categories are not the same.  Not even close.  Otherwise, all half-dragons could be TDs.

They don't need to get them from their draconic age categories.  They only need to get them from somewhere.  Please give a page number supporting the idea that "becomes more powerful as they grow older" only refers to gaining Dragon Hit Dice by Advancing by Age.

Um... how about Draconomicon?  All of it?  The whole freaking book?  It's got that name for a reason.  It does not describe any other way, through aging, for becoming more powerful as they grow older.  If it does, please show me where.

[SorO_Lost]

like it does in normal English

But that isn't normal English. It's "WotC rules English".

DWKs do gain more abilities and greater power as they age

The "greater power" part is debatable, but they do not gain more abilities. Maybe higher (thus "greater power"), but not more.
Lets see. A DWK ages to Wyrmling age category. It doesn't gain more abilities nor greater power. Then it ages to Very Young age category. Again, it doesn't gain more abilities nor greater power. Then it ages to Young age category. And once again, it gains nothing. Yeah, sure, it gains a little power when it reaches Middle Age, Old and Venerable, but it doesn't gain more abilities, so that's moot.

Actually that's not quite accurate.

They gain the mental boost at "Middle Age" per Aging Effects. The collaboration is they are 60 years old, or on their last year of being "Old". Then it's mid-way through "Ancient" and end of "Wyrm" for the other boosts but that's done by drawing lines from their age to the table. They don't actually gain any new abilities or traits upon obtaining a new draconic themed age category, likewise those boosts are tied to standard age terms and mechanics that any race (and arguably any monster) use, not their mimicked TD terms.

[ImperatorK]

Actually that's not quite accurate.

They gain the mental boost at "Middle Age" per Aging Effects. The collaboration is they are 60 years old, or on their last year of being "Old". Then it's mid-way through "Ancient" and end of "Wyrm" for the other boosts but that's done by drawing lines from their age to the table. They don't actually gain any new abilities or traits upon obtaining a new draconic themed age category, likewise those boosts are tied to standard age terms and mechanics that any race (and arguably any monster) use, not their mimicked TD terms.

But... that's what I said. O.o

Although I personally do not buy that gaining boosts to mental stats through aging is considered "gaining greater power", I don't say that it can't be interpreted as such (no matter how stretched that argument is). But even then DWKs still don't do the other thing that qualifies as a TD, which is "gain more abilities as they age".

[linklord231]

Draconomicon, pg 144.  Half Dragons are on the list of Lesser Dragons.  The specific rule that "Half Dragons are Lesser Dragons" overrules the general definition of what constitutes a True Dragon.

Again, backwards.  True Dragons are the specific, Lessers are the general.  All dragons automatically qualify for lesser status, while there are several specifics for trues, and all exceptions to those specifics are explicitly stated.  You still have not sufficiently explained why the RotD's list of all true dragons to that point does not include DWKs, especially when they are in the very same book.

DWKs do gain more abilities and greater power as they age, even if they don't have a fancy chart for it.

And where do they get them from their draconic age categories?  Nowhere, that's where.  Gaining class levels or standard so-common-even-humans-have-it stat adjustments from the non-draconic age categories are not the same.  Not even close.  Otherwise, all half-dragons could be TDs.

They don't need to get them from their draconic age categories.  They only need to get them from somewhere.  Please give a page number supporting the idea that "becomes more powerful as they grow older" only refers to gaining Dragon Hit Dice by Advancing by Age.

Um... how about Draconomicon?  All of it?  The whole freaking book?  It's got that name for a reason.  It does not describe any other way, through aging, for becoming more powerful as they grow older.  If it does, please show me where.

The very first thing you check for when determining if something is a Lesser Dragon is "Is this already a True Dragon?"  Evidenced by "Other creatures of the Dragon type..." (Drac, pg 4), emphasis mine. 
We're seriously going back to the list again?  I already put forth 2 reasons as to why DWKs are not on the list, neither of which has been addressed yet.  First, DWKs are a niche case and the designers couldn't be bothered to include space on the list for them, any more than they included separate entries for Celestial Gold Dragons, Paragon Black Dragons, or any other niche case.  Second, and more importantly, the list only includes published True Dragons.  There has never, ever been a Kobold with the Dragonwrought feat published in any WotC source.  They gave us Kobolds, they gave us Dragonwrought, but never showed us exactly what a Dragonwrought Kobold looks like. 

And I'm sorry, you're going to have to be a bit more specific than "the whole freaking book."  I read it too, and I didn't see anything that convinced me that the only way for a True Dragon to become more powerful as it grows older is to Advance by Hit Dice by aging.  At the end of the second paragraph of the page 4 sidebar, we are given the rule that "True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older."  Then, in a completely different paragraph, we have the rule that True Dragons also happen to advance through age categories. 

[ImperatorK]

And also, on page 144, it is stated that LDs have fixed LAs and don't have a build-in progression due to age. That makes DWKs LDs.

Is there a WotC rules definition for "advance"?

Nope. But the only rules relevant "advance" is used as "gains class levels", "gains HD" and "gains templates" in Improving Monsters section. Class levels and templates have no relevance to age. HDs on the other hand do, because all TDs gain HD as they age.

[Kethrian]

The very first thing you check for when determining if something is a Lesser Dragon is "Is this already a True Dragon?"  Evidenced by "Other creatures of the Dragon type..." (Drac, pg 4), emphasis mine. 

Of course when you're referencing a single subcategory, everything else will be "other".  And when checking if something is a true dragon, the first thing you check for is "Do any books explicitly call it a true dragon?".  If not, guess what, there's a whole freaking list of things to look for, which DWKs don't meet the requirements for.  EVERY TRUE DRAGON WHICH MAY FALL SHORT IN MEETING THOSE REQUIREMENTS IS STILL EXPLICITLY EXPLAINED AS BEING A TRUE DRAGON.

We're seriously going back to the list again?  I already put forth 2 reasons as to why DWKs are not on the list, neither of which has been addressed yet.  First, DWKs are a niche case and the designers couldn't be bothered to include space on the list for them, any more than they included separate entries for Celestial Gold Dragons, Paragon Black Dragons, or any other niche case.

If they couldn't be bothered to put them on the all-encompasing list that only excludes true dragons which have been given templates which don't change their type, then I guess DWKs, which are not already true dragons given a template which does not change their type, aren't true dragons.  Note that any true dragon which has been templated in such a way that they are no longer dragon type, they are no longer true dragons.  So it looks like templates can take away true dragon status, but not give it.

Second, and more importantly, the list only includes published True Dragons.  There has never, ever been a Kobold with the Dragonwrought feat published in any WotC source.  They gave us Kobolds, they gave us Dragonwrought, but never showed us exactly what a Dragonwrought Kobold looks like. 

Sure they did.  There's an illustration right beside the feat.  That's what a DWK looks like.  No, they did not bother to make an example stat block, but that's fine, because the feat has no mention of them being true dragons, only dragons.

And I'm sorry, you're going to have to be a bit more specific than "the whole freaking book."  I read it too, and I didn't see anything that convinced me that the only way for a True Dragon to become more powerful as it grows older is to Advance by Hit Dice by aging.  At the end of the second paragraph of the page 4 sidebar, we are given the rule that "True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older."  Then, in a completely different paragraph, we have the rule that True Dragons also happen to advance through age categories.

In the very same paragraph as "True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older", they give 10 examples.  DWKs don't show any kind of advancement like them.  If they aren't anything like the examples given in the very line you love to quote, how can they be considered the same?

[Mister Lamp]

A Half-Dragon Kobold is explicitly a Lesser Dragon, even if it meets the criteria for True Dragonhood.  A DWK is not explicitly a LD.

Citation please?  Half-dragon kobolds meet more TD prerequisites than DWKs...

Draconomicon, pg 144.  Half Dragons are on the list of Lesser Dragons.  The specific rule that "Half Dragons are Lesser Dragons" overrules the general definition of what constitutes a True Dragon.

Half Dragons are on a list titled Template. The only larger list it is under is "Table 3-22: Additional Level Adjustments", This list has LA for TDs, LDs, and Templates. Half-Dragons are "under" the LD list in the sense of direction, but not in terms of what list they are on. If the Template list is a subsection of the LD list, then Dracoliches (who begin as just a Dragon, and who becomes Undead, is a LD.) are LDs. So a reanimated Red Dragon,whose type is no longer Dragon, is just as much a Dragon as a Pseudodragon, whose type is.

[ImperatorK]

We should make a list of all the mechanical things that TDs have in common. Any official exceptions shouldn't be included, for example being able to fly (Lung Wang Dragons can't fly).

Question:

They range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm. The size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety.

Is there a TD who doesn't meet the above quoted (from SRD) requirement?

[Halinn]

Because of the last part of that, it's meaningless. "Varies according to ... variety" means that it's simple to state that DWKs don't have to meet that definition.

[Bauglir]

White dragons are too small at Great Wyrm, I believe.

[betrayor]

Also steel Dragons are Huge when in Great Wyrm status,definetely the smaller true dragons.....

[linklord231]

We should make a list of all the mechanical things that TDs have in common. Any official exceptions shouldn't be included, for example being able to fly (Lung Wang Dragons can't fly).

My very first post in this thread is an attempt to do just that.  Let me know if I missed anything.

[Mister Lamp]

We should make a list of all the mechanical things that TDs have in common. Any official exceptions shouldn't be included, for example being able to fly (Lung Wang Dragons can't fly).

My very first post in this thread is an attempt to do just that.  Let me know if I missed anything.

You list Lung Dragons as an exception to DR. This isn't true. Chiang Lung, Li Lung, Lung Wang, Pan Lung, Shen Lung, T'ien Lung, and Tun Mi Lung all have DR. Yu Lung's do not have printed DR, however Yu Lungs are funky. They function as the infant form for all Lung dragons, so they do gain DR as they age.

[SorO_Lost]

If you account for Magic/Psionic Transparency every single one of those gains SR as well.

All real TDs have keen senses, literally. The TD entry gives it to them so anything listed as such has Keen Senses & Blindsense. It means despite Lung sporting the superior Blindsight trait, they have Blindsense as well. If the Incarnum and Dragon Mag Dragons are assumed TD by way of variable LA and HD/Age progression per Dragonic PCs they gain it as well. Technically each one can attempt to Crush an opponent after obtaining Huge size as well and so on.

Incarnum as noted isn't listed as a TD, so they all have direct immunity to at least one forum of attack, but even the Incarnum sports indirect immunity by way of inherent melds (pauldrons of health and such). So it's an accurate statement to say even under the above assumption, through inherent means they are immune to at least one form of attack.

Each and every single one of them is capable of inherently using magic in some manner. Over half gain real spellcasting, and all but two gain SLAs. One being the Incarnum who under transparency actually does cast spells, and the other being the Rattelyr whose Hood functions as a free action Spell Turning spell based on his HD. In any case, each one has a innate Su trait and can gain the benefit of spells in some manner whether offensively or defensively.

Of course, you know. The whole AGE THING I KEEP MENTIONING which is the only reason you can attempt to say an Incarnum is even a TD through it's unlisted as such (see house rule #1, assume you can quality for a race).

There is probably others. The DR/SR thing has always been a big deal for me. Draco outright says all TDs gain it, and as a matter of fact every single TD-Like entry I have read gives it.

[Mister Lamp]

*Snip for space*

There is probably others. The DR/SR thing has always been a big deal for me. Draco outright says all TDs gain it, and as a matter of fact every single TD-Like entry I have read gives it.

The only one that doesn't that I've seen is the Yu Lung, and using that as a justification is like saying "The wyrmling form of a Gold Dragon has no DR, so that's an exception"

[ImperatorK]

Because of the last part of that, it's meaningless. "Varies according to ... variety" means that it's simple to state that DWKs don't have to meet that definition.

Actually, no. Their size varies, which means it is different, according to age and variety. DWKs stay small all the time.

White dragons are too small at Great Wyrm, I believe.

Yes, 85 ft. in length. So that qualifier is irrelevant. But growing in size still is.

Also steel Dragons are Huge when in Great Wyrm status,definetely the smaller true dragons.....

But they still grow.

My very first post in this thread is an attempt to do just that.  Let me know if I missed anything.

Did you include "gains HD through aging" or "grows in size through aging"?

[linklord231]

Did you include "gains HD through aging" or "grows in size through aging"?

Reposting:
True Dragons: 
1.   Advance through age categories (Drac, pg 4)
2.    “Become more powerful as they grow older” (Drac, pg 4)
3.    Resembles a reptile at first glance.  It has a muscular body, a long, thick neck, a horned or frilled head with a toothy mouth, and a sinuous tail. The creature walks on four powerful legs with clawed feet, and it flies using its vast, batlike wings. Heavy scales cover a dragon from the tip of its tail to end of its snout. (Drac, pg 5)
4.   Every true dragon, no matter how large or small, has exactly 13 cervical vertebrae, 12 thoracic vertebrae, 7 lumbar vertebrae, and 36 caudal vertebrae. (Drac, pg 8)
5.   All true dragons are endothermic. (Drac, pg 9)
6.   The shortest-lived true dragon, the white, can live as long as 2,100 years. The true dragon species that lives the longest is the gold; Guillaume and Cirjon put the gold’s maximum age at 4,400 years. (Drac, pg 15)
7.   Can swim (Drac, pg 21)
8.   Every true dragon is immune to at least one type of elemental energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire) (Drac, pg 22)
9.   True dragons have superb internal temperature regulation and seldom suffer from the effects of excessive heat or cold. (Drac, pg 22*)
10.   True dragons also develop a supernatural resistance to physical blows, which can prevent nonmagical weapons from harming them at all. (Drac, pg 22*)
11.   Thanks to their innately magical nature, true dragons also develop the power to shrug off the effects of spells. Older dragons ignore spell assaults from all but the most powerful magical practitioners. (Drac, pg 22*)
12.   *Also on pg 22 is a sidebar that clarifies all true dragons do not have to make Fort saves every 10 minutes as long as the temperature is between -40 and 140 Farenheit, develop damage reduction as they age, and develop spell resistance as they age.
13.   All true dragons have great patience. (Drac, pg 25)
14.   True dragons fall into two broad categories: chromatic and metallic. (Drac, pg 36)
15.   All true dragons have the potential to use arcane magic. (DoE, pg 30)
16.   True dragons are winged, reptilelike creatures of ancient lineage. They are known and feared for their size, physical prowess, and magical abilities. (MM1, pg 68)
17.   The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type) fall into two broad categories: chromatic and metallic.  (MM1, pg 68)
18.   All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.)  (MM1, pg 68)
19.   True dragons gain spellcasting power as they age… (RotD, 111)

So to answer your question, I did include advancement through age categories (point 1), but I must have missed the "range in size" bit.  So add

20.   Range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm. The size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety. (MM1, pg 68)

Unfortunately, since several types of True Dragon (eg White, Steel, etc) don't meet this point , it is useless when determining the definition of True Dragon. 

[ImperatorK]

Ah, sorry. I looked up your first post, but I didn't see a list and I didn't bother searching further.

So to answer your question, I did include advancement through age categories (point 1)

Except that I said "gains HD through aging", but I see you included it in Rebuttals.
In order for DWKs to qualify, "gains HD through aging" must be proven to not be a requirement.

[linklord231]

Ah, sorry. I looked up your first post, but I didn't see a list and I didn't bother searching further.

So to answer your question, I did include advancement through age categories (point 1)

Except that I said "gains HD through aging", but I see you included it in Rebuttals.
In order for DWKs to qualify, "gains HD through aging" must be proven to not be a requirement.

Or that Dragonwrought Kobolds meet the requirement, but yes. 
However, I'm not 100% convinced that "advance through age categories" can only mean "gains HD through aging."  There are numerous places where the authors used "advance" to mean "progress through in order" and not Monster Advancement.  But I will definitely respect anyone who says "I do not consider DWKs to be True Dragons by RAW because they do not gain HD by aging."  All I ask is for those people to also accept the claim that "DWKs can be considered to be True Dragons by RAW because 'advance through age categories' might not mean 'gains HD by aging.'"