Author Topic: What do you usually ban in your games?  (Read 54671 times)

Offline caelic

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2012, 01:07:39 PM »
Mechanically yes but I don't think I have ever seen anyone argue that was the intended effect...


Of course not.  That doesn't mean we can't chuckle over the meme that evolved.

Offline Libertad

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2012, 02:01:26 PM »

A Swordsage may be excused by the same line of thinking. But when a Conan-type barbarian chieftain knocks opponents down by slamming his nonmagical hammer into the ground, we have somehow moved from D&D to Diablo 3.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I'm all in favor of having non-casters having a large number of tricks and ways to replicate "magic abilities," and I think that such an avenue would be an improvement to the viability of characters who want to play something other than a spellcaster:

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Offline Dkonen

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2012, 04:30:33 PM »
Tome of Battle-not for flavor or for caster supremacy, but because I don't want to add yet another mechanic to the game (maneuvers).

Villain/Hero specific books that contradict the theme of the game, no villain source if it's a "goodly" campaign (ex: Champions of Ruin and the like) no hero source if it's an "evil" campaign.

BoVD/BoED, mostly because of one player who expressly and intentionally misinterpreted the rules and could not fit the roleplay requirements for an exalted character (yes, this was a Vow of Poverty Monk). He abused it so badly that none of us can use either.

No 3rd party. There is some weird stuff out there and tracking down every single extra supplement by every person who had a "neat idea" and enough to self publish is a pain. Banning third party makes the line a lot clearer than saying "yes" or "no" to every possible option. Effectively this means that it has to have the official logo or be endorsed as official material (yes, this means we allow Dragon Magazine)

And then, the gentleman's agreement, which is sometimes enforced by in game effects. Such as the rest of the party getting special items or other toys and the problem player receiving nothing; the plot hook the players receive becomes a problem/detriment to the problem player; NPCs are brought in to irritate said player; or simply, the problem player gets no sideplot, no matter what he insists upon. Sometimes it's enforced by out of game effects, like having to sit on the sidelines while the rest of the players have their scenes narrated.

We don't like to have to enforce it, but sometimes you get a player who will simply argue rules for hours... including house rules. That's just disruptive. I've had to just come down heavy handed once because a player ended up nit picking a house rule that I had to implement (in his favor I might add) because he wanted yet more out of it. It took hours. So, no more arguing. You want it? You got it, but expect the BBEG to focus on *you* next combat, and possibly the one after, depending on how greedy, selfish and destructive you get.

I know some might not agree with this, but it allows good players to get rewarded and encourages good behaviour and table manners. there are some bumps, but they even out quickly and there are more ways than one to neuter an aggressive drama queen.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2012, 05:55:31 PM »
Tome of Battle-not for flavor or for caster supremacy, but because I don't want to add yet another mechanic to the game (maneuvers).

Do you not like mundane characters?  Or do you houserule/homebrew them heavily?
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2012, 06:23:00 PM »
No we like mundane characters.. I don't typically play them, but if we find someone's not performing up to the standard level of the party, there's usually some form of bonus that's given to the underpowered to boost them.. templates, items, etc...

Though our typical mundane players are fairly good at min/maxing out, so the mundanes they play are usually on par, since our casters have an unspoken agreement not to abuse the higher powered spells (wish,gate, etc) or mechanics (persist for one big mention).

We do have a few house rules we use, but they benefit both groups rather evenly, the only thing that perhaps pulls casters back a notch is the fact that we don't have magic marts for new spells.. they have to be found in game, or researched over months...the two per level can be anything on approved materials, but it's still only two(or four with collegiate). When you have caster players who don't/won't abuse the more powerful spells, it helps.

I suppose it's something that only works with our group specifically. I understand how ToB could be useful in a non house ruled game but our general agreement is that D&D without house rules is like a house without walls... nothing stands up.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2012, 06:31:50 PM »
...
I know some might not agree with this, but it allows good players to get rewarded and encourages good behaviour and table manners. there are some bumps, but they even out quickly and there are more ways than one to neuter an aggressive drama queen.
I don't agree with it b/c you are using in-game solutions -- BBEG focus, NPC annoyances, and so on -- to what is an out of game meta-problem.  I know this is tried and true D&D territory; numerous DMGs and game guides have suggested just these things.  But, I find that they create a punitive atmosphere and a kind of antagonism or arm's race that doesn't make anyone happy.

As a side note, I think that with sufficient optimization almost any character concept can work just fine.  There's a sliding scale at work there -- takes more work to make rangers awesome than it does for druids and all that.  I can appreciate that 3.5 D&D has enough mechanics and sub-systems to make anyone's head spin, frankly.  I come from the "you need to know how the stuff on your character sheet works" school of thought, so I don't mind introducing new sub-systems.  And, the game has been out long enough that my gaming buddies know it pretty well at this point.  But, I can see the argument.

Offline Dkonen

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2012, 07:07:29 PM »
For people who are more heavily invested in their characters...it could cause issues. Noone at our table is so invested that an in game reprimand of having their character get the *expletive* beaten out of them is a game breaker. It is enough to act as a mild rebuke, not unlike a pointed clearing of the throat followed by a cool stare.

We don't enact permanent penalties on characters, or use in game as anything other than a mild statement to the player that they may be misbehaving. We operate on the assumption that a lot of the time, it is entirely unintentional-which it often is. A character missing out on an item generates less hostility than an outright confrontation over something that's often merely a misunderstanding or a manifestation of a bad day over flowing into the game.

If it's bad enough, yes, it merits a non game confrontation, but we don't have much of that anymore (there were some trials), I have had to ban people from our table until they could behave, but generally I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and an in game heads up than disrupt the game and confront them personally.
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Offline Soft Insanity

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2012, 07:43:59 PM »
Tome of Battle-not for flavor or for caster supremacy, but because I don't want to add yet another mechanic to the game (maneuvers).

Banning this and psionics indicates a lazy dm.  I don't pretend to know very much about psionics, so I trust the player to tell me what he can do.  If it sounds too good, I'll look it up after the game.  I'll say you should always give Melees the benefit of the doubt...they need it.

Villain/Hero specific books that contradict the theme of the game, no villain source if it's a "goodly" campaign (ex: Champions of Ruin and the like) no hero source if it's an "evil" campaign.

Ban indicates it's not available to the dm either, so this is just silly.  You can, by all means restrict access to certain books for pcs based on alignment, but hand-cuffing yourself as the dm by banning the counter books is silly. (and an invitation to have your game ruined by a cleric)

BoVD/BoED, mostly because of one player who expressly and intentionally misinterpreted the rules and could not fit the roleplay requirements for an exalted character (yes, this was a Vow of Poverty Monk). He abused it so badly that none of us can use either.

I can't see how a vow monk, even misinterpreting the rules, could be anything but broken in the doesn't work way.  The reason vow of povery sucks isn't the roleplay requirement, it's that magic items are 100x better than what VoP offers.  It sounds like you weren't giving out enough treasure to your players, and they in turn weren't finding/buying/crafting even the simplest magic items.

No 3rd party. There is some weird stuff out there and tracking down every single extra supplement by every person who had a "neat idea" and enough to self publish is a pain. Banning third party makes the line a lot clearer than saying "yes" or "no" to every possible option. Effectively this means that it has to have the official logo or be endorsed as official material (yes, this means we allow Dragon Magazine)

Short of a few Aeg products and hacked to pieces, all the 3rd party I've read is more balanced than Core.  Dragon Magazine even beats out Aeg if you know where to look.

And then, the gentleman's agreement, which is sometimes enforced by in game effects. Such as the rest of the party getting special items or other toys and the problem player receiving nothing; the plot hook the players receive becomes a problem/detriment to the problem player; NPCs are brought in to irritate said player; or simply, the problem player gets no sideplot, no matter what he insists upon. Sometimes it's enforced by out of game effects, like having to sit on the sidelines while the rest of the players have their scenes narrated.

Metagame dick-wagging isn't very fun.  It indicates a horrible DM.  I've never felt the need to troll my players, but have had dms who did just that (those campaigns usually end quickly). 
Monty-Halling the players who aren't as invested in character strength isn't always the best idea.  At best, it comes off as favoritism, at worst it throws balance to the wind, and forces an arms racing scenario.

We don't like to have to enforce it, but sometimes you get a player who will simply argue rules for hours... including house rules. That's just disruptive. I've had to just come down heavy handed once because a player ended up nit picking a house rule that I had to implement (in his favor I might add) because he wanted yet more out of it. It took hours. So, no more arguing. You want it? You got it, but expect the BBEG to focus on *you* next combat, and possibly the one after, depending on how greedy, selfish and destructive you get.

Wow, I suspect you are a new DM.  I've had hours long arguments over house rules myself(in 2e, which favored the dm).  Usually it was because the dm was giving away too much to certain players while ignoring others.  He did what you did, which was to focus on my character in a meta-fashion (even going so far as to rape her).  Well, it soured everybody to him, because they knew I was correct.  Antipathy games like this don't last very long.

I know some might not agree with this, but it allows good players to get rewarded and encourages good behaviour and table manners. there are some bumps, but they even out quickly and there are more ways than one to neuter an aggressive drama queen.

In game rewards for playing like the dm wants you to is just strait up coddling your pcs.  Most of your post was about how you punish instead of how you reward.  "Aggressive drama queens" are just dm's in the wrong game role.  I suggest you go back to being a player and let your problem player dm things for a while.  I think you will be surprised.  I've done this myself plenty of times, and every time, the "problem player" was a decent dm.  The longest campaign I've ever been in had shared dm roles, and everybody eventually adopted what they liked each other doing.  It led to a nearly non-hostile environment where the math came forward.  Once this happens the new enemy of the game becomes linear wizards/quadratic fighters (edit: scratch that, reverse it...lol), so we just E6'd that to nill.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 07:47:37 PM by Soft Insanity »

Offline veekie

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2012, 10:56:45 PM »
Tome of Battle-not for flavor or for caster supremacy, but because I don't want to add yet another mechanic to the game (maneuvers).

No 3rd party. There is some weird stuff out there and tracking down every single extra supplement by every person who had a "neat idea" and enough to self publish is a pain. Banning third party makes the line a lot clearer than saying "yes" or "no" to every possible option. Effectively this means that it has to have the official logo or be endorsed as official material (yes, this means we allow Dragon Magazine)
These are pretty good reasons to ban things actually. You don't always have the time and attention(especially if your GM is employed) to incorporate and vet every bit of new rules that is desired in the game, presuming your group IS aware of the resultant issues.

Vetting a single item or feat is relatively simple, digesting a full magic system is not.
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Offline Ryu Hayabusa

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2012, 11:10:03 PM »
What do I ban?

The only source I ban is Tome of Battle.  Dkonen's  reason is the big one, though there a few others. I'd rather help a martial character optimize up than bring in ToB.

Beyond that, the cheese get banned. No leadership, no faerie mysteries initiate, no celerity. I encourage PCs to avoid stuff like spamming solid fog to end encounters, and outright ban instant death spells. If the PCs dip into cheese, my policy is that the bad guys do too. It might be nice to get up to shenanigans, but you aren't the only one in the game world that can do that. It helps keep everything reasonably sane.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2012, 11:20:32 PM »
I'd rather help a martial character optimize up than bring in ToB.

IMO the problem with this line of thinking is that it restricts mundane characters to a few very specific concepts to remain viable.

I rarely ban anything.  I personally love to have all my options open and allow my players the same courtesy, giving them op advice and trying to help them realize whatever character concept they want to play.  I will say that I have a sizable amount of houserules, particularly in terms of fixing low-powered classes to make them more viable.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2012, 11:28:15 PM »
If you ban ToB because you don't want to learn the system, do you also ban Magic of Incarnum, Psionics, Tome of Magic, or any of the other alternate systems?
Personally, if a player comes to me with an idea for a character that relies on a subsystem I'm not familiar with, I give them a couple minutes to explain it to me.  Then if I still don't understand it, I read it myself.  If I still don't understand it, I read the Handbook on it. 
I try very hard not to ban anything, and so far I haven't had to.  I'm a big proponent of the idea that "It's only a problem if it's a problem."  You don't need to ban things that aren't being abused, and you especially don't need to ban things that look abusive but are only being used to do non-abusive things.  That being said, every single Wizard I've played with has thought Fireball was an excellent 3rd level spell, so that gives you an idea of the optimization level of my group. 


... the cheese get banned. No leadership, no faerie mysteries initiate, no celerity. I encourage PCs to avoid stuff like spamming solid fog to end encounters, and outright ban instant death spells. If the PCs dip into cheese, my policy is that the bad guys do too. It might be nice to get up to shenanigans, but you aren't the only one in the game world that can do that. It helps keep everything reasonably sane.

Wait, you seriously consider "save or dies" and battlefield control to be a problem?  If you have a big bad guy you're fond of, make him immune to [death] effects though Death Ward or a magic item.  If they're only using SoDs on mooks, then it's not a problem.  If the PCs use Solid Fog to trap a guy and walk around him, they don't get the loot he's carrying.  Besides, Freedom of Movement is the same spell level. 
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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2012, 11:56:55 PM »
I rarely need to ban anything, part because my players play nice and part because of my global rule, "anything you pull off, the DM can pull off too".  That seems to keep them from performing Pun-Pun shinanigans or economy-breaking, lest they feel the consequences.
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Offline veekie

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2012, 12:25:22 AM »
Quote
If you ban ToB because you don't want to learn the system, do you also ban Magic of Incarnum, Psionics, Tome of Magic, or any of the other alternate systems?
Well, can't speak for others, but usually yes(though I know ToB well enough myself that it gets through just fine when I'm in charge).
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2012, 12:54:52 AM »
Tome of Battle-not for flavor or for caster supremacy, but because I don't want to add yet another mechanic to the game (maneuvers).

No 3rd party. There is some weird stuff out there and tracking down every single extra supplement by every person who had a "neat idea" and enough to self publish is a pain. Banning third party makes the line a lot clearer than saying "yes" or "no" to every possible option. Effectively this means that it has to have the official logo or be endorsed as official material (yes, this means we allow Dragon Magazine)
These are pretty good reasons to ban things actually. You don't always have the time and attention(especially if your GM is employed) to incorporate and vet every bit of new rules that is desired in the game, presuming your group IS aware of the resultant issues.

Vetting a single item or feat is relatively simple, digesting a full magic system is not.
And yet, no new published material has been added to the game in 4 years.  Isn't that enough time to learn the new mechanics, even with an employed GM?  I mean, if you're newer to the game, then sure.  But if you're a member of a char-op board, I feel like this is kind of dropping the ball.

Note that I'm not including 3rd-party stuff, I don't generally include those things.  I'm talking about things like MoI or ToB or ToM.
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Offline littha

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2012, 01:36:02 AM »
As a rule I don't ban anything unless it doesn't fit with the setting we are going to play and even then only if its too much of a stretch to refluff it to something acceptable.

I pretty much always allow Homebrew and 3rd party stuff. I can Veto anything stupid and I hope I can spot said stupid after the years I have spent hanging about CO forums...

Offline veekie

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2012, 01:50:05 AM »
Tome of Battle-not for flavor or for caster supremacy, but because I don't want to add yet another mechanic to the game (maneuvers).

No 3rd party. There is some weird stuff out there and tracking down every single extra supplement by every person who had a "neat idea" and enough to self publish is a pain. Banning third party makes the line a lot clearer than saying "yes" or "no" to every possible option. Effectively this means that it has to have the official logo or be endorsed as official material (yes, this means we allow Dragon Magazine)
These are pretty good reasons to ban things actually. You don't always have the time and attention(especially if your GM is employed) to incorporate and vet every bit of new rules that is desired in the game, presuming your group IS aware of the resultant issues.

Vetting a single item or feat is relatively simple, digesting a full magic system is not.
And yet, no new published material has been added to the game in 4 years.  Isn't that enough time to learn the new mechanics, even with an employed GM?  I mean, if you're newer to the game, then sure.  But if you're a member of a char-op board, I feel like this is kind of dropping the ball.

Note that I'm not including 3rd-party stuff, I don't generally include those things.  I'm talking about things like MoI or ToB or ToM.
It can happen. I've never played in a group which used Incarnum or any ToM material up until recently(and then it was just an NPC Binder with only one bound vestige), and thus cannot claim even the barest familiarity with them(whether base mechanics or specific abilities) and thus cannot run them.
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Offline rot42

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2012, 03:06:59 AM »
I like to make it clear what kind of game I am interested in running and then operate mostly on the "play nice together / no jerks" principle. Any unfamiliar source (Dragon material and complicated classes that I have not read in a while) is hard banned until you can give me a hardcopy and a week to peruse it. Synchronicity or WRT cheese is right out, as is advancing a fast-advancing class with another PrC (RAW it works, sure, but you are getting the main feature of the one class along with all the features of some other class), and I view Shivering Touch with a leery eye, but I go back and forth on Celerity and Arcane Fusion; basically, any ability that I will need to specifically plan around for every encounter might be soft banned - I explain my reasoning and listen to counterarguments, but sometimes the best counterargument is material demonstration in another DM's game. I also unapologetically reserve the right to ban anything and everything that starts messing up the game; so far, "no jerks" has been enough, though.

I dislike the "you avoid it and I will too" MAD bargain. If I were interested in running the sort of campaign that included whatever trick or technique, then I would be - any player violating their half of such a deal makes the campaign less fun to run.

Offline Pencil

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2012, 05:01:42 AM »
Well not to front somebody but...

ToB got easy rules.They are not hard to understand.Same goes for Psionics or ToM stuff.MoI is also not to hard to understand either but harder than the rest though.Well what i am trying to say is:When a player really desperately wants to play something "innovative" who is the DM to stand against him?All those rules need about 30min each to learn and you dont need to understand every little detail about the spells or maneuvers.Knowing the system is good enough.That is no time compared to the usual stuff a DM has to prepare.

I usually don´t need to ban anything because my players are pretty inexperienced with 3.5.The only thing I do not like is Homebrew that seems incomplete.
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