Author Topic: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?  (Read 12174 times)

Offline Vampireshado

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Who even cares? Seriously though please tell me
    • View Profile
Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« on: June 22, 2012, 04:07:52 PM »
Okay so let's say that we are a Cleric 5/ Eldritch Master (From Dragon 280) 4/ Hathran 1/ Mystic Theurge 10.

Eldritch Master's forth level ability lets us learn spells from any one other class. Lets choose Archivist. They can learn any divine spell, and any (I think) arcane spell can be converted to divine using various methods. However these spells are cast as arcane regardless of their source.

Now lets make an item of Acorn of Far Travel, or just go back to Rashemen and cast it when we need to.

Would this allow any spell to be cast spontaneously?
Auruggh something witty! (nailed it)

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2012, 04:24:38 PM »
The Eldritch Master is on page 88 for those curious.

There are a few ways to convert arcane spells to divine.  One of them is the divine bard, which essentially puts all bard spells on the divine list if one can find a scroll of it.  I'm drawing a blank on the other ways to make other arcane spells divine for the purposes of being added to the Archivist's prayerbook.  Anyspell might not be doable for instance, but I'd have to look at the rules again.

Offline Vampireshado

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Who even cares? Seriously though please tell me
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2012, 04:29:56 PM »
Well Alternate Source Spell or Southern Magician both do it. Warlocks or Artificers working with divine casters can I believe. And with this combo that would allow any spell ever written on a whim correct?
Auruggh something witty! (nailed it)

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2012, 04:55:40 PM »
Southern Magician ran so rampet (sp) that it attracted the attention of WotC and it was ruled by the Sage not to qualify a Wizard for Walker of the Waste (or something like that) as it's not a true conversion. It shouldn't work really for anything of that sort.

Alternate Spell Source may, depending on if it's worded like or differently than Southern Magician. If not, it's generally easier to get Arcane versions of Divine Spells. Like quite a few True Dragons pick up the entire Cleric list and several domains, and there are subs present to pick up the Druid list as well. Even, a Warmage/Rainbow Servant/Prestigious Bard knows all every Warmage, Bard, or Cleric spell ever printed and can choose to cast any of them at a given time.

Offline Vampireshado

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Who even cares? Seriously though please tell me
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2012, 05:08:48 PM »
Well we get these for sure:
Druid 1-9th (Druid)
Adept 1-6th (Adept)
Cleric 1-9th (Cleric)
All Domains 1-9th (Cleric)
All Spells on Initiate Feats (Cleric and Druid initiate feats)
Wizard 1-6th (Lyric Thamateruge, adds spells to (Divine) Bard spell list)
Sorcerer 1-6th (Lyric Thamateruge)
Wizard/Sorcerer Necromancy, Divination and Abjuration 1-9th (Divine Magician ACF)
Bard 1-6th (Divine Bard)
Nenytar Hunter 1-4th (Nenytar Hunter)
Any PrC divine list
Paladin 1-4th (Paladin, all variants)
Healer All (Healer)
Shugenja 1-9th (Shugenja)
Shugenja Order spells 1-9th (Shugenja)
Shaman (OA) 1-9th (Shaman)

And then we should be able to Alternate Source Spell for everything else I think. Regardless since cleric know every spell on their list and Eldritch Master add's spells to the list we should automatically know almost every, if not every spell ever.
Auruggh something witty! (nailed it)

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2012, 05:13:25 PM »
Based on either of those, it looks like a technical yes.

With that build though, how are you getting into EM from Cleric? Southern Magician or Anyspell I'm guessing?  And I honestly can't tell if you'd get 9th level spells from that build because of how wonky EM's wording is.

For those wondering, the wording from Alternative Spell Source is:
Quote from: Dragon Mag 325
Benefit: You can choose to prepare any of your divine spells as arcane spells or any of your arcane spells as divine spells.  An alternative-sourced spell uses up a spell slot from the class that normally grants the spell.  Such a spell is prepared normally.  An alternative-sourced spell is cast as if your caster level were 1 level lower.  For example, a 1st-level cleric/6th-level wizard casts a divine fireball as a 5th-level wizard.

Offline Vampireshado

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Who even cares? Seriously though please tell me
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2012, 05:19:32 PM »
Magical Training + Precocious Apprentice + Alternate Source Spell swapping the First two out upon reaching EM 4 for EM qualification.

And you definitely get 9's because MT double progress'es cleric.
Auruggh something witty! (nailed it)

Offline betrayor

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
  • Monitoring...
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2012, 05:31:55 PM »
Hexer is a divine prestige class that can get any sorcerer/wizard spell as a divine spell thus making it available for archivist....
So an Archivist can cast any sorc/wis spell via hexer and so can do your build....

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2012, 05:32:25 PM »
In my experience I've rarely needed more flexibility than spontaneously casting either the whole Wizard or the whole Divine/Archivist list at the whole time.  Both seems overkill.  I'd rather just make my spells better than need more variety than Rasheman + Acorn of Far Travel gives me.

Offline Prime32

  • Over-Underling
  • Retired Admin
  • *****
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2012, 05:38:32 PM »
Actually, you don't need this trick. Just go wizard X/archivist 1/hathran X.

Rashemi Spirit Magic lets you use a wizard spell slot to cast any spell you know of the same level, from any of your spell lists. There's nothing stopping an lv1 archivist from adding lv9 spells to his prayerbook.


EDIT: Misread OP.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 05:43:07 PM by Prime32 »

Offline Vampireshado

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Who even cares? Seriously though please tell me
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2012, 06:13:44 PM »
Awesome so with Hexer we have all Wizard/Sorcerer spells. That should be about every spell in existence.
Auruggh something witty! (nailed it)

Offline betrayor

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
  • Monitoring...
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2012, 07:31:23 PM »
Awesome so with Hexer we have all Wizard/Sorcerer spells. That should be about every spell in existence.
The only spells that you can not cast are the Wu-jen only spells that are 8 level and above since you can duplicate the lower ones with miracle......

Offline Vampireshado

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Who even cares? Seriously though please tell me
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2012, 07:49:25 PM »
Dingle. That's a bummer I thought we got them all. Well with Alternate Source Spell we still have them... But is there a different way of obtaining them that is more DM acceptable?
Auruggh something witty! (nailed it)

Offline Prime32

  • Over-Underling
  • Retired Admin
  • *****
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2012, 08:05:12 PM »
But is there a different way of obtaining them that is more DM acceptable?
Just dip wu jen and learn them manually. There aren't a lot.

Offline Vampireshado

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Who even cares? Seriously though please tell me
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2012, 08:10:17 PM »
Yeah but the thought of dipping Wu Jen makes me cringe. :( Would I only need one level of it?
Auruggh something witty! (nailed it)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2012, 04:34:49 PM »
My spellcasting classes thread will help you make sure you have all your bases covered. I even mention the lists each uses...

Offline OblivionSmurf83

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 119
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2012, 06:45:30 AM »
I tried this trick a while back. Someone validly pointed out that the Archivist does not have its own spell list, and therefore may not be a valid choice for Eldritch Master.

You are better off having an Archivist base, then branching off into Chameleon with an Arcane focus. A Chameleon knows spells the same way a Wizard does; ie, they know everything in their spellbook. So, the combination of Archivist X / Chameleon 1 will allow you to know any Arcane or Divine spell around.


EDIT: To make it clearer, my solution abandons EM altogether. So you have, for example, Archivist 18/Chameleon 1/Hathran 1.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 06:49:29 AM by OblivionSmurf83 »

Offline Vampireshado

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Who even cares? Seriously though please tell me
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2012, 12:32:19 PM »
Well it depends on how you define spell list. I can't find a RAW definition of it anywhere, but I'm under the impression that it means something along the lines of "list of spells a class may learn." Which would make this work perfectly fine.

Thanks for bringing that up Plz it was helpful and I think I'm almost done with a pretty great spellcasting build that has access to every spell in print on a whim.

As for the Archivist/Chameleon idea, you can get every spell ever, but you have to go find and learn them which can be expensive and inconvenient.
Auruggh something witty! (nailed it)

Offline widow

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2012, 11:19:06 PM »
Well it depends on how you define spell list. I can't find a RAW definition of it anywhere, but I'm under the impression that it means something along the lines of "list of spells a class may learn." Which would make this work perfectly fine.

Thanks for bringing that up Plz it was helpful and I think I'm almost done with a pretty great spellcasting build that has access to every spell in print on a whim.

As for the Archivist/Chameleon idea, you can get every spell ever, but you have to go find and learn them which can be expensive and inconvenient.

I think you are going to be fighting an uphill battle.  With the expection of the archivist and chameleon, classes specifically draw spells from their spell list which is listed under class's "Spells" class ability.  While there is not an entry called "Spell list" in the SRD that gives a description of what that means specifically, there is a tab for "Spell Lists & Domains" which goes through what spells are on who's list.  Furthermore if you take the stand that there is no explanation in the book for what a spell list is, you are not in the position to freely declare and define this ability as per the RAW.  The omission of the words "spell list" under the archivist's spell casting entry and the use of the words "spell list" under the Eldrich Master's Spell Dilettante ability will be hard to circumvent.

Quote
An archivist casts divine spells, drawn primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells."

The Archivist/Chameleon trick works much better with scribe scroll feat and the extra spell known feat.  2 levels of chameleon grants the free floating feat each day, take extra spell known and scribe a scroll of the spell you want.  Change to another spell the next day and repeat.  Costs money, but not all that much.

Option 2 for is for a good archivist.  Take ancestral relic from the Book of exalted deeds.  Ancestral relic lets you effectly sac gold to craft without any pre-req's, but only increasing the value of the specific relic with a gp limit based on level.  Take a book relic, sac gold to the ancestral relic, and the added gp value you are adding is spells or scrolls.  If you can do spells directly it is easy to get any spell since no-prereq's are required.  If you are only allowed scrolls, copy scroll into you spell book and then read the scroll dropping the relic's cost allowing for the next scroll to added.

Both of these abilities are based on alternative sourced spell feat making all spells both divine and arcane.

My personal favorite build for the Eldrich Master is:

Bard 2/Cleric 1/Bard 2/Eldrich Master 4/Dweomer Keeper 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Dweomer Keeper 9

Selecting Cleric as your added list, you can pick Bard, Cleric, and Sorcerer spells with the sublime chord.  The level 3 arcane spell requirement is met with the Elrdrich Master's Spell boost ability granting a spell slot one level higher than you can cast.  Bard get level 2 spells at 4th, so level 3 with Eldrich Master.

Feats: Extend, Persistent, Divine Metamagic Persistent, Alternative Sourced Spell, Spell Focus Transmutation, Ability Enhancer, Spell Preparation

Ability enhancer increases all ability score bonuses by +2 with Transmutation spells.  Alterantive Sourced spell makes all your arcane spells divine for divine metamagic.  Spell Preparation might be needed for that because alternative sourced spell specifics you can prepare spells as the other time, not just cast them spontaneously.  Grab every spell that increases Cha, there are alot.  Add in Fell Energy spell and Kiss of the Vampire to increase the effectiveness of all your buff spells by an additional +2.  You can easily hit a Cha of 70.  Oh, and some of your best spells are supernatural with Dweomerkeeper so they cannot be dispel or disjoined.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Access to ANY spell at ANY time?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 06:59:42 PM »
Customize Domain feat from Dr#325 ... can do wonders.
SirP posted the details here:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13397.0

X-codes suggests the Chameleon 2 floating feat slot,
as the place to put it.  Sounds good to me.
EDIT --- combining X's and MM's in general.


That opens up just about everything.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 05:52:14 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
Your codpiece is a mimic.