Kobold Dagger-Wielding Assassin Help! :D

[Amor]

Alright, not looking for something broken and jumping through a bunch of loop holes, but there's always been a reoccurring character I tend to play when I can get away with it, a kobold rogue specializing in a pair of daggers and stealthing his way into infamy.  I did it a lot in 4th edition, because kobolds are so deliciously overpowered, but I've always enjoyed 3.5 more and I'd like to create the character concept there - especially since I'm finally getting to play him in a 3.5 game.  So far, I've got the build as Rogue 3 (using Kobold rogue substitution levels for some additional tricks and keeping trap skills up while multiclassing), Hit and Run Fighter 2/Invisible Blade 5, making use of the Surprising Riposte feat and, eventually staggering strike to shut down whoever he's facing.  At the moment, I'm also planning on taking the dragonwrought feat (choosing copper, for +2 hide) as his first level feat, although he'll be starting at young adult age and not abusing it for the venerable skill boosts.  Also assuming the writter's suggested replacements for Invisible Blade are in use (Weapon Finesse, TWF, and WF: Dagger).

My questions are three-fold: Is Dragonwrought worth a feat to become dragon (gaining immunities to any spell targetting humanoid, immunity to paralysis and sleep effects, as well as other potential kobold goodies), even if you don't take later feats to gain flight?

Secondly, I plan for him to be using a pair of dragonfang daggers as his main weapons, probably selecting cold as its damage type.  I'm pondering just what to make these daggers, though, especially since for the campaign I'm in I'm making it apart of his backstory that he lost them and is searching to reclaim them.  I'm thinking they'd be +3/4 enhancement worth for this, and right now leaning towards one being a +1 defensive, deadly precision dagger, and the other...  I dunno, something for his 'main hand' though.

Lastly...  How do I cap off this build?  I'm completely stumped on what to flesh out the last ten levels with, and am leaning towards rogue (two rogue abilities, large pool of skills, 8th level kobold substitution to get some excellent maneuverability if anyone tries to fry him with an AoE),  or assassin (spells, hide in plain sight and poison use...  Death Attack likely won't be doing much here).  Although, the Unseen Hand of the Masters, or whatever it is, from Dragon Magic also seems flavorful and could work, what is everyone's opinion on it?

Thanks for any help or suggestions you may have for me to iron out this concept finally!

[muktidata]

If you want Rogue, use Warning and Eager on your daggers - especially if you're dual wielding. Get your Init as high as possible and a form of swift action mobility. Flat-footed = SA opportunity for you. Even if you're sneaking around and get spotted, having a high Initiative will give you the chance to jump and kill them or get the heck out of Dodge.

As for the last ten levels - what do you want to do again? Spells are always good Arcane Swordsage?

[Amor]

If you want Rogue, use Warning and Eager on your daggers - especially if you're dual wielding. Get your Init as high as possible and a form of swift action mobility. Flat-footed = SA opportunity for you. Even if you're sneaking around and get spotted, having a high Initiative will give you the chance to jump and kill them or get the heck out of Dodge.

As for the last ten levels - what do you want to do again? Spells are always good Arcane Swordsage?

If I was going to go the magical assassin route, I'd probably take a level of sorcerer and go into daggerspell mage for the last levels - although that would be better suited by dropping the levels of fighter and invisible blade and going with unseen seer/daggerspell mage, which isn't exactly what I want.  I'm leaning towards a non-gish/magic sort of rogue, if I can, something like assassin spellcasting is probably as far as I'd take it.

'Sides, Arcane Swordsage is broken, broken, broken. xD

[phaedrusxy]

A two-level dip (at least) into Unarmed Swordsage is practically mandatory for stealthy characters, though (if ToB is allowed).

[Amor]

I've definitely thought about that, even if his wisdom for the campaign I'm playing is tanked (a whopping six), but access to assassin's stance and some maneuvers could certainly help out if I can justify him learning it in character.  It's definitely on the table, especially for my concept of the character outside of this campaign, but I wouldn't be adverse to dropping it if other ideas came to mind.

Edit: I think I'm definately going to keep the dragonwrought feat, mostly for the immunities.  Being immune to sleep, paralyze, and charm/hold/dominate person spells is a big help considering this character will most likely have a really bad will save (between his low wisdom and slow advancement).

[Maat Mons]

Can you use the variant kobold from the Races of Destiny web enhancement?  The slight build ability gives you an extra +4 to hide. 

Can you use the variant kobolds from Unearthed Arcana?  Desert kobold and jungle kobold both shift the normal constitution penalty to a mental ability score. 

[Amor]

Probably should have specified.  Yes, he is a desert kobold already, which is one of the reasons his wisdom is so bloody low.  The stats for the game he's in aren't that high (since the concept is the party is a group of everday monsters who, by some circumstance, start to become adventures).  It used an array of 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, 8, and I placed them as so (with desert kobold racial mods); Str 6, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 6, Cha 8.  I'm not sure if the web enhancement is usable or not, but if it is, definately going for the slight build and perhaps natural attacks; although for flavor reasons he'll probably only attack with his daggers rather than going dagger/dagger/bite.

[phaedrusxy]

I've definitely thought about that, even if his wisdom for the campaign I'm playing is tanked (a whopping six), but access to assassin's stance and some maneuvers could certainly help out if I can justify him learning it in character.  It's definitely on the table, especially for my concept of the character outside of this campaign, but I wouldn't be adverse to dropping it if other ideas came to mind.

Edit: I think I'm definately going to keep the dragonwrought feat, mostly for the immunities.  Being immune to sleep, paralyze, and charm/hold/dominate person spells is a big help considering this character will most likely have a really bad will save (between his low wisdom and slow advancement).

Deformity (Madness) makes you totally immune to all mind-affecting effects. It has a prereq (Willing Deformity), but is better than dragonwrought, if that's all you want.

And yeah, swordsage is still well worth it with a low wisdom. None of the maneuvers I ever choose have a saving throw, so all you lose is Wis to AC, which isn't a big deal.

[Amor]

Dragonwrought fits more with the kobold thing, and would the madness deformity disqualify you from Craven?  I'm not sure if fear is a mind-affecting effect, and thus bars entry.

Also if I have a DM that's ok with Swordsages not starting with a 1st level stance, I could get away with just a single level dip!

[Dawnmor]

Well this time atleast 2 or 3 people mentioned Swordsage but in the wrong variants.

If you want to go with a Dual weilding assassin type, just go Pure Swordsage, Take daggers, boost strength, Dex, Wis.  Grab shadowblade feat (Add dex to damage), Grab the Two weapon fighting feats from PHB and PHB2 (I think thats where I remember most of the feats from) and your good as gold.

The 9th level shadowhand ability that the swordsage gets is the ability to do 15d6 damage in addition to Stat damage.  As a Two weapon fighter type, you get 2x the chances to pull off the damage.  Max out Hide and Move silently.  You wont get sneak attack but it still works.

But if you wish to do Rogue, switch things to ROGUE character, take the Two weapon fighting feats from both sources, then go into assassin PRC itself?

If you were higher level I could suggest a few templates to take, Or Pixie, Nat Invis WHEW! worth it!!.  But you need ECL 5 .

[phaedrusxy]

Well this time atleast 2 or 3 people mentioned Swordsage but in the wrong variants.

If you want to go with a Dual weilding assassin type, just go Pure Swordsage,

If you're only dipping, why would you ever go with a "pure" swordsage rather than the unarmed variant? The unarmed variant is like getting something for nothing, basically, since all you lose is light armor proficiency (which you'll be getting from somewhere else).

[Amor]

I don't go pure swordsage because I like the skill points, trap skills, and aesthetic of rogue?  After all, this character needs to be able to handle traps (because, like I said, a kobold assassin who's stopped or killed by a trap is a shameful thing indeed), and UMD is also awesome - both things that swordsage lacks in its skill package.  One or two level dip into this build may work, but over all I want the feel and build to be based off of a rogueish sort of mentality, leaning slightly towards the combat side (mostly due to the level dips into Hit and Run Fighter and picking up Invisible Blade).

That seems to be a vote towards assassin at the end of this build though.  Hmmm, although I'll miss the two rogue special abilities I would have gotten~

[phaedrusxy]

I don't go pure swordsage because I like the skill points, trap skills, and aesthetic of rogue? 

You misunderstand. My comment was directed at Dawnmor, not you, hence why I quoted him. I wasn't advocating that you should change over to a swordsage build.

I was saying that if you (anyone) dips swordsage in a build, there is almost no reason at all to ever use the "standard" swordsage over the "unarmed" variant. If the unarmed variant is allowed, you should always use it. Even if for some reason you're not getting light armor proficiency from somewhere else, you should still use the unarmed variant, because a mithril chain shirt has an armor check penalty of 0, meaning you lose nothing for wearing it when you're not proficient with it.

So yeah... as far as I'm concerned, unarmed swordsage is the only swordsage that exists. The arcane one is too broken to use, and the unarmed one is superior to the "standard" one in all cases.

As far as finding and disabling traps, you're losing almost nothing by dipping swordsage, and gaining a lot. You're losing 2-4 skill points, and gaining the ability to teleport, turn greater invisible as a swift action, and potentially a lot of other things, an unlimited number of times per day. Heck, pick up Distracting Ember, and swordsage can even help you with traps. You can use the elemental to set them off, rather than wasting time disabling them.

[Amor]

That line was in reply to Dawnmor as well, sorry. xD

[phaedrusxy]

That line was in reply to Dawnmor as well, sorry. xD

[Dawnmor]

to each there own.  However you said CRAFT (traps) not the actual trap finding ability itself, clear this up before you lay into people who are trying to help you.

This is now a black listed thread.

[Amor]

Alright, so the game is moving along at its pace, and my kobold is now dragonwrought and a rogue, and has gotten approval to use weapon finesse and two-weapon fighting instead of point-blank shot and far throw for Invisible Blade, and Uncanny Feint counts as Improved Feint for the purposes of the Surprising Riposte feat.

I've now come to a cross on if I want to take a second level of fighter before level 6 (going rogue 3/fighter 2 instead of rogue 4/fighter 1), in order to get staggering strike at level six.  So far my planned progression is like this, and if I go with the second level of fighter, will be taking Combat Expertise there and taking Staggering Strike at level six;

0: Warrior, BAB 1, Weapon Finesse (the game started us off at zero level with an NPC class described by our races monster entry, with weapon finesse swapped for alertness in my case.  This is essentially a free level + feat)
1: Rogue, BAB 1, Dragonwrought, Sneak Attack +1d6
2: Hit and Run Fighter 1, BAB 2, Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Rogue 2, BAB 3, Evasion, Weapon Focus: Dagger
4: Rogue 3, BAB 4, Penetrating Strike, Sneak Attack +2d6
5: Rogue 4, BAB 5, Uncanny Dodge
6: Invisible Blade 1, BAB 6, Combat Expertise, Unfetted Defense, Sneak Attack +3d6
7: Invisible Blade 2, BAB 7, Bleeding Wound
8: Invisible Blade 3, BAB 8, Uncanny Feint (Move Action, now qualifies for Surprising Riposte), Sneak Attack +4d6.
9: Invisible Blade 4, BAB 9, Surprising Riposte, Feint Mastery
10: Invisible Blade 5, BAB 10, Uncanny Feint (Free Action), Sneak Attack +5d6

[phaedrusxy]

Staggering Strike is so good it is banned by some DMs. So yeah, I think that's a good option.

[Amor]

Staggering Strike is so good it is banned by some DMs. So yeah, I think that's a good option.

Heaven forbid that a class other than a spellcaster gets decent, reliable control options. xD

[emaNsdrawkcaB]

Heaven forbid that a class other than a spellcaster gets decent, reliable control options. xD

+1