Author Topic: Is this worth it ... scout/druid (aspect of nature/avenger) swift avenger build  (Read 6543 times)

Offline Volfogg

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Hey All,

Just wondering if this would be worth playing. Basic idea is uber dexterity for ranged combat. Build is as follows:

scout 2/druid 18 (aspect of nature/avenger[ferocity variant])

Important feats:
  • swift avenger
  • wf[longbow]
  • rapid shot
  • precise shot
  • pbs
  • dead eye
  • chaos rage
  • travel devotion

Items of note
  • belt of battle
  • tempo bloodspikes
  • splitting long bow

With the build outline above the character should be a pretty decent ranged combatant with multiple ways of moving and triggering full attack skirmish. Also, with roughly a +16 to dexterity from class features the character should be able to hit most things. Include a race such as elf as well as other dexterity based boosts and he should have around +15 bonus to damage with his bow (within 30').

Let me know what you think. If there are ways of improving this or please feel free to share your input/suggestions or ... should it be scrapped.

Cheers
Volf
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 01:09:43 PM by Volfogg »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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I assume Swift Avenger is a rework of Swift Hunter?  It doesn't work in this case.  The druid variant to get favored enemy loses out on all forms of wild shape, which precludes you from taking Aspect of Nature unless a DM says otherwise.  So far this looks more like a theoretical build, so no DM fiat means it won't work.

If you're looking for a ranged damage monster, it's almost necessary to take a couple levels in the Targetteer fighter variant in Dragon 310.  That allows the character to get dex to damage on ranged attacks through Vital Aim and to get an improved version of Rapid Shot called Arrow Swarm, which is essentially -5 on all attacks to get an extra two attacks on a full attack action.  I recently did a build based on this for someone, and it can be found here along with a lot of other tips and tricks.

There's also Dictum Mortuum's Swift Hunter's Handbook which has a lot of good info for the class.

Thank you for posting this though.  I hadn't thought to use UA's class feature swaps to get Swift Hunter for something besides Scout/Ranger.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 05:01:41 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Thank you for posting this though.  I hadn't thought to use UA's class feature swaps to get Swift Hunter for something besides Scout/Ranger.
Because you can't.

They are class variants. It's like saying a Wizard can pick up the Dragonblooded Sorcerer AFC because he can cast Arcane Spells or something. You cannot be a Druid using Barbarian AFCs.

Offline RedWarlock

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It's UA's more fluid segments, you're already into the zone of DM-allowance based on edge cases.

Incidentally, I did this with a half-ogre druid/scout, and I had a blast. Definitely a character type I'd try again in a future campaign (assuming I can ever get out of the DM's chair..)
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Thank you for posting this though.  I hadn't thought to use UA's class feature swaps to get Swift Hunter for something besides Scout/Ranger.
Because you can't.

They are class variants. It's like saying a Wizard can pick up the Dragonblooded Sorcerer AFC because he can cast Arcane Spells or something. You cannot be a Druid using Barbarian AFCs.

Arcane spells are a whole different thing than trading a barbarian's rage for favored enemy and then taking Swift Hunter.  It does work as per the feat prerequisites, although it technically doesn't progress RAW since it does only specify ranger and scout.  Dragonblooded Sorcerer requires being a sorcerer, so of course a wizard can't take it.

Not getting into Swift Hunter through a barbarian ACF is one of the things I like to call a RAWtard argument.

Offline Dkonen

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However, you actually *can't* swap druidic avenger for a barbarian ACF, not because it's a druid, but because the avenger only gets rage and tireless rage and you need greater rage, indomitable will and mighty rage to qualify. You're missing three class features.

Edit: unless I'm missing something that allows to use ACF swap packages per item. From my knowledge you have to actually have access to the class features to swap them out as per an entire package, barring DM alterations. Not at the time of taking them-but as an eventual class progression (obviously)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 07:11:21 PM by Dkonen »
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Offline Volfogg

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Quote from: Jackinthegreen
I assume Swift Avenger is a rework of Swift Hunter?  It doesn't work in this case.  The druid variant to get favored enemy loses out on all forms of wild shape, which precludes you from taking Aspect of Nature unless a DM says otherwise.  So far this looks more like a theoretical build, so no DM fiat means it won't work.
Actually it's a feat from Dragon Magazine 357. Basically lets you stack scout and druid for skirmish and wild shaping.

Thanks for all the feedback and insight folks! Much appreciated. Looks like I did overlook the fact that you need all the requisite rage related powers in order to swap it for ferocity. So, that's a no go, however. My DM is lenient enough to allow aspect of nature to function with the swift avenger feat. :) That's still a huge boost to dexterity when needed. In order to get ferocity I could instead do this:

barbarian 1(ferocity)/scout 2/druid 17

This would net a +12 to dexterity from aspect of nature (agility) and ferocity. The only issue with this is that I would have to take extra rage. This would result in having to be a human with a flaw. Not quite what I wanted but I believe it would still be fun to play.

Again, thanks for all the help folks!!

Cheers
Volf

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Take a look at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/MagicItems.pdf.  For 6k, Mantle of Rage is an extra rage a day.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Arcane spells are a whole different thing than trading a barbarian's rage for favored enemy and then taking Swift Hunter.
I'm going to stop you right there and let that sink in some, kthx.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Arcane spells are a whole different thing than trading a barbarian's rage for favored enemy and then taking Swift Hunter.
I'm going to stop you right there and let that sink in some, kthx.

From the looks of it, you're getting caught up about me saying to use a barbarian for this, which is understandable given that I posted in a scout/druid thread.  I meant exactly what I said with barbarian because a barbarian can directly give up rage for favored enemy as per the SRD.  And even then it doesn't work by RAW because, while the barbarian can qualify for Swift Hunter because he does have favored enemy, the benefits portion specifically lists scout and ranger.  I did not mean it would work for a druid using its own ACF to gain rage, then the barbarian's ACF to gain favored enemy, because chaining those ACFs is not really supported within the rules.

It is possible to argue that because the ACF says "as ranger" for favored enemy that the character should be treated as a ranger for all intents and purposes related to favored enemy, but since the rules don't explicitly say the character should be treated as such beyond that, nor is it implied strongly enough to pass strict scrutiny, the argument for the ACF won't really go anywhere and thus there's really no point in taking the feat even if the character technically qualifies.  Personally, I'd say a DM should allow it because it's a rather minor change for some good flavor that won't break the game, but one's mileage may vary.

I simply meant there was a possibility a DM could allow barbarian with that ACF in place of ranger for that purpose, not that it fully worked by RAW.  There was no need to insult me over it.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 12:48:51 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Arcane spells are a whole different thing than trading a barbarian's rage for favored enemy and then taking Swift Hunter.
I'm going to stop you right there and let that sink in some, kthx.
I meant exactly what I said with barbarian because a barbarian can directly give up rage for favored enemy ... while the barbarian can qualify for Swift Hunter.
I see where you're coming from and agree that if you sub out Rage for Favored Enemy you can take Feats and such, however it's apples and oranges to what I am talking about.

The Druid cannot give up his AFC granted Rage for the Barbarian's AFC granted Favored Enemy. Which is exactly what the OP is doing (but has DM approval now).

This is exactly what I said before
Thank you for posting this though.  I hadn't thought to use UA's class feature swaps to get Swift Hunter for something besides Scout/Ranger.
Because you can't.

They are class variants. It's like saying a Wizard can pick up the Dragonblooded Sorcerer AFC because he can cast Arcane Spells or something. You cannot be a Druid using Barbarian AFCs.
Both the example and red text are very much talking about one class using another's AFC. But some where along the line, wires got crossed and you're thinking I'm talking about Feats and such and I thought you were trying to say the Druid can pick up FE.

Edit - Well minor correction, the Druid can pick up FE via simple variant, just not by trading Wild Shape for Rage, then claiming he is a Barbarian and use the Barb's AFCs to pick up FE.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 02:16:41 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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I see where you're coming from and agree that if you sub out Rage for Favored Enemy you can take Feats and such, however it's apples and oranges to what I am talking about.

The Druid cannot give up his AFC granted Rage for the Barbarian's AFC granted Favored Enemy. Which is exactly what the OP is doing (but has DM approval now).

This is exactly what I said before

And I made mention of that by saying

From the looks of it... ranger.  I did not mean it would work for a druid using its own ACF to gain rage, then the barbarian's ACF to gain favored enemy, because chaining those ACFs is not really supported within the rules.

I agree, it doesn't work.

And to me, it didn't look like the OP was trading the druid's rage variant for favored enemy because the build kept rage, although turned it into Ferocity instead.  Which is still ACF chaining but is somewhat plausible.  The way he was trying to get favored enemy was the variant to drop wild shape, but since Aspect of Nature is a form of Wild Shape, I mentioned gaining FE and the Aspect stuff isn't supported by the rules.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 04:15:44 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline SorO_Lost

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So what the hell are you arguing? Drink your beer until the fat women looks hot and go hit on her.