Author Topic: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?  (Read 28923 times)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2012, 07:21:37 PM »
Diplomancer works for a while.  Then they hate him,
except for the well worded original Fanatic-ism.
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Offline snow_white

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2012, 07:42:32 PM »
Warlock? OP options: mortalbane, improved initiative, spiderwalk. stay at the wall
Archers from beyond 30' could pose a problem though :d

Offline snakeman830

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2012, 09:18:40 PM »
Warlock? OP options: mortalbane, improved initiative, spiderwalk. stay at the wall
Archers from beyond 30' could pose a problem though :d
60 feet is the range of Eldritch Blast :p
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Offline littha

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2012, 09:24:51 PM »
Warlock? OP options: mortalbane, improved initiative, spiderwalk. stay at the wall
Archers from beyond 30' could pose a problem though :d
60 feet is the range of Eldritch Blast :p

Problem being that any ranged character has a decent chance at killing anything too squishy in one hit...

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2012, 01:54:31 AM »
Assuming that everyone starts out far enough apart that no one kills someone just by winning initiative, and that there's at least some place where you can use concealment, I'm going to say a Druid will win this.

Druid 1
Feats: Greenbound Summoning, Shape Soulmeld: Bloodtalons, Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws, Nightbringer Initiate.
Flaws: Murky-Eyed, Noncombatant.

Nightbringer Initiate puts Hide and Move Silently on our class list, so we drop max ranks into both of them.  Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws gives us a +4 to Hide and Move Silently.  Assuming we start with max starting cash for our class, we buy 3 scrolls: one scroll of Camouflage, two of Summon Nature's Ally I.  We also get a quarterstaff, a sling, and a pretty damn large quantity of sling bullets.  Our animal companion is a riding dog.  Memorized spells are Lesser Vigor, twice.

When the battle begins, our druid casts Camouflage with her companion next to her to share spells with.  They get to concealment, hide, and wait.  It's extremely unlikely anyone can detect the druid at level 1, since our druid has a Hide modifier of at least 4 (Ranks) + 4 (Kruthik Claws) + 10 (Camouflage) = 18.  More likely to be at least 19 or 20, since dex of 12 or 14 is not unreasonable.  The dog is more noticeable, but less critical (if necessary, the dog can fight and hopefully kill anyone who comes after it).  Now, we wait as long as we possibly can for everyone else to fight and kill each other.

Ideally, we wait until the full 10 minute duration of Camouflage is up - just to run down anyone else's buffs should anyone else have cast buffs.  Not that it matters much.  When there's a very tiny number of opponents left (ideally 2 or less, but at the very least, less than 4), our druid casts Summon Nature's Ally I from a scroll.  What she summons is irrelevant - it's a greenbound creature, it's going to attack her enemies to the best of its ability.  The best of its ability consists of dropping a wall of thorns directly on the enemy's square.  There's no saving throw against this: the creature automatically takes damage as though it tried to move through the wall of thorns.  That's 25, minus the creature's AC, not counting dex or dodge bonus.  It is unlikely anyone will have more than +6 AC, so that's at least 9 damage with no save.  At which point they're stuck in the wall of thorns for no less than 10 minutes.  Druid casts SNA1 again for each remaining opponent, leaving them stuck inside the wall of thorns.

Any opponents not killed directly by the castings of wall of thorns, the druid should now be at leisure to plink at with her sling.  If someone else was trying the 'hide until everyone else is dead' strategy, her animal companion's Scent should detect them before they can sneak attack her.  If someone actually does manage to hit her, she may be in the negatives, but thanks to Shape Soulmeld: Bloodtalons, she can continue operating in the negatives, so she can use one of her memorized castings of lesser vigor to recover.

While her victory is not assured, it certainly seems really, really likely.
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Offline littha

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2012, 02:15:26 AM »
What is your solution to the Sanctuary cleric?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 02:17:34 AM by littha »

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2012, 02:19:46 AM »
Wall of Thorns, still.  Sanctuary protects against direct attacks, but not areas of effect.  Dropping a wall of thorns isn't a direct attack, so the summoned greenbound creature doesn't even need to make the saving throw in order to do it.
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Offline littha

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2012, 02:34:17 AM »
So you do 5 or so damage and then he stands there and waits for it to wear off?

Level 1 Human Cleric
Feats: Mercentile Background, Divine Metamagic, Persist Spell, Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt.
Flaws: Shakey, Poor Reflexes
Domains: Planning, Undeath
Spells Prepared:
0: Whatever
1: Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, whatever else. 

500 gp starting gold, crafting your own items makes 1500 gp worth of mundane equipment.
Half Plate and a Heavy shield come to 607 gp

Cleric has 21 AC against the thorns and can boost that to 23 with buffs. Thorns do 4 damage or 2 damage.

Additional bonus is that most melee characters cant hit AC 23 reliably at level 1.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 03:06:23 AM by littha »

Offline Mnemnosyne

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2012, 03:20:33 AM »
If the cleric has 18 AC from armor, he's still going to take 7 damage from the wall of thorns.  If he's already buffed with Shield of Faith and managed to DMM persist both that and Sanctuary, then he has 20 AC and only takes 5 damage...but he's also used up both of his 1st level spells, which means all he has is melee, 0-level spells, and a single domain spell.  The druid has a good will save, and thus has a decent chance of being able to attack the cleric with her sling, too.  If she succeeds on the will save, the druid can plink at the cleric with roughly 100 sling attacks while wall of thorns wears off - if we assume the cleric has 18 Wis, that's a DC 15 will save.  The druid certainly has at least 16 wisdom, and a good will save.  In addition, since you only get one chance to save vs. sanctuary, the druid will cast Resistance and share that with her animal companion.  Druid now has a 55% chance to save, while her riding dog has a 30% chance to save.  If the druid had 18 Wisdom, she'd have a 60% chance to save.

Could the cleric win at that point?  Perhaps, but the druid certainly has a major advantage.  She has more than a 50% chance to be able to attack the cleric directly with her sling while the cleric is waiting out the wall of thorns.  It's probably reasonable to assume the druid's animal companion wasn't spotted earlier what with the +10 hide bonus from camouflage, so the druid has her companion while the cleric is alone, and the companion has a 30% chance of being able to attack.  If the druid was able to wait until just the cleric remained alive, then she's got 4 uses of summon nature's ally to use.  If she wasn't able to wait that long, she probably had to use one to finish off the other remaining combatant, and one on the cleric.  That means she can cast it two more times.  Generally speaking, the cleric is probably going to take at least 10, if not 15 or 20 damage from the repeated walls of thorns, and his healing is going to be limited because he had to use his spells to get his sanctuary up and his AC to 20. 

For the cleric, the best-case scenario is that the druid fails her save against the sanctuary AND her companion has already been killed.  But the cleric comes out of the wall of thorns anywhere from moderately to severely wounded.  As soon as she attacks the druid, sanctuary goes away and the druid can fight back.  At that point the cleric is fighting a full-health druid that can keep fighting with no penalty all the way down to -9 HP.  The cleric is also wearing medium armor, slowing her movement speed to 20 ft, while the druid didn't have money to spend on armor, so she's got her full 30 ft. movement speed.  Perhaps the cleric also has a sling (I doubt he could afford a crossbow if he has all that armor and presumably a melee weapon).  The cleric's AC is much higher, giving the cleric a noticeable advantage on that end, but the druid probably only needs to get one to two hits in order to drop the cleric unconscious due to previous damage from the wall of thorns.  It's mostly down to luck.  If the druid's companion is still alive when it's down to her and the cleric,  and the druid is out of spells, the druid almost certainly wins, because once the cleric attacks and thus allows Sanctuary to drop, both the druid and her companion can attack.

So like I said, victory may not be assured, but it certainly seems really, really likely.

Edit: Didn't see the detailed stats before I posted, but I'd still say things are similar.  The cleric's probably going to eat at least two wall of thorns spells, so at least 6 damage (assuming he put up shield of faith for one of them).  And the druid still has at least a 55% chance to successfully attack the cleric.  Alternately, if the druid fails her saving throw, after the first wall of thorns she might wait until the cleric attacks her, thus breaking sanctuary.  She then flees from the cleric so she can cast another SNA1, traps the cleric once more, and this time has the freedom to plink away for 10 minutes with her sling.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 03:30:46 AM by Mnemnosyne »
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Offline betrayor

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2012, 03:26:55 AM »
Like someone said have a high knowledge check and then use Pazuzu to wish all your enemies to the Positive plane...
It shouldn't take more than 1 try and even if some of them save via natural 20, try again odd will be for you......
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2012, 03:37:55 AM »
I favor Druid as well. Primarily due to the Animal Companion.

I mean, at level 1 Feats are better than most classes. You could be a 4 Int Wizard with Battle Jump and out 'DPS' any Barbarian build lacking Feats. So who has the strongest Class Feature at level 1?

Dragonfire Adapt: Has a 15ft breath attack front loaded with three feats for his 'uber' damage trick with a long delay.
Crusader: Potentially unlimited healing and good tanking, but heal rate (2 per hit) vs 2 hits or less for death is poor odds.
Wizard: Has spells, but that's limited. Has a Familiar but that's weaker than an Animal Companion.
Cleric: Same problem as the Wizard, but trades the second set of hands to *maybe* persist a single 1st level spell.
Warlock: Archery is better.
Ranger: Favored Enemy(humans) applies to it's free Tracking feat for a nice hunter build, but other than stalking it's just a rogue.

And so on. Druid on the other hand gets a pretty decent pet. Like the wolf can murder mid to low op characters all by it's self with no adjustments through the Mule is probably a better bet (can ride it, more HD/attacks). Another thing to consider is only the Ranger and Druid can attempt to friend animals. This is like any character taking Diplomacy, except only these two classes (barring some AFCs) can to do to this select group. Likewise it does in fact have access to Healing. It's not infinite, but starting with full HP might buy another round to live opposed to running around with one HP left.

When you get into the build detail, a Druid can trade away his unobtained Wild Shape for lots of stuff. The Monk's Wisdom to AC which isn't a huge bonus right now (+4) but it's something for nothing. Favored Enemy(human) & Tracking gives it all the highlights of being a Ranger without sucking as badly as well.

The arena. If it's big and long lasting, whom ever picked up Survival will outlast those who didn't (barring cannibalism and murder streaks). If it's short and sweet, hello Greenbound. Take whatever Flaws/Traits/AFCs/Feats you can find and pump that Summon CL. Anything summoned will kill someone else, Greenbound simply that good.

So a lot of stuff going on for them. And I cannot stress that animal enough. Even a Mule is pretty tough even through it sounds pretty lol. 22 HP(!), two natural weapons at a +4 bonus (typical fighter has +5 with one attack), and you can train it with your free trick to run around the battle field for you giving you mobility while you summon the I Win button. And if it comes down to who lasts longer. Druid can self heal, feed him self, hide, track, and certainly importantly, it the only one that can't be tracked (pass without trace).

Offline littha

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2012, 03:51:27 AM »
The major problem with the druid strategy is that you need to deal with all the other classes while the cleric is likley not worth attacking by anyone else. Especially if he is stood in a whole load of thorns for 10 minutes.

The dog will be spotted by at least a few of the classes out there, +12 hide mod does not mean that you will never be spotted.

Also the wall will give the cleric cover so I don't see you doing much damage with your sling. Its either +4 AC for a nigh unhittable 27 AC (and 20% miss chance from concealment) or its total cover and you cant attack at all.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 04:06:54 AM by littha »

Offline betrayor

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2012, 04:05:27 AM »
What about a precocious apprentice wizard or sorcerer with Invisibility?
He just waits until everyone else is decimated and then finish the remaining weakened ones.....

Offline veekie

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2012, 05:13:12 AM »
The major problem with the druid strategy is that you need to deal with all the other classes while the cleric is likley not worth attacking by anyone else. Especially if he is stood in a whole load of thorns for 10 minutes.
The druid wouldn't be easily visible(and you can use the companion to maintain distance if spotted), but with the cleric, sheer volume of opponents ensures that at least one of them will beat the save and be able to attack.
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Offline littha

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2012, 05:22:21 AM »
The problem then comes to the cleric having a high Fort and Will saves and an AC so high that he is not liable to take that much damage anyway.

Offline veekie

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2012, 05:42:00 AM »
Yeah but again, consider the number of foes present. Those attributes only serves to delay, which is why winning strategies start with avoiding conflict until few enemies remain, and engaging from range where possible.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
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Offline littha

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2012, 05:56:21 AM »
Inside his sanctuary with his defences high the cleric is avoiding combat. In the beginning there are many better targets, thus he should be ignored until pretty much no other targets remain.

Offline veekie

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2012, 06:36:43 AM »
That brings a second question: Are the characters present running auto-attack killbots, basic strategy scripts or intelligent players?

Intelligent players stuck with a weaker class setup might actually gang up on and target the most powerful classes just so they have a chance of winning.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

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And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Arz

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2012, 12:08:30 PM »
The early engagers like Dragonfire Adept are going to have a strong advantage in tons of looted alchemicals that they can later turn on powerful single foes. So I can't say that sitting it out is the best strategy, since it provides no gain.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Level 1 free-for-all, who is likely to win?
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2012, 12:28:16 PM »
The early engagers like Dragonfire Adept are going to have a strong advantage in tons of looted alchemicals that they can later turn on powerful single foes. So I can't say that sitting it out is the best strategy, since it provides no gain.
Looted alchemical items will help, but waiting both 1) runs out your opponent's buff timers, and 2) leaves you with fewer opponents. Also, those opponents will have fewer daily and encounter resources left.

Basically, if you can stay out of range of tanglefoot bags and acid vials, those pilfered alchemical items won't really be an advantage, anyway.
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