Imp Uncanny Dodge basically makes you immune to an Assassin's Death Attack?

[ksbsnowowl]

Death Attack
If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). ...

So I've got a gestalt viking-themed game.  Of four players and one NPC, 4 of them have levels in Barbarian, Rogue, or Scout.  Scout alone only grants Uncanny Dodge, not improved uncanny dodge, but due to this, I have learned that I can't reliably use Sneak Attack as a threat versus my party.

One of the big bad guys coming up soon was supposed to be a Tanarukk Assassin 10 (Tanarukk have 5 outsider HD, and thus could qualify immediately for Assassin).  With Tanarukk being CR 2, a 10th level Assassin is CR 12 (or Gestalt CR 11), as a 15 HD creature.  My party is just on the cusp of 10th level, and will likely be 11th by the time they face this Assassin foe.

However, reading over the assassin, it appears that an assassin's death attack is also nigh useless against a party made up like mine is, because it triggers on a sneak attack, which basically can't be performed by an opponent of an appropriate CR for my party...

Is there anything that enhances a sneak attacker's ability to overcome either uncanny dodge or improved uncanny dodge, besides more levels in a sneak attack granting class?

I might have to rebuild this bad-guy as a scout or something...  Scout 5//Assassin 5 might work...

Although, thinking about it now, Assassin (or Rogue) should be non-associated class levels for a brutish melee opponent like a Tanarukk, so I should be able to get 4 levels for the cost of +2 CR... (technically 5 levels for the cost of +2.5 CR, which the rules never state if that should be +2 or +3 CR...)

Tanarukk Rogue 4 is CR 4; Tanarukk Rogue 4/Assassin 10 is CR 13 or 14, or Gestalt CR 12 or 13... and could flank members of a 10th level party...  Hmmm....

[Jackinthegreen]

I don't think you have to worry about Improved Uncanny Dodge at least.  Normal might still be a problem.

At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him...

If your bad guy relies on the flanking then of course it'll be a problem.  If not though, and it sounds like a solo encounter anyway, then all you have to do is make sure he can deny them Dex bonuses.  It's a bit harder since you can't rely on catching them flat-footed or attacking while invisible, but there are ways of doing it.

A problem of course is your party might cry BS on some of the more clever solutions to the sneak attack problem.  They've specifically used classes with uncanny dodge in hopes of avoiding SA damage, so there's that fine line between "this guy still knows how to hit your weak points" and "I'm screwing you over."

[ksbsnowowl]

I don't think you have to worry about Improved Uncanny Dodge at least.  Normal might still be a problem.

At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him...

If your bad guy relies on the flanking then of course it'll be a problem.  If not though, and it sounds like a solo encounter anyway, then all you have to do is make sure he can deny them Dex bonuses.  It's a bit harder since you can't rely on catching them flat-footed or attacking while invisible, but there are ways of doing it.

A problem of course is your party might cry BS on some of the more clever solutions to the sneak attack problem.  They've specifically used classes with uncanny dodge in hopes of avoiding SA damage, so there's that fine line between "this guy still knows how to hit your weak points" and "I'm screwing you over."

True.  What are the other means of denying Dex?

Balancing (via grease, etc) - doesn't work, causes you to be flat-footed, and UD provides that you retain Dex to AC even if flat-footed.
Climbing
Stunned
Helpless
Held/Grappled/Pinned
Immobilized (new condition as of MM5)

Any others means?

[snakeman830]

Paralyzed?

As an aside, Immobilized was introduced in Tome of Magic.

[darqueseid]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Feint

These rules are often over looked... Would this help? just max his bluff and if you have an extra feat for it, improved feint is nice... 

feint as a move action, then get a standard action melee + sneak attack.

[ksbsnowowl]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Feint

These rules are often over looked... Would this help? just max his bluff and if you have an extra feat for it, improved feint is nice... 

feint as a move action, then get a standard action melee + sneak attack.

I'll have to rebuild him a bit.  Here is his build as of right now:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3432.0

He only has a +4 Bluff Modifier, but since recalling that I should get two "free" additional levels due to the Non-associated class thing, I can throw on two levels of Rogue for 20 more skill points, max out bluff, and call it good.

I do sort of feel dirty though, saying that a 17 HD creature with 12 class levels is only CR 12...

Is there anything other than 6 levels (or whatever it is) of Beguiler that can shorten the Bluff time to a free action?

Oh!  Just had an idea...  I was never really one for Skill Tricks, but my party beguiler took a few, and it's hard to say no once they've already done it.  But he has Group Fakeout...   This might be a good skill trick for this assassin to pick up.  Round 1, attack and do a group fakeout; Round 2, full attack for sneak attacks...

He'll have the skill points to spare.  Two levels of Rogue will get him 20 skill points.  Fifteen of those will max out bluff.  Then he can spend the rest of a skill trick or two, and bumping up something like Tumble.

[Pencil]

Also not being able to notice the attacker will result in no DEX from your part.An example from RulesHandbook

[RedWarlock]

He only has a +4 Bluff Modifier, but since recalling that I should get two "free" additional levels due to the Non-associated class thing, I can throw on two levels of Rogue for 20 more skill points, max out bluff, and call it good.

I do sort of feel dirty though, saying that a 17 HD creature with 12 class levels is only CR 12...

I thought the non-associated class levels thing eventually ran out, when the actual class levels outnumber the base CR by double or something.. I'm not at my books to check, though.

[ksbsnowowl]

I thought the non-associated class levels thing eventually ran out, when the actual class levels outnumber the base CR by double or something.. I'm not at my books to check, though.

It runs out when the non-associated levels equal the creature's racial HD.  I have completely forgotten to account for non-associated levels, and as such, 5 sneaky class levels should only count as half a CR each.  He was a CR 2 creature with 10 levels, and I wrongly assigned a CR of 12 to that, forgetting about the non-associated level rules.  As such, I get two "free" levels to play with to get him back up to CR 12.

Also not being able to notice the attacker will result in no DEX from your part. An example from Rules Handbook

Can you give me an example of how this is achieved?  I'm assuming something like blinding them, but isn't that the same as being struck by an invisible attacker (and thus Dex to AC would be retained)?

[Pencil]

Nothing relevant was written here.

[darqueseid]

pencil, did you read the topic or OP?

From the SRD:
Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

They have uncanny dodge(they must if they have improved uncanny dodge) so they retain thier dex from invis attackers.

[Pencil]

epic fail

[ksbsnowowl]

epic fail

Nat 1's have a 5% chance of occurring. 

Basically, it seems that feinting will be the only reliable method of sneak attacking most of the party, though the druid//sorc and the animal companions could be sneaked easily from invisibility, and they as well as two other scout characters could be flanked (though this will be a solo encounter, most likely).  Except for once per combat use of group fake-out, feinting will be only once per round, which isn't that great.  But, it does appear to give me the ability to utilize Death Attack (probably vs the NPC character, as a means of demoralizing the remainder of the party, rather than killing someone's fun, literally).  The assassin will also be using poison, so that will be an additional danger to the party.

In answer to one of my previous questions, Invisible Blade is another method of feinting as a free action, but that will class will not be a possibility for this character.

[phaedrusxy]

If they detect the assassin, he can't use Death Attack. I don't think he could Feint without being detected.

While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy.

[ksbsnowowl]

If they detect the assassin, he can't use Death Attack. I don't think he could Feint without being detected.

So, basically Uncanny Dodge makes you immune to Death Attack, unless the assassin catches you while climbing (most of my party can fly), or while you are grappled or helpless...
Awesome...

[phaedrusxy]

If they detect the assassin, he can't use Death Attack. I don't think he could Feint without being detected.

So, basically Uncanny Dodge makes you immune to Death Attack, unless the assassin catches you while climbing (most of my party can fly), or while you are grappled or helpless...
Awesome...

Yeah, there are a million ways to screw over rogues, and even more for assassins. For instance, any form of concealment also makes you immune to both Sneak and Death Attack. As if the Smoking enhancement weren't already awesome just for the 20% miss chance.

And the idiots at pathfinder thought rogues needed nerfing. 

[ksbsnowowl]

Hmmm..... Does Blink work in 3.5 to trigger sneak attack against someone with Uncanny Dodge?  I'm guessing no, but figured I'd better ask.

Debating if I should scrap most of the Assassin levels (keep at least one for Poison Use) and make him a Swift Ambusher.  That way he'd get at least 3d6 skirmish damage...  He'd lose out on most of the spells though...

There's also the nearly worthless feat from PHB2 that activates sneak attack on a crit...  Maybe I should make this an invisible blade...

[ksbsnowowl]

Debating if I should scrap most of the Assassin levels (keep at least one for Poison Use) and make him a Swift Ambusher.  That way he'd get at least 3d6 skirmish damage...  He'd lose out on most of the spells though...

So I had an idea on the drive home.  It would cut down on his HP's somewhat, but I could give him one level in Scout, one level in Assassin, and then just advance him in Unseen Seer (improving his assassin casting and skirmish damage).

This would give him the assassin's poison use (which will be a big deal vs the PC's, I think), as well as a weak sneak attack and death attack, should the opportunity arise to use it, but it would give him +5d6 Skirmish damage, which doesn't care about Uncanny Dodge.  It would also give him more skill points (though for story reasons, I'd have to burn quite a few of them cross-class into UMD).  He could even take Hunter's Eye as his first Advanced Learning, so when the situation for sneak attack does arise, he can up the damage he does to nearly what it would have been with the old build.

The only minor hang-up is that he never has Spellcraft as a class skill, but he has lots of racial skill points to burn cross-class anyway, so that isn't really much of a problem.  That, and not getting UMD and Tumble as class skills for most of his levels.

[ksbsnowowl]

More thought and rumination, and I realized the non-associated class rules would let me squeeze out one more level, making him a Tanarukk scout 1/assassin 1/wiz (conjurer) 1/unseen seer 10 for a total CR of 12 (Gestalt CR 11). He will have 11th level wizard casting, with a caster level of 15 (w/ practiced spellcaster).  I will also make him a focused conjurer with abrupt jaunt, and the 5th level spell from Complete Mage that let's you dimension door once per round as a move action.  He will also have "true haste" - 3.0 haste as a 5th level spell.

That, combined with his +5d6 skirmish on a full attack, should make him a worthy opponent.
I'll probably ban evocation, enchantment, and necromancy (as much as it will hurt to give up vampiric touch and it's extra HP's).

[darqueseid]

can you not have your bad guy study from hiding? or even talk with people first for a couple rounds and lead out with a death attack.  Even finagle a way for him to join the party and then strike when thier backs are turned (joining the party also lets you get at the casters more readily)?

Death attack may have its limits, but there are lots of ways to use it effectively.  Also he doesn't have to use the death version on the PCs, you could have him paralyze instead.   Perhaps he merely needs to capture somone..