Author Topic: What do you usually ban in your games?  (Read 54672 times)

Offline Tshern

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2012, 06:12:49 AM »
Tome of Battle-not for flavor or for caster supremacy, but because I don't want to add yet another mechanic to the game (maneuvers).

No 3rd party. There is some weird stuff out there and tracking down every single extra supplement by every person who had a "neat idea" and enough to self publish is a pain. Banning third party makes the line a lot clearer than saying "yes" or "no" to every possible option. Effectively this means that it has to have the official logo or be endorsed as official material (yes, this means we allow Dragon Magazine)
These are pretty good reasons to ban things actually. You don't always have the time and attention(especially if your GM is employed) to incorporate and vet every bit of new rules that is desired in the game, presuming your group IS aware of the resultant issues.

Vetting a single item or feat is relatively simple, digesting a full magic system is not.
And yet, no new published material has been added to the game in 4 years.  Isn't that enough time to learn the new mechanics, even with an employed GM?  I mean, if you're newer to the game, then sure.  But if you're a member of a char-op board, I feel like this is kind of dropping the ball.

Note that I'm not including 3rd-party stuff, I don't generally include those things.  I'm talking about things like MoI or ToB or ToM.
I kept a categorical ban of MoI and ToM in the Iron Siege for several years. First I had no access to the books and after that I simply felt it was too much trouble to become proficient enough to run a game for up level 100 characters using a system I have only started to master.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2012, 09:27:33 AM »
Tome of Battle-not for flavor or for caster supremacy, but because I don't want to add yet another mechanic to the game (maneuvers).

No 3rd party. There is some weird stuff out there and tracking down every single extra supplement by every person who had a "neat idea" and enough to self publish is a pain. Banning third party makes the line a lot clearer than saying "yes" or "no" to every possible option. Effectively this means that it has to have the official logo or be endorsed as official material (yes, this means we allow Dragon Magazine)
These are pretty good reasons to ban things actually. You don't always have the time and attention(especially if your GM is employed) to incorporate and vet every bit of new rules that is desired in the game, presuming your group IS aware of the resultant issues.

Vetting a single item or feat is relatively simple, digesting a full magic system is not.
And yet, no new published material has been added to the game in 4 years.  Isn't that enough time to learn the new mechanics, even with an employed GM?  I mean, if you're newer to the game, then sure.  But if you're a member of a char-op board, I feel like this is kind of dropping the ball.

Note that I'm not including 3rd-party stuff, I don't generally include those things.  I'm talking about things like MoI or ToB or ToM.
I kept a categorical ban of MoI and ToM in the Iron Siege for several years. First I had no access to the books and after that I simply felt it was too much trouble to become proficient enough to run a game for up level 100 characters using a system I have only started to master.

You get special dispensation for Iron Siege since... y'know... level 100 characters.  Besides, most of those alternate systems got very little epic support, and are inferior to spellcasting anyway.
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2012, 11:23:05 AM »
Actually not much of anyone here is interested in Incarnum so it's a non issue.

I'm working on getting into post grad in a highly competitive field. My husband (our other GM) works as a research assistant and is working on his accounting papers. We have two roommates, both of which requires very intense handling, a cancer "survivor" parent who is coping with thrice weekly dialysis and extreme (highly medicated) schizophrenia with bipolar. One of the other parents has been in ICU for heart problems and has late onset parkinson's. His wife is a manipulative woman who tries to have us do everything for her and be constantly at her beck and call and when we're not, she abuses her husband. We're barely making ends meet and just finding enough time to run regular games.

Now tell me I should know every single supplement and mechanic.

I have real life issues to juggle that are a bit more important than adding yet more stress to my life in the one break I get from all the crap that's going on outside of gaming-usually when the one fellow we can't kick out of our games decides to min max it out with rules interpretations that bare no resemblance to the original because we're not familiar enough with it (means inside out and backwards).

VoP was broken because he explained it as giving him everything that his other exalted feats but more. As in extra feats, skill points, attribute boosts and immunities. And the standard. He used it as an excuse to layer on whatever he wanted onto the character because we were in the middle of dealing with the cancer survivor's renal failure and trying to find a place for her in a nursing home. (she's actually living on her own now, and you'd never know.. we're very happy)

So.. I *sincerely* apologize if I'm a "bad" DM because I haven't had the time to review the books my players would like to play with. I have been DMing for years...but my life hasn't exactly been a typical white picket fence and I have to take time out to deal with it. I'm sorry but my life doesn't afford the time to do that.

Edit:

I won't get rid of the previous, because I think it makes a point that those of us who love gaming don't always have the time due to real life considerations, and assumptions are bad. However, I do apologize for getting upset. I love gaming (probably beyond reason), and the statement that I'm bad because I can't spend as much time on what I love makes me steam. Honestly, most of the rules I know is because of reading the forums here and on the old forum site, as well as the old CharOp boards when I was able to.

So.. edit to apologize for getting upset, admit I enjoy gaming probably more than is healthy, assumptions are bad, life can suck, and admitting that my best grasp of rules came not from books but from here, the old BG site and the old WotC boards. There's no way to understand the rules like watching a bunch of optimizers get their hands on them and run.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 12:10:57 PM by Dkonen »
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2012, 12:08:14 PM »
I didn't mean to offend, my comment was more aimed toward veekie than you.  Of course I can't know your home situation or your ability to commit time to learning new subsystems.

I think it's just more a matter of different gaming/DMing styles:
a) "Here's the ruleset that exists in this world.  Make a character using this stuff." vs
b) "What character do you want to play?  What rules are necessary to describe that character mechanically?"
I do the latter, which necessitates learning tons of different subsystems, and often making up my own to suit a PC's needs.  I understand the former position, though every time I hear it when it comes time to make characters, it makes me a little disappointed.  Lol.

In terms of charop, which this board is dedicated to (this thread is literally posted in Min/Max), the only real way to get better at optimizing is to increase your system mastery.  And if you don't learn printed subsystems, you're leaving gaping holes in your system mastery, which means you literally can't be as good at optimizing as if you'd learned the subsystems.

Now, I have no idea whether you're on these boards to get advice or to give it (or both).  If the former, then there's no issue.  If the latter, then there will be scenarios where not knowing subsystems would lead you to give suboptimal advice.  Since generally the subsystems (other than Tome of Battle) see a lot less play than more mainstream mechanics, you'll probably be fine for the most part, but the difference is there.

veekie, however (no offense V), is a mod, and is pretty firmly on the "giving advice" end.  I know he mostly posts in homebrew, but still.
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2012, 12:19:41 PM »
Mostly to get.. though I have given  (twice I think?) when I expected someone else to post and noone did.

I know my grasp isn't as good as it *could* be, it's just the "...you're a bad DM.." comments that make me steam.

I like to think my players enjoy the games we have immensely, and don't really feel the lack for not being allowed certain rules mechanics. Sure, they grouse about it, but it's more in humour than anything. (comments like "Awwww.. but why can't a I play a gestalt half fiend/half celestial feral wood element wizard/ incantatrix/SCM//druid/planar shepherd of dream?" No.. noone has even joked about being able to play PunPun.)

We ban things because one of our players can't be trusted and my husband and I just don't have the time to read *all* the books and *all* the errata and *all* the dragon magazines, not to mention websites and disputing which CustServ ruling is the right one. We're still stuck on the Empower Spell definitions argument. (Incidentally, was that ever resolved?)

Edit: and it wasn't your post that made me go a little off the deep end.. it was Soft Insanity's.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 12:23:40 PM by Dkonen »
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2012, 12:23:45 PM »
I never said you were a bad DM, just that your style was different from mine, and that from a charop standpoint it would be better to learn the subsystems.  :)

It seems your problem player is definitely a munchkin.  They're a problem no matter who is running the game, and I expect your banlist would be quite different without them.

I'm not sure what they tried to convince you about VoP, though.  What you said made no sense... I mean, VoP should be altered to stay viable, but skill points?  What?
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2012, 12:29:44 PM »
They were folding in prior exalted feats to the next exalted feat they got and acting as if they were all cumulative with eachother.

Ex: VoP= Nymph's Kiss+Vow of Poverty, as well as having the benefit seperately from NK. So 2x the benefits, and with each feat they added the previous feats as a cumulative effect on the next feat, so that 1 was 1 and 2 equaled feat 1+2, and 3 equaled feats 1+2+3 so they had effectively 3x the benefit from feat 1, twice from feat 2 and then feat 3 on top of that.

I'd like to say it was an isolated incident, but we're a close group and we recently caught our monk player doing it with stacking Flurry attack bonus and Base attack bonus for his flurry totals (yes he was adding them *together*). We're acting like it was a mistake, but it most likely wasn't.

Most effective monk I've seen other than the Exalted monstrosity of abuse listed above  :lmao
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2012, 12:43:05 PM »
They were folding in prior exalted feats to the next exalted feat they got and acting as if they were all cumulative with eachother.

Ex: VoP= Nymph's Kiss+Vow of Poverty, as well as having the benefit seperately from NK. So 2x the benefits, and with each feat they added the previous feats as a cumulative effect on the next feat, so that 1 was 1 and 2 equaled feat 1+2, and 3 equaled feats 1+2+3 so they had effectively 3x the benefit from feat 1, twice from feat 2 and then feat 3 on top of that.

I'd like to say it was an isolated incident, but we're a close group and we recently caught our monk player doing it with stacking Flurry attack bonus and Base attack bonus for his flurry totals (yes he was adding them *together*). We're acting like it was a mistake, but it most likely wasn't.

Most effective monk I've seen other than the Exalted monstrosity of abuse listed above  :lmao

Lol!  Actually, that might make for an actually okay monk.  Wizard still wins, but sure.  Lol.
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Offline Pencil

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2012, 12:47:06 PM »
Tip for free:Ban the Munchkin, not the books  :P

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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2012, 12:53:40 PM »
Tip for free:Ban the Munchkin, not the books  :P
:lol
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2012, 12:59:09 PM »
He lives with us. And pays rent.

Better munchkin than pissed off destructive roommate.
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Offline veekie

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2012, 01:16:10 PM »
In terms of charop, which this board is dedicated to (this thread is literally posted in Min/Max), the only real way to get better at optimizing is to increase your system mastery.  And if you don't learn printed subsystems, you're leaving gaping holes in your system mastery, which means you literally can't be as good at optimizing as if you'd learned the subsystems.
Indeed, and I read/digest fast enough that its generally not an issue if I do need to acquire mastery in that subsystem. Except I mainly make use of practical optimization, and sad to say, MoI, ToM, niche stuff(Dragonfire Adept, Marshal) or even setting specific stuff(Eberron, FR) simply don't show up on my play field. Nobody uses them, nor wants to for the most part, so they became irrelevant.

Heck, consider the groups in the recent years:
4E - 2 PbPs that never got off the ground.
3.5 - Mainly short lived PbP, low level, limited book/class selection, none of which concluded. One ongoing IRC game at low level with heavy houserules.
PF - 1 IRC game, as GM. Sources are pretty wide, as long as everything passes through me first, but probably no obscure stuff either.
M&M - 2 PbPs, got a good distance but dead now.
nWoD - 3 IRC games, taken to conclusion.
Exalted - 3 IRC games, taken to conclusion for 2 of them(one died with a meh)
DFRPG - 1 IRC game as co-GM, concluded major plot arc.

And couple that with increasing workload...welp.
It's mainly a point made for all the busy people out there. People ban sources simply because they cannot afford the attention to investigate these sources, and also because of bad players who would take precedence on approving a source to bring another, and another, and another, dramatically increasing workload.

Finally, in a mixed group(that is, not recruited from a CO board like us), you can probably trust a quarter of them to both understand the mechanics of the new subsystems and use them responsibly. Half of them would be able to understand the mechanics, but would not necessarily play nice. Another half would play nice, but don't quite get it, so you have to handle the mental workload of keeping track of whether a subsystem works.

The GM must know the mechanics better than anyone else, barring a responsible, rules proficient player acting as GM-co-processor. If he can't handle the mechanics, he shouldn't allow them.
Take a simple, extreme case, that of somebody who doesn't really understand the limitations of spellcasting. He proceeds to deafen a party of spellcasters for ambiance in a dungeon, and the party gets trashed by vastly under CR mobs because they can't fight properly.
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Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2012, 04:21:58 PM »
The GM must know the mechanics better than anyone else, barring a responsible, rules proficient player acting as GM-co-processor. If he can't handle the mechanics, he shouldn't allow them.
That's been my biggest gripe as a player: DM's who don't know the rules.  I'm cool with house rules that are laid out from the beginning, and were made for intelligent reasons (setting or "flavor" reasons, or the DM didn't like the core mechanic).  But the DM needs to understand what the core mechanics are before he can intelligently start making changes to the rules.

I once joined a group (for a single game session) that played the rules this way:
Fighter A and Cleric B flank bad guy Z.  Rogue C is standing 20 feet away and throws his dagger at bad guy Z.  Sneak attack applies because the bad guy is flanked.

I was polite yet pointed in my resignation email explaining that the DM didn't even understand the basic combat rules within Core (even gave support for the correct interpretation by pointing out that the way they had been playing it was equivalent to the 9th level ability of a specialized PrC [whisper knife]), and how that was unacceptable.  There were other issues with the group (I was there for 7 hours; we got about 2 hours of actual gaming done), which added to my desire not to return.

Now, the on topic part of my post.

I ban things for two different reasons.  Well, really three reasons.
1) It's unbalanced.
2) It doesn't fit the setting (I run a homebrew world).
3) I think it's stupid.

In the first category I place Divine Metamagic and thought bottles.  There might be other things that fall in there, but those are the main ones.  I had never really wanted to allow Mindsight, knowing what a headache it has caused other DM's, but I now have a Beguiler/Mindbender PC (gestalted with Barbarian) who wanted to take it at 12th level (party just reached 10th).  We discussed it back and forth over a few sessions, and we came to the gentlemen's agreement to have him take Mindsight at 15th level, and something else (likely arcane strike) at 12th.  By 15th level the PC's will have 8th level spells (even the Beguiler, due to house rules giving him one slot per day and one spell known), and Mindsight constantly active isn't that big a deal by then, compared to everything else they'll be able to do.  I also run very few cramped dungeon-type location adventures, so that will further lessen the problem aspects that it tends to have in other people's campaigns.

I also avoid a lot of problems by using the 3.0 version of some classes (Incantatrix and Hathran come directly to mind).  Despite the perception of 3.0 material being more "broken" than 3.5, I've often found the reverse to be true.  Yes, they nerfed a lot of the core spells for 3.5, but when you get to the splat books, sorry, 3.5 incantatrix is WAY more powerful than the 3.0 one.  A lot of this also stems from my dislike of many of the changes from 3.0 to 3.5.  I still use 3.5 as my chassis, but houserule a lot of stuff back to 3.0 versions.

The second category just has to do with the flavor of the world.  Mine is a Viking Gestalt setting.  Psionics just doesn't fit the flavor.  Neither does monk or ninja or shugenja.  I thought long and hard about Tome of Battle when it came out, and I was learning its mechanics.  I like ToB, and it pained me a bit to do it, but I don't allow it into this setting, because it just doesn't fit.  That said, if I were running "generic D&D," I'd have no problem using any of the subsystems.  They just don't fit the flavor and mood of the world I'm trying to create for this campaign.  But at the same time, I don't feel bad for denying them access to Tome of Battle, because they are Gestalt.

The last category is a very short list, and includes things like the Oozemaster PrC (Masters of the Wild) and the Slime Lord PrC (PGtF, IIRC).  They're just stupid, IMO, and I try to run fairly intelligent, serious games.

All that said, I also have several house rules that favor melee characters (as well as some others). 
Keen and Improved Critical stack. 
You can Power Attack (1:1 ratio) with light weapons. 
I use only slightly altered versions of 3.0 Polymorph Other and Polymorph Self.
Wildshape has no time-limit, and is based upon the version of Wildshape from Masters of the Wild (adding in 3.5 things like Plant wildshape at 12th level). 
3.0 Haste as a 5th level spell.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 11:18:10 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2012, 07:52:33 PM »
@Dkonen
We all have lives.  I'm not going to trot out the difficulties that are involved in my own life or the challenges that it presents and the demands on my time.  I'm a relatively private person and I am mature enough to assume that everyone has their shit.  And, to put a fine point on it, your post is vaguely insulting since it (strongly) implies that no, my life is sunshine and flowers and I have nothing better to do but pore over D&D supplements and that me and my gaming buddies are not real people with real lives and real problems and real challenges. 

But, and this echoes things that Pencil posted above, there's a big difference between saying "I don't have the time to learn that subsystem/rule/whatever" and banning it.  Personally, if I couldn't trust someone at the table to (a) know the system and run it fairly or come to me with any questions about things that are debatable, and/or (b) give me the thumbnail sketch of how it works over coffee, a beer, or via a quick (preferably bullet pointed) email.  Then, I don't now if I'd play D&D with them. 

Now, that does put the burden on the player suggesting the new resource.  But, that seems fair.  And, its a distributed burden.  I think what Ksbsnowowl and Veekie are worried about is a DM being inundated with sources to go through.  If 4 players want 4 separate subsystems, then that's 1 subsystem for each of them, but 4 for the DM. 

I actually don't think the DM needs to know the ins and outs of the rulesets or even the builds, etc. of the characters.  He needs to know what they can do, more or less, and that's about it, and trust the rest.  There was a very old-school sensibility that the DM needs to know the rules the best, but with decent game systems -- ones with a sound internal logic -- I've found that not to be the case.  Actually there's something very liberating about D&D in this regard:  despite its flaws the levels and CR systems give you a rough idea of what you're dealing with.  This is in contrast to games like Rifts or White Wolf where god only knows what a PC, even a baseline or starting out one, can do. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 07:55:12 PM by Unbeliever »

Offline ariasderros

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2012, 09:07:30 PM »
As far as what I ban, as was said on page one, being an inconsiderate person / player.

Witch brings me to this:

The GM must know the mechanics better than anyone else, barring a responsible, rules proficient player acting as GM-co-processor. If he can't handle the mechanics, he shouldn't allow them.
That's been my biggest gripe as a player: DM's who don't know the rules.  I'm cool with house rules that are laid out from the beginning, and were made for intelligent reasons (setting or "flavor" reasons, or the DM didn't like the core mechanic).  But the DM needs to understand what the core mechanics are before he can intelligently start making changes to the rules.

This is, IMO, a misconception.
I've been the "co-processor" before.
But here's the thing, part of the concept of The Gentleman's Agreement is that everyone is there to have fun. Together. As a Group.
Putting the entire burden on ONE PERSON for every rule, every source, every combo, etc. is BS. First of all, no one can know all of it through and through, much less remember it all even if they had known it at one point. Second of all, people can be wrong. The rules-lawyer-ing should be something of a group effort. With the caveat arbiters that: it should not disrupt game-play over-much; and that there is a fine line between "correct" and "ass".

The DM is, quite simply, the player who came up with an idea for a decent story, and agreed to play all of the NPC's.
No more. No less. No else.

Share the burden people.

If no-one has played a *Psion* in your group before, and you want to play one:
A) RTFM
B) Tell your group what you're thinking, and make sure they're okay with what you want to do and why you want to do it for a character.
C) Explain the material to at least some of them, encourage them to read into some of it, help them through understanding what you think the rules are, and be open to the fact that the others might interpret them differently.
D) Make sure they're still okay with the idea.
E) Re-RTFM
F) While playing *Psion*, make sure you have the material handy, and every time you do something, re-RTFM, until you, and the rest of your group are sure you do, in fact, understand what you're doing.

* can be whatever else too, Martial Adept, Truenamer, et cetera.

Seriously people, 99% of all brokenness brought into games is caused by mis-reading the RAW. Don't get me wrong, there is plenty broke in RAW, but what gets brought into games is people thinking that a Shadow Sentinel's ability to "increase threat range" means that they grow their sword and increase reach, or that Psions can augment to 5d6 at level 1, or that VoP has a multiplier effect with all of the other Exalted feats, or that you can be a Disciple of Dispater with a crit range of 6-20 and cut off peoples heads left and right with Vorpal (which only procs on a 20).

@ Dkonen
I do think that it could be more fun for your group if you didn't just flat-ban things, because there are some very falavorful and fun things out there. That is my opinion, take that for it being as meaningless as two cents are these days, much like all unsolicited advice.
But put the burden on them, and have them double check each other if you can't.
But if they're having fun then the Gentleman's Agreement has been met anyway  :).
The only reason I direct this at you is because it sounds like one person is cutting into the fun at times, when people catch him cheating. So make sure that his ideas are double-checked at the top of the point, when it is first brought up. Doesn't have to be checked by you, per-se, just that someone should check him for any "oversights".
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2012, 12:33:33 AM »
Why is it when it comes down to a ban discussion it's always ToB and Psionics?

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2012, 12:45:21 AM »
Why is it when it comes down to a ban discussion it's always ToB and Psionics?
They are the two most popular side-systems?

Offline Wrex

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2012, 12:50:53 AM »
Why is it when it comes down to a ban discussion it's always ToB and Psionics?
They are the two most popular side-systems?

Not only that, they trigger the most grognard revulsion. ToB violates the Noncasters= Mundane rule, while psionics is best known for breaking the hell out of 2nd edition. It's a shame too, since they are some of the better supplements.

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2012, 12:57:04 AM »
Not only that, they trigger the most grognard revulsion. ToB violates the Noncasters= Mundane rule, while psionics is best known for breaking the hell out of 2nd edition. It's a shame too, since they are some of the better supplements.

Not just that, but some early edition purists associate World of Warcraft and Japanese Anime/Manga and the younger generation's tastes as the primary reason for the huge power increase and major changes in 3rd/4th Edition.  They point to ToB's inspiration as evidence of this.

Not saying that all purists act this way, just a common phrase I see on grognards.txt

It's really insulting when they imply that all 3-4e fans are middle and high school "kiddies" when WotC took the reins 12 years ago.  A lot of us are now in our 20s-30s, thank you very much.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: What do you usually ban in your games?
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2012, 02:20:43 AM »
It's really insulting when they imply that all 3-4e fans are middle and high school "kiddies" when WotC took the reins 12 years ago.  A lot of us are now in our 20s-30s, thank you very much.
Grognards will be grognards.  One day I will bitch as much about 15th edition D&D and its players, while still playing my 3.0/3.5 hybrid.