Author Topic: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer  (Read 14734 times)

Offline malboro_urchin

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3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« on: June 21, 2012, 09:20:04 AM »
Hi all!

I'm involved in a 3.5 campaign that should go, at most, up to level 9.
My character is a focused conjurer 3, with an emphasis on battlefield control, not summoning.
Sources allowed: The completes, core, PHB2
Feats: Extend Spell, Metamagic School Focus (conj), Sculpt Spell
Banned schools: Evocation, Enchantment, Abjuration

My spells known so far:
1st level conjuration: Benign Transposition, Grease, Mage Armor, Wall of Smoke
Illusion: Net of Shadows, Silent Image
Transmutation: Enlarge Person, Ray of Clumsiness
Necromancy: Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd level conjuration: Glitterdust, Web

The spells I plan on learning: Cloud of knives (conjuration), cloud of bewilderment (conjuration), ray of weakness (necromancy), wall of gloom (illusion), shadow spray (illusion)
and I plan on taking the reserve feat Shadow Veil at 5th level and fueling it with Wall of Gloom.
I can provide rationales for each spell if necessary, but I'd like feedback and suggestions regarding my spell choices. This is my first wizard, and I want to make sure I'm doing it right. I appreciate your responses.

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Offline mrorangesoda

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2012, 10:46:15 AM »
This may just be me (and my beguiler) but I was disappointed in Net of Shadows. I think there are better ways to cut off an enemy groups' vision, and with wall of smoke (and silent image if you're willing to concentrate) you've already got targeted versions available to you at 1st level and ,if you're willing to burn a 2nd level spell, have glitterdust to blind them while denying them a concealment bonus.

Offline ZeroSpace

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2012, 02:05:54 PM »
I would recommend picking up Fog Cloud, since with a reduced Sculpt Spell on it, you can use it to block off just the right lines of vision, or just one large area. Normally, the small upgrade variants of spells aren't too hot (Minor Image, for example), but the ability to cast it at range makes FC much better than Obscuring Mist.

I would also recommend a Summon Monster spell at some point, but it gets a lot better at SM3, so you could wait until level 5 before before picking up a summon spell. For increased mobility, Levitate or Swift Fly(SpC) are really good, although Swift Fly is a bit more situational. Lastly, given the fairly low level right now, Blockade(CS) is really versatile, although be sure to pick it up in scroll form.

For the most part, your spell list looks pretty good. At this point, although it's a little ways off, I would suggest starting to look at 3rd level spells to pick up later.
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Offline malboro_urchin

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2012, 03:57:58 PM »
I would recommend picking up Fog Cloud, since with a reduced Sculpt Spell on it, you can use it to block off just the right lines of vision, or just one large area. Normally, the small upgrade variants of spells aren't too hot (Minor Image, for example), but the ability to cast it at range makes FC much better than Obscuring Mist.

Doesn't this only apply to ranged attackers/spellcasters? We've mainly been facing melee enemies, and our two main damage dealers are a duskblade and a barbarian, so wouldn't fog cloud just hinder them?

I would also recommend a Summon Monster spell at some point, but it gets a lot better at SM3, so you could wait until level 5 before before picking up a summon spell. For increased mobility, Levitate or Swift Fly(SpC) are really good, although Swift Fly is a bit more situational. Lastly, given the fairly low level right now, Blockade(CS) is really versatile, although be sure to pick it up in scroll form.

The party cleric has summon monster covered. He took the elemental summons variant from either Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook, and has used the air octupus or squid to grapple enemies to great effect. I don't see why Blockade is any good. It's just a block of wood that blocks line of sight. Melee can just walk around it and try to hit me (though they'd fail because of extended mage armor, small size, and abrupt jaunt)

Thanks for your comments
malboro_urchin

Offline darqueseid

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2012, 05:04:03 PM »
# 1 how did you take metamagic school focus (conj) without the prerequisite school focus (conj)

# 2 Why did you take MMSF at all in the first place?  its terrible, except for certain builds.

# 3 What are you planning to PRC into at 6th level?  there's absolutely no reason to stay a wiz after level 5 (no additional class features) (I suggest Mage of arcane order for one)

# 4 your feats should be building to getting you into that PRC, whatever it may be. 

# 5 scare, cause fear, mount,  unseen servant,  summon swarm, ghoul touch, mirror image...
You've skipped some of the best BFC spells for enlarge person?? for Benign transposition?? mage armor?? net of shadows?
Not that these spells aren't useful, they all can be, but not as valuable in as many different situations as those above.

its ok, for a new mage its not expected that you will make the best spell selections.  but looking forward you need to fill your spell list with 4 kinds of spells:
will save or suck 
Con save or suck
Reflex save or suck
No save and suck.

And generally you want a touch(close range) spell of the above type, a ranged (target) spell and an area effect. 

Causing Fear is your will save or suck and some illusions
Ghoul touch and stinking cloud are your fort save or sucks
web and the like are your reflex save or suck
and spells like sleet storm, and ray of exhaustion can be your no save or sucks. 
And thats just a taste from the SRD there are bunches more that are probably better in the spell compendium.  (Ray of dizziness I'm looking at you)

Keep this in mind when your selecting your spells for the future, obviously the "no save" and still suck spells are the best, but some of the other save or suck/dies are situationally good too. 



« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 11:03:58 AM by darqueseid »

Offline Vampireshado

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2012, 05:32:15 PM »
I like Hail of Stone. It's pretty much the only damage spell I ever use ever. That's not really BFC but I thought I'd mention it.
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Offline mrorangesoda

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2012, 09:57:35 PM »
Doesn't this only apply to ranged attackers/spellcasters? We've mainly been facing melee enemies, and our two main damage dealers are a duskblade and a barbarian, so wouldn't fog cloud just hinder them?

Keep in mind Net of Shadows (since it grants concealment to the subject) is going to do the same thing if used on someone that the duskblade or barbarian is/is going to attack.

Offline ZeroSpace

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2012, 01:36:55 AM »
Doesn't this only apply to ranged attackers/spellcasters? We've mainly been facing melee enemies, and our two main damage dealers are a duskblade and a barbarian, so wouldn't fog cloud just hinder them?

Actually, since you do already have Silent Image in your spellbook, I'll concede that you probably don't need to pick up Fog Cloud. With that said, to answer why you use it with melee tanks in the group, you let the enemy come to you.

The party cleric has summon monster covered. He took the elemental summons variant from either Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook, and has used the air octupus or squid to grapple enemies to great effect. I don't see why Blockade is any good. It's just a block of wood that blocks line of sight. Melee can just walk around it and try to hit me (though they'd fail because of extended mage armor, small size, and abrupt jaunt)

Thanks for your comments
malboro_urchin

In regards to Summon Monster, fair enough, let the cleric cast that. As for Blockade, with how low a level you are, any measure of defense is good, and putting a 5ft cube of wood between you and a bad man with a sword, well... Let's just say I call it the 'Charge Blocker' for when I don't have a tank between me and said bad man and call it a day.

On the note of defense, I would see about picking up Mirror Image fairly quickly. Being molested by an orc (or whatever) is still fairly likely at lvl 3. You still don't have enough HP or AC that a lone orc will have screaming like a bitch if left unchecked.

I like Hail of Stone. It's pretty much the only damage spell I ever use ever. That's not really BFC but I thought I'd mention it.

I suppose Hail of Stone would be a good vessel for the right Metamagic feats, but straight damage is decidedly meh. For a level one spell though, it is pretty good at what it does.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2012, 07:29:43 AM »
If you take Skill Focus (Conjuration) in place of MMSF, you can qualify for Master Specialist (Complete Mage) right at 3rd level. Even if you'd rather take another PrC, you can take two or three levels of that for a few abilities. This will likely end up hurting your BAB, but your Will save will come out better for it.
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Offline malboro_urchin

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2012, 12:53:16 PM »
If you take Skill Focus (Conjuration) in place of MMSF, you can qualify for Master Specialist (Complete Mage) right at 3rd level. Even if you'd rather take another PrC, you can take two or three levels of that for a few abilities. This will likely end up hurting your BAB, but your Will save will come out better for it.

I've already taken those feats. As mentioned in the original post, we're at level 3, so Extend Spell, MMSF, and Sculpt Spell are spoken for. I looked at Master Specialist, and the majority of the esoterica benefits are geared towards summoning creatures, which I don't like to do because I don't enjoy the extra bookkeeping that entails. Spell focus (conjuration) or hell, even spell focus (illusion) considering the amount of illusion spells I've fallen in love with, would be good choices for the future. I would like to take the Shadow Veil reserve feat at 5th level, because I want to be able to do something useful every round.

# 1 how did you take metamagic school focus (conj) without the prerequisite school focus (conj)

# 2 Why did you take MMSF at all in the first place?  its terrible, except for certain builds.

# 3 What are you planning to PRC into at 6th level?  there's absolutely no reason to stay a wiz after level 5 (no additional class features) (I suggest Mage of arcane order for one)

# 4 your feats should be building to getting you into that PRC, whatever it may be. 

# 5 scare, cause fear, mount,  unseen servant,  summon swarm, ghoul touch, mirror image...
You've skipped some of the best BFC spells for enlarge person?? for Benign transposition?? mage armor?? net of shadows?
Not that these spells aren't useful, they all can be, but not as valuable in as many different situations as those above.

its ok, for a new mage its not expected that you will make the best spell selections.  but looking forward you need to fill your spell list with 4 kinds of spells:
will save or suck 
Con save or suck
Reflex save or suck
No save and suck.

And generally you want a touch(close range) spell of the above type, a ranged (target) spell and an area effect. 

Causing Fear is your will save or suck and some illusions
Ghoul touch and stinking cloud are your fort save or sucks
web and the like are your reflex save or suck
and spells like sleet storm, and ray of exhaustion can be your no save or sucks. 
And thats just a taste from the SRD there are bunches more that are probably better in the spell compendium.  (Ray of dizziness I'm looking at you)

Keep this in mind when your selecting your spells for the future, obviously the "no save" and still suck spells are the best, but some of the other save or suck/dies are situationally good too.

@darqueseid
#1: Please reread the prerequisites for MMSF.
#2: Being able to freely sculpt my glitterdust spells right off the bat at 3rd level, as well as quadrupling the area (and therefore effectiveness) of grease without burning a 2nd level spell slot to do so, right off the bat, doesn't seem terrible in the least. It's very convenient. If nothing else, I can freely extend mage armor and walk around with 18AC for as long as we're out adventuring. I don't understand why you dislike it. Those builds you spoke of: what level range were they meant to be played in? I've said that the highest level we're likely to attain is level 9, and we started from level 1.
#3: I agree that the wizard gets no class features after 5th. However, I plan to take a reserve feat at 5th. I would like to take Cooperative Spell at 6th and advance from there onto Mage of the Arcane Order, as spellpool versatility is very nice. The initiation fee worries me, as I'm currently spending a large portion of my gp scribing all the 2nd level spells I want into my spellbook. However, I do plan to PrC into Mage of the Arcane Order.
#4: I disagree. Since our game is playing within a relatively short/low level range, I think my feats should allow me to craft an enjoyable experience for myself and the rest of the party. So far, being able to avoid our melee party members and to snag the enemies within a sculpted glitterdust right off the bat accomplishes that quite nicely. There's no point in building to level 20 (and taking feats that make low level play difficult) when we won't be advancing to 20.
#5: How exactly are mount and unseen servant BFC? Benign transposition most certainly is. Cloistered cleric gets grappled, switch him out for the barbarian. I do agree with the fact that I completely forgot about mirror image. However, I have Abrupt Jaunt and mage armor, both of which will go quite far in keeping me safe.

The latter part of your post seemed slightly condescending. Forgive me if I'm reading into something that isn't there, or if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. This isn't a personal attack, just what I got from reading that section of your post. Also my char is a 3rd level wizard. Some of the spells you named, like sleet storm and ray of exhaustion, are out of my reach for now. Do note that with my current feat selection, I'll be able to turn sleet storm into 4 10ft. cubes, which should in all likelihood keep my allies out of the spell's area of effect while my enemies suffer the spell's effects.

Offline darqueseid

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2012, 02:04:58 PM »
#1 ahh yes a specialist, ok just missed that or I thought it was and

#2 MMSF is terrible because metamagic feats at low level are terrible and even if you for some reason love metamagic feats, it only lets you do it on a select # of spells 3xday.  In all ways a rod of lesser extend+ a rod of lesser sculpt is better at a cost of just 3000g + 5400g.  Both are attainable by 5th level btw given just normal character wealth.   You would get MUCH more use out of  the rods as opposed to burning 3 feats to do the same thing. 
given that you should have on average 36,000 gp when you reach 9th level, that amounts to less than 25% of the total wealth you should get. 
And while we're on the topic, spending character wealth for spells is a terrible idea, especially if you plan to go MOTAO, I mean aren't you going to meet some fellow mages there?  I suppose buying spells as a one-off for absolutely necesessary spells is ok if you have an extremely stingy DM, but come on.  RP getting access to a friendly wizards spellbook.  do a quest for a fellow wizard so he'll give you access.  And anyway you aren't forgetting the 2 free spells you get per level are you?   If your DM is so stingy that he doesn't let you do the main thing a wizard is good for, you should have played a sorcerer.   

- in terms of builds that take advantage of MMSF, a shadowcraft mage comes to mind as one example:  illusionist5/scm4(raw early entry with earth spell and probably needs one flaw) with earthsense/earth spell/heighten spell/mmsf/ can heighten to +2 spell levels.   MMSF effectively would allow him to cast any conj(creation/summoning) or evocation spell up to 6th level 3x day (at 9th level with 70% reality).  Strictly a better use of mmsf than what your using it for.  Even at a relatively low power level...

for
point #4) I don't mean that you should use feats to reduce your fun, rather the opposite.  The wizard gets only ONE feat at 5th level.  while thats ok, there are multiple PRCs out there that offer you class features that are much better than feats.  And some even offer you a bonus feat right along with those additional class features (motao being a good example).   You should take feats that get you out of the base wizard class as soon as possible.   THen you can play with what additional things you get.  sure, your first 3 levels may be painful, but the rest of the game your playing in a more optimized way. 

for #5,  rename mount as "Wall of light horse" with 19 hps as its bfc possibilities in a dungeon, the Movement it gives you when your outside is good for positioning(you did take ride right?), and its most basic utility in not having to hire a horse is often nice.  Unseen servant is not bfc as much as it is utility, but it can carry a tower shield and jump in the way if something pointy is attacking you, saving at least one round.  its utility out of combat is unmatched.  So I guess the point here is that you want spells that give you options in all situations not just combat, and those two can provide options all around. 
(I'm assuming we're in agreement about the bfc utility of scare, cause fear,  summon swarm, ghoul touch, mirror image)

As far as the spell lists I mentioned, I was trying to give you insight on what to choose looking forward in addition to giving options as to what you still need to grab. 

I'm sorry if I was condescending, in this or the earlier post, that was not my intention.  I only wanted to impart what I've learned playing wizards and I'm sorry if it was not relayed in the best way. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 02:07:28 PM by darqueseid »

Offline darqueseid

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2012, 02:19:38 PM »
Oh and I don't like mage armor because of  the math

Mage armor makes it at best 20% less likely for you to be hit all things being equal (which it isn't, in fact its far less protection than that but we'll give you its best result)

Mirror image makes it a minimum of around 67% likely that you'll be missed in almost all situations.  even when one image is left its 50/50.  still far better than mage armor

if you add in the fact that you can abrupt jaunt too, I just don't think your getting much use out of mage armor, you really shouldn't ever be in a situation where an enemy has the ability to hit you so much that +4 ac is really helping you(especially at the cost of a spell slot too). 

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2012, 05:11:32 PM »
Unseen servant is not bfc as much as it is utility
Unseen servant is too BFC.  Ever played Red Hand of Doom?

Bad guys in a room in a dungeon.  A Bard leader, two 3rd level clerics, and some warrior mooks, facing a party of ~8th level PC's.  A cleric casts obscuring mist, and the bard casts Unseen Servant, telling it to close the door every round on the Bard's turn.

PC's open door, get attacked by mooks, can't move into room.  Half a round goes by, Bard's turn, Unseen Servant closes door.  PC in front of door has already acted this round.

PC's delay (but some of the mooks ready actions), PC in front of door opens door as a move action, gets tagged by mooks.  Some of the PC's strike with ranged abilities; several mooks die.  Two of the party move through the open door.  Bard's turn, Unseen Servant closes the door, splitting the party, and forcing one of them to waste another move action to open the door.

And on, and on it goes...

Edit: actually, because of the obscuring mist, there are no ranged attacks to take out the mooks (or they are at least hindered), thus it takes even longer.  PC in front opens door, eats a readied attack, then attacks foe in front... the mooks behind the first one have readied actions to move into the doorway when the front mook dies...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 05:15:05 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline strider24seven

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2012, 11:14:37 AM »
#2 MMSF is terrible because metamagic feats at low level are terrible and even if you for some reason love metamagic feats, it only lets you do it on a select # of spells 3xday.  In all ways a rod of lesser extend+ a rod of lesser sculpt is better at a cost of just 3000g + 5400g.  Both are attainable by 5th level btw given just normal character wealth.   You would get MUCH more use out of  the rods as opposed to burning 3 feats to do the same thing. 
given that you should have on average 36,000 gp when you reach 9th level, that amounts to less than 25% of the total wealth you should get. 
And while we're on the topic, spending character wealth for spells is a terrible idea, especially if you plan to go MOTAO, I mean aren't you going to meet some fellow mages there?  I suppose buying spells as a one-off for absolutely necesessary spells is ok if you have an extremely stingy DM, but come on.  RP getting access to a friendly wizards spellbook.  do a quest for a fellow wizard so he'll give you access.  And anyway you aren't forgetting the 2 free spells you get per level are you?   If your DM is so stingy that he doesn't let you do the main thing a wizard is good for, you should have played a sorcerer.   

I'd like to disagree with you on the topic of MMSF.  I find it to be a godsend at low levels.  Since you can't afford a metamagic rod at level 3 (the OP's starting level), having 3 Sculpted Conjurations per day is awesome.  And I think that while two metamagic rods totaling 8,400 gp are really good, I think that you could spend that money on something much better, like, Boccob's Blessed Book, Heward's Handy Haversack, Heward's Fortifying Bedroll, etc, etc, etc. 

I'd also like to disagree with you on the topic of purchasing spells.  Not every DM likes giving the wizard, who is likely the most powerful member of the team, access to free spells via roleplaying.  In fact, every DM I've played with who have done this (six so far), did it precisely once before deciding to make me pay for it.  Besides, not every friendly wizard is going to have the spells you want, so purchasing from a Magic Mart tends to be a tad more feasible.  And just fyi, unless you have a -lot- of spellcasters in the party, 2 free spells per level up is not enough unless you are a shadowcraft mage or get free spells from other class features or feats like Elven Generalist or Collegiate Wizard.  This is true even if you have Mage of the Arcane Order levels, since you can only cast spontaneously from a limited number of spell slots.

I will both agree and disagree with you on Mage Armour as well.  Mirror Image is better in a large number of cases, but Mage Armour works in all cases but two (Void Incarnates and Force Dragons).  Mirror Image is foiled by anything that sees through Illusions... in this case Tremorsense, Blindsight, Touchsight, Mindsight, True Seeing, Revelation, etc.  And Mirror Image gets reduced in effectiveness over time.  One Fireball and Mirror Image is gone.  1 volley of Manticore spikes and most of your images (if not all) are gone.  Mage Armour, on the other hand, lasts all day and isn't reduced in effectiveness after a few attacks. 

TL;DR:
a)  MMSF is awesome, especially at low levels
b)  Buying spells is awesome, even necessary IMO
c)  Mirror Image is good, but don't knock Mage Armour.  Greater Mirror Image, on the other hand...

Offline malboro_urchin

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2012, 09:23:59 AM »
My apologies for posting delay; my weekend was busy, and included both preparations for an accounting test and an incredibly difficult encounter when our gaming session met.

TL;DR:
a)  MMSF is awesome, especially at low levels
b)  Buying spells is awesome, even necessary IMO
c)  Mirror Image is good, but don't knock Mage Armour.  Greater Mirror Image, on the other hand...


I agree with all of these points. 2 spells per level for a conjurer, when I pretty much need ALL OF THE 2ND LEVEL SPELLS because they're so damn good, is not enough. its 300gp per spell, and I think I can afford that now that we've happened across some more gp and magic items. I'm carrying a few unidentified magic items (a necklace and a wand) and the rest of the party has some other gear.


After fighting an enemy wizard and meeting the duskblade, the party was dropped down a trapdoor garbage chute. We fought some eye-things (lurking stranglers I think? I make a point of not memorizing monster info or looking through the Monster Manuals because I don't like metagaming that much) and 2 oozes (not at the same time).
The last fight (and remember, we were all at level 3 in a low-op environment):

Us: Me (focused specialist conjurer 3 with abrupt jaunt), barbarian (dwarf with reckless rage, extra rage, power attack, and I believe a level of fighter for the feat), duskblade (his race is a mystery and plot-related, and I don't know his feats), scout (plans on taking levels of ranger with swift hunter), cleric (a bit of a luck theme to him, summons things and buffs the party), and a kobold bard that we met whilst in the dungeon

Them: 2 CR 6 augmented ambush drakes and some trap in the corner made of crystal that cast a few spells (I think earthen grasp, something prismatic, a spell that did int damage).

We got our asses handed to us. We rolled poorly, our barbarian hardly hit. Eventually, the barbarian lost most of his ac to both raging and dex damage from the ambush drakes' poison. It didn't help that the drakes got 22's and 23's to hit. The barbarian was also hit several times with slow breath, and he ended up fighting most of the fight from prone (I don't remember how he fell). Our duskblade took int damage and couldn't cast, then took either str or dex damage and couldn't do anything. The cleric burned his spells for healing, because otherwise the barbarian would have died. I went through all my spells (no reserve feats or anything just yet). I had 3 grease spells prepared, 2 sculpted. I had at least 1 glitterdust. I had a web spell. I went through all of it, and their saves were stupidly high, like fort +11, ref +6, will +5. My dc's are either 15 (1st level spells) or 16 (2nd level spells) and I don't have the feats available to take spell focus. The only thing I could have done differently (as we didn't rest before the encounter and were never given any indication that we should have ran away, or that the encounter would be that difficult) was prepared less greases and more benign transpositions so that the barbarian could have at least gotten to stand up without provoking an AoO that he couldn't handle. My wizard ran from the combat after blowing all his spells to little/no effect. I had to leave early (someone else played my char) but I gather that the DM pretty much threw us the encounter near the end. It was unpleasant.

I did gather that spell focus (conjuration) wouldn't have done much (I dunno if a 5% chance is worth a feat that could be doing so many other things) and that sculpt spell for free saved our asses. The LAST thing we needed in that encounter was the enemies making their saves against my spells while my allies failed their saves.

To those of you talking about wealth by level: When does the DM just say: "You have gold as per the DMG, buy stuff" except at character creation? The gp we find is divvied up among the party equally, and a good portion of our wealth is tied up in magic items, many of which we haven't identified because we want out of the dungeon we're trapped inside.

Offline strider24seven

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2012, 10:44:23 AM »

TL;DR:
a)  MMSF is awesome, especially at low levels
b)  Buying spells is awesome, even necessary IMO
c)  Mirror Image is good, but don't knock Mage Armour.  Greater Mirror Image, on the other hand...


I agree with all of these points. 2 spells per level for a conjurer, when I pretty much need ALL OF THE 2ND LEVEL SPELLS because they're so damn good, is not enough. its 300gp per spell, and I think I can afford that now that we've happened across some more gp and magic items. I'm carrying a few unidentified magic items (a necklace and a wand) and the rest of the party has some other gear.


To further clarify the 2nd point, as a conjurer, HALF of your free spells per level must be conjuration spells.  It's really hard to fit all of your desired spells known from four schools into 1 spell per level without purchasing extras. 

Offline darqueseid

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 01:14:23 PM »
My apologies for posting delay; my weekend was busy, and included both preparations for an accounting test and an incredibly difficult encounter when our gaming session met.

TL;DR:
a)  MMSF is awesome, especially at low levels
b)  Buying spells is awesome, even necessary IMO
c)  Mirror Image is good, but don't knock Mage Armour.  Greater Mirror Image, on the other hand...


I agree with all of these points. 2 spells per level for a conjurer, when I pretty much need ALL OF THE 2ND LEVEL SPELLS because they're so damn good, is not enough. its 300gp per spell, and I think I can afford that now that we've happened across some more gp and magic items. I'm carrying a few unidentified magic items (a necklace and a wand) and the rest of the party has some other gear.


After fighting an enemy wizard and meeting the duskblade, the party was dropped down a trapdoor garbage chute. We fought some eye-things (lurking stranglers I think? I make a point of not memorizing monster info or looking through the Monster Manuals because I don't like metagaming that much) and 2 oozes (not at the same time).
The last fight (and remember, we were all at level 3 in a low-op environment):

Us: Me (focused specialist conjurer 3 with abrupt jaunt), barbarian (dwarf with reckless rage, extra rage, power attack, and I believe a level of fighter for the feat), duskblade (his race is a mystery and plot-related, and I don't know his feats), scout (plans on taking levels of ranger with swift hunter), cleric (a bit of a luck theme to him, summons things and buffs the party), and a kobold bard that we met whilst in the dungeon

Them: 2 CR 6 augmented ambush drakes and some trap in the corner made of crystal that cast a few spells (I think earthen grasp, something prismatic, a spell that did int damage).

We got our asses handed to us. We rolled poorly, our barbarian hardly hit. Eventually, the barbarian lost most of his ac to both raging and dex damage from the ambush drakes' poison. It didn't help that the drakes got 22's and 23's to hit. The barbarian was also hit several times with slow breath, and he ended up fighting most of the fight from prone (I don't remember how he fell). Our duskblade took int damage and couldn't cast, then took either str or dex damage and couldn't do anything. The cleric burned his spells for healing, because otherwise the barbarian would have died. I went through all my spells (no reserve feats or anything just yet). I had 3 grease spells prepared, 2 sculpted. I had at least 1 glitterdust. I had a web spell. I went through all of it, and their saves were stupidly high, like fort +11, ref +6, will +5. My dc's are either 15 (1st level spells) or 16 (2nd level spells) and I don't have the feats available to take spell focus. The only thing I could have done differently (as we didn't rest before the encounter and were never given any indication that we should have ran away, or that the encounter would be that difficult) was prepared less greases and more benign transpositions so that the barbarian could have at least gotten to stand up without provoking an AoO that he couldn't handle. My wizard ran from the combat after blowing all his spells to little/no effect. I had to leave early (someone else played my char) but I gather that the DM pretty much threw us the encounter near the end. It was unpleasant.

I did gather that spell focus (conjuration) wouldn't have done much (I dunno if a 5% chance is worth a feat that could be doing so many other things) and that sculpt spell for free saved our asses. The LAST thing we needed in that encounter was the enemies making their saves against my spells while my allies failed their saves.

To those of you talking about wealth by level: When does the DM just say: "You have gold as per the DMG, buy stuff" except at character creation? The gp we find is divvied up among the party equally, and a good portion of our wealth is tied up in magic items, many of which we haven't identified because we want out of the dungeon we're trapped inside.


number one, what is the DM doing throwing  TWO CR 6 (plus augmented whatever that adds) mobs at a party of level 3s? if you just have the standard number of characters then you shouldn't be facing TWO cr 6 monsters in any battle.   

I mean I'm not in the campaign, maybe you guys have made some poor RP choices, or whatnot, but if I were DMing I wouldn't throw that kind of difficulty at you without you making some serious mistakes.   It doesn't suprise me that you got your butts kicked honestly, only a group of Optimized characters could handle that fight and even then it probably wouldnt be easy without some TO cheese

As to the point about MMSF being terrible, I'm telling you it sucks because low level metamagic sucks, sure sculpt is ok, but you should be able to orient your spells such that your party members are not caught in the area MOST of the time.  As far as the barbarian being in the way, both of you go in for the 4000g cost of spellguard rings from complete mage. (you both wear a ring, and you can make the other wearer immune to the effects of any of your spell(s) 3xday)   

Also there are a bunch of feats that are strictly better; Feats that are better than MMSF at your level:
-Any feat like otherworldly that gives you outsider/dragon etc types: plus alter self.
-Cloudy conjuration - free sickening and obscuring effect added to EVERY conjuration you cast, with no need for an additional metamagic feat. (no save, so sicken anything that can be sickened)
-Spellcasting Prodigy - + to save dCs and more importantly, more spells per day
- Arcane Manipulation - this is good (esp with prodigy and focused specialist... can you break up a focused slot into lower level general slots? its good even if you have to keep them conj) and just continually gets better as you level up
- Several of the reserve feats from complete mage are good - for a DM focused on combat these can give you good options (some are admittedly crap, but some are good at your level and the +1 caster level can be good) Oh and they don't provide a save...
- Alacritous cogitation - can be useful for versatility,  and again this feats usefulness grows as you level up
- Hell Improved initiative might even be a better use of your time...

Extend spell, is probably the only metamagic you should bother with, if at all.  but its not even that great until higher levels.  I wouldn't bother with metamagic at all until 5th level or higher.  Sure you can get mileage out of a free sculpt 3xday-every option is siituationally useful, but given that you have much better options at your level (see above) you shouldn't burn TWO of those better options just to do it. 
And a rod of sculpt (lesser) only costs 5400gp.  My point about the cost is that you should be able to afford it at some point around 5th when it really becomes useful.  And a rod of extend is even less expensive at 3000gp.  if you can't afford them, then you have a stingy DM (maybe sadistic too, because he's clearly trying to kill you). 

btw, We're talking wealth by level because its the only baseline for character wealth we have in a game (since one was not given in the OP).  Generally if a DM doesn't keep to that wealth baseline, he is stingy.  That's not to say that a low magic item game can't be fun its just to say that the DM is not keeping to the established baselines.  and anyway, the other feats I mentioned are worth taking over MMSF + sculpt and extend even if the rods are not an option for you in fact some of them even moreso, since you can't augment your power with money, you need to make powerfull feat selections.

A handy haversack is definately a good buy, I won't argue there, but its only 2000g.  and you really only need 1 or 2 for the entire party at your level, if your really a team that trusts each other, you guys should pitch in for one, not have everyone individually buy one.  And give it to the person who needs to get things as a move action the most (generally not the wiz, but it could be).

2 spells for level is plenty, actually, if you are selective enough with your choices (and with your feat choices), but assuming that you aren't, any time you meet another wizard you should be making the offer of trading spells.  If you do this every time, I don't see how a DM can ALWAYS deny one or two spells at least.  Seek out wizards in town, join the mages guild to foreshadow you becoming a MOTAO,  RP should be the primary way you get new spells.   Found scrolls should be the second.  bought scrolls should be a DISTANT third option.

Technically, a new wizard shouldn't have LOTS and LOTS of spells anyway.  Writing a spell from a scroll or spellbook into your spell book costs 100g in materials and 24 hours per spell (also a spellbook that can hold the right number of pages which does equate to an added cost.).  Most of the time DMs hand wave this(and should), but this cost is right there in the SRD... if one adds the cost of lots of scrolls on top of that; you will have a very poor wizard indeed... (on top of that do you have the time to scribe them anyway?)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 01:16:28 PM by darqueseid »

Offline strider24seven

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 04:55:55 PM »

number one, what is the DM doing throwing  TWO CR 6 (plus augmented whatever that adds) mobs at a party of level 3s? if you just have the standard number of characters then you shouldn't be facing TWO cr 6 monsters in any battle.   

I mean I'm not in the campaign, maybe you guys have made some poor RP choices, or whatnot, but if I were DMing I wouldn't throw that kind of difficulty at you without you making some serious mistakes.   It doesn't suprise me that you got your butts kicked honestly, only a group of Optimized characters could handle that fight and even then it probably wouldnt be easy without some TO cheese


I'd just like to note that the CR system is vastly borked and should be taken with a grain of salt.  While I agree that the ambush drakes were a bit much.... just saying that you shouldn't just look at CR for... well... anything.  See Allip, Ephemeral Swarm, the entire MM 2, etc.


As to the point about MMSF being terrible, I'm telling you it sucks because low level metamagic sucks, sure sculpt is ok, but you should be able to orient your spells such that your party members are not caught in the area MOST of the time.  As far as the barbarian being in the way, both of you go in for the 4000g cost of spellguard rings from complete mage. (you both wear a ring, and you can make the other wearer immune to the effects of any of your spell(s) 3xday)   

Also there are a bunch of feats that are strictly better; Feats that are better than MMSF at your level:
-Any feat like otherworldly that gives you outsider/dragon etc types: plus alter self.
-Cloudy conjuration - free sickening and obscuring effect added to EVERY conjuration you cast, with no need for an additional metamagic feat. (no save, so sicken anything that can be sickened)
-Spellcasting Prodigy - + to save dCs and more importantly, more spells per day
- Arcane Manipulation - this is good (esp with prodigy and focused specialist... can you break up a focused slot into lower level general slots? its good even if you have to keep them conj) and just continually gets better as you level up
- Several of the reserve feats from complete mage are good - for a DM focused on combat these can give you good options (some are admittedly crap, but some are good at your level and the +1 caster level can be good) Oh and they don't provide a save...
- Alacritous cogitation - can be useful for versatility,  and again this feats usefulness grows as you level up
- Hell Improved initiative might even be a better use of your time...

Extend spell, is probably the only metamagic you should bother with, if at all.  but its not even that great until higher levels.  I wouldn't bother with metamagic at all until 5th level or higher.  Sure you can get mileage out of a free sculpt 3xday-every option is siituationally useful, but given that you have much better options at your level (see above) you shouldn't burn TWO of those better options just to do it. 

On the topic of feats:
Otherworldly is 1st level only and region-specific.  It's awesome, but something you may wish to note because it's not an option for all characters. 

I think that all of your other recommendations are good except for Alacritous Cogitation, which (imho) is trash, simply because of the existance of Uncanny Forethought.  However, since Elder Evils isn't on the OP's list of desired sources, I would situationally upgrade this feat to "mostly trash."  If he really needs spontaneity, he can just leave a slot blank for utility and fill it in 15 minutes.  Alternatively, there's Spontaneous Divination... which is only really good if you purchase extra spells or acquire them from other wizards, as most of your spells from levels probably won't be divination spells. 

I will also quibble on the subject of metamagic feats.  I mean no offense by saying this, but thinking that Extend Spell is the only decent metamagic is laughable, especially at lower levels. 
See: 
Invisible Spell (not on the OP's list of allowed sources, but it's the point that matters)
Sculpt Spell- I'm pretty sure that quadrupling the effects of your spells is worth +1 spell level.  It's not just for avoiding your allies, or yourself in the case of AMF.  It takes all of those wonderful 10'x10' square creation spells and gives you four times the result. 
Silent Spell- Soley for Dimension Door with sadistic DM's (like the OP's)

The latter two can be noted as exceptionally useful with MMSF, as they are +1 and are amazing specifically for conjuration spells. 



And a rod of sculpt (lesser) only costs 5400gp.  My point about the cost is that you should be able to afford it at some point around 5th when it really becomes useful.  And a rod of extend is even less expensive at 3000gp.  if you can't afford them, then you have a stingy DM (maybe sadistic too, because he's clearly trying to kill you). 

btw, We're talking wealth by level because its the only baseline for character wealth we have in a game (since one was not given in the OP).  Generally if a DM doesn't keep to that wealth baseline, he is stingy.  That's not to say that a low magic item game can't be fun its just to say that the DM is not keeping to the established baselines.  and anyway, the other feats I mentioned are worth taking over MMSF + sculpt and extend even if the rods are not an option for you in fact some of them even moreso, since you can't augment your power with money, you need to make powerfull feat selections.

A handy haversack is definately a good buy, I won't argue there, but its only 2000g.  and you really only need 1 or 2 for the entire party at your level, if your really a team that trusts each other, you guys should pitch in for one, not have everyone individually buy one.  And give it to the person who needs to get things as a move action the most (generally not the wiz, but it could be).

2 spells for level is plenty, actually, if you are selective enough with your choices (and with your feat choices), but assuming that you aren't, any time you meet another wizard you should be making the offer of trading spells.  If you do this every time, I don't see how a DM can ALWAYS deny one or two spells at least.  Seek out wizards in town, join the mages guild to foreshadow you becoming a MOTAO,  RP should be the primary way you get new spells.   Found scrolls should be the second.  bought scrolls should be a DISTANT third option.

Technically, a new wizard shouldn't have LOTS and LOTS of spells anyway.  Writing a spell from a scroll or spellbook into your spell book costs 100g in materials and 24 hours per spell (also a spellbook that can hold the right number of pages which does equate to an added cost.).  Most of the time DMs hand wave this(and should), but this cost is right there in the SRD... if one adds the cost of lots of scrolls on top of that; you will have a very poor wizard indeed... (on top of that do you have the time to scribe them anyway?)

And now we get to the part where I would vehemently disagree with you.  While the rods are really good, a wizards 1st major buy (after chipping in for the party's Handy Haversack) should be a Boccob's Blessed Book, which removes most of the limitations of scribing scrolls into your spellbook.  In my experience (3 dozen different DM's to date), no DM has yet to waive the cost of scribing into spellbooks... so I'd like to play with your DM's if they're that lenient. 

As for the prospects of acquiring spells from other wizards... I have found this to be unlikely at best... maybe snagging a few minor spells as a quest reward.  However, I've never been able to acquire a good, balanced selection of staple spells as a specialist wizard without some form of monetary investment from purchasing scrolls... which have the added benefit of being able to cast them while you are scribing a large number into your spellbook in case of an emergency. 

As for your free spells, you would have to be pretty damn selective to find a balanced spell selection outside of your specialist school.  Over the course of 20 levels, could you really do with 20 non-specialist spells?  I'm certain I couldn't.  For example, let's look at the staple second level non-conjuration spells from the PHB (excluding abj, evo, ench):
Mirror Image
Alter Self
Rope Trick
See Invisibility
Blindness/Deafness (for low-level starts only)
False Life (again, low-level only, and small-party only imo)

Pick two of those.  That's pretty damn hard, especially with a smaller party.  This problem is chronic at all spell levels except 0th and 1st, and can only be realistically be alleviated by the purchasing of scrolls... you may find scrolls, but they are in no way (and probably aren't) the spells you want.  Again, friendly wizards are not guaranteed to share spells with you, nor are they guaranteed to have the spells you want, nor are they guaranteed to share the spells you want. 

I'm not saying that questing for spells or trading for spells is not viable... just that you shouldn't expect it or rely on it. 

Offline darqueseid

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Re: 3.5 spell selection for a focused conjurer
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2012, 11:05:27 AM »

I'd just like to note that the CR system is vastly borked and should be taken with a grain of salt.  While I agree that the ambush drakes were a bit much.... just saying that you shouldn't just look at CR for... well... anything.  See Allip, Ephemeral Swarm, the entire MM 2, etc.

No argument there, I think we agree...


On the topic of feats:
Otherworldly is 1st level only and region-specific.  It's awesome, but something you may wish to note because it's not an option for all characters. 

Agreed, I should have pointed it out that its region specific and would take dm fiat.  Though I did say feats "like" otherworldly as there are more feats to change types besides that specific one.  (and one could just take an outsider race but thats beside the point)

I think that all of your other recommendations are good except for Alacritous Cogitation, which (imho) is trash, simply because of the existance of Uncanny Forethought.  However, since Elder Evils isn't on the OP's list of desired sources, I would situationally upgrade this feat to "mostly trash."  If he really needs spontaneity, he can just leave a slot blank for utility and fill it in 15 minutes.  Alternatively, there's Spontaneous Divination... which is only really good if you purchase extra spells or acquire them from other wizards, as most of your spells from levels probably won't be divination spells. 

True UF does invalidate AC, but I was assuming that elder evils wasn't available.  I think all the other options are solid, so I can go along with your assessment of AC, but really I was only trying to throw out examples of feats he could have taken instead of MMSF AND a metamagic feat.  Even the most vanilla choices of those other options, is much better than MMSF+feat(s).  He's wasting two feats here to do a relatively minor effect 3xday, whereas he could be doing BFC with EVERY conjuration spell (cloudy) AND have more general spells/day +1 to DCs (spellcasting prodigy).   

I will also quibble on the subject of metamagic feats.  I mean no offense by saying this, but thinking that Extend Spell is the only decent metamagic is laughable, especially at lower levels. 
See: 
Invisible Spell (not on the OP's list of allowed sources, but it's the point that matters)
Sculpt Spell- I'm pretty sure that quadrupling the effects of your spells is worth +1 spell level.  It's not just for avoiding your allies, or yourself in the case of AMF.  It takes all of those wonderful 10'x10' square creation spells and gives you four times the result. 
Silent Spell- Soley for Dimension Door with sadistic DM's (like the OP's)

The latter two can be noted as exceptionally useful with MMSF, as they are +1 and are amazing specifically for conjuration spells. 


I think both invis spell and silent are situationally useful.  Yeah they are great when you need them, but they only help in such specific situations that again, its not worth TWO feats to do it.  Now if we were talking about a sorcerer who can apply feats on the fly I would agree, but the wizard must prepare the silent ones (even the MMSFed silent ones) before hand.

I agree on sculpt, that it is good, its just not good at low level.  I guess I should ammend that to say, its just not worth spending TWO feats early on.  So your talking about sculpting grease or glitterdust as far as increasing thier power.  Taking the ambush drakes as an example, you might have increased the effectiveness of either spell by Possibly 2x bit IF the drakes aren't already next to each other.  Again this is a situational effect that you have burned two feats to do...  if the DM throws one mob at you, sculpt is almost worthless, if the DM keeps the mobs together sculpt loses effectiveness, and if the DM spreads multiple mobs out, sculpt shines...  Cloudy conjuration works in ALL situations vs any mob that can be sickened, which is most of the low level ones, and having more spells is good in ALL situations. The same can be said for the staying power or utility of reserve feats, etc. 

And now we get to the part where I would vehemently disagree with you.  While the rods are really good, a wizards 1st major buy (after chipping in for the party's Handy Haversack) should be a Boccob's Blessed Book, which removes most of the limitations of scribing scrolls into your spellbook.  In my experience (3 dozen different DM's to date), no DM has yet to waive the cost of scribing into spellbooks... so I'd like to play with your DM's if they're that lenient. 

-Sure, the blessed book is good, but I think your not thinking within the bounds of the OP or even the continuing discussion(since hes basically implied that there's not alot of money around).  With the steep price of 12500gp it is highly unlikely that the character will be able to afford one until at least 6th level (average character wealth 13000gp).  But given that you've invariably spent money on other things in your adventuring carreer, including scribing spells into your book (and if you had your way, buying scrolls to only add to the costs), its unlikely to be acquired until 7th level (acw 19000gp)  and that's more than enough to have already purchased a metamagic rod of extend along with it, and by 8th level you could have all 3 items, a book, and both rods.

-So, if we're staying with averages, then it doesn't change the time frame for your major purchase of the book much if you buy a rod of extend early but it provides a great boon to your spells.  And if you buy the rod of sculpt it only delays your acquisition of the book by one level.  I'm actually not sure the OP will really get much use out of a book anyway - even if he has to pay full price for the spells he scribes the campaign is ending at 9th level, so by that time he's not getting alot out of it. 
(if the campaign were going on any longer I'd reverse my position on that though).

As for the prospects of acquiring spells from other wizards... I have found this to be unlikely at best... maybe snagging a few minor spells as a quest reward.  However, I've never been able to acquire a good, balanced selection of staple spells as a specialist wizard without some form of monetary investment from purchasing scrolls... which have the added benefit of being able to cast them while you are scribing a large number into your spellbook in case of an emergency. 

Strangely I've never had this problem, I've always been able to RP the acquisition of any necessary spells in a way that makes sense.  Under a multitude of different DMs over the past 20 years.  Maybe they were all too lenient on this point (or yours have been too stingy). 

As for your free spells, you would have to be pretty damn selective to find a balanced spell selection outside of your specialist school.  Over the course of 20 levels, could you really do with 20 non-specialist spells?  I'm certain I couldn't.  For example, let's look at the staple second level non-conjuration spells from the PHB (excluding abj, evo, ench):
Mirror Image
Alter Self
Rope Trick
See Invisibility
Blindness/Deafness (for low-level starts only)
False Life (again, low-level only, and small-party only imo)

Well only 2 of those spells are absolutely necessary staples.  Mirror image and alter self.  MAYBE I could give you Rope trick, because of its high utility, but it is not a BFC specialists staple-and I did provide for one off exceptions to buying spells you should buy them if its a MUST have.  Still, having rope trick at 3rd level is not as important as getting it at 8th(when you can sleep in it).  One should at least wait till a spell gains its most utility before purchasing it on a scroll.  Glitterdust is the poor mans see invis AND blindness spell all in one, and its conjuration.  False life is as ridiculous as mage armor for a conjurer.  An abrupt jaunting conjurer should not get hit just about ever.  And if he does it should be a mirror image that takes the blow most of the time. 

The Bottom line is; the feat choices were sub-optimal, buying spells, especially at low level was sub-optimal, and spell selection in general has been sub optimal.