PHB Only Druid

[kurashu]

I'm on my lunch break thinking of simple—ish 20th level characters. I'm feeling a PHB only Druid as the concept. PHB only does remove Improved Natural Attack and Multiattack and Fly-by Attack, but whatevs.

Human Monk 1/Druid 5/Monk +1/Druid +13

BAB: +14 Fort: +14 Reflex: +9 Will: +14

Feats
1: Imp. Init.
H: Power Attack
M1: IUS, Imp. Grapple
3: Extend Spell
6: Natural Spell
M2: Combat Reflexes
9: Quicken Spell
12: Cleave
15: Greater Cleave
18: WF(Claw)

The last three because why not?

Any improvements that can be made? How does TWF interact with Natural Weapons? Can I power attack a bite (at what rate)?

This is mostly am exercise in whatever, but I may show it to my players as what a high level druid is truly capable of.

[Ithamar]

Once you multiclass out of monk, you cannot re-enter (using only PHB).  So you may need to take both monk levels right away, or just stick with 1 level.

Yes, you can power attack with any natural weapon, and it is always a 1 to 1 return (using only PHB).

Instead of Cleave + Greater Cleave, why not Special Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning?

[Halinn]

You're not gaining anything really significant with the second level of monk, while the extra level of druid raises the Wild Shape HD cap and provides another 9th level spell slot (note: I haven't checked if 19 HD is better than 18 in a core-only environment). If it's a character intended for play from a lower level, less delay on new spell levels is also quite valuable.

[kurashu]

Damn, I forgot about how silly monks are. Monk 1/Druid 19 then so Natural Spell isn't delayed. No Augment Summonning because I forgot.

Combat Reflexes is so nice with a high Dex Wildshape.

SF(Conj.) + Augment Summoning + Combat Reflexes instead of the last three.

This character is more thought exercise than playable character. But if I get one of my players to DM, it'll likely be core only and I'll likely trot this (literal) pony out.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Waayyy back in the day, there were
arguments about taking the Monk 1
at 2nd level or 4th level.  I've said
6th level a few times.  Gotta agree
about no Monk 2 unless someone
posts some really good numbers.
Monk 2 is OK in non-core, especially
with Ardent ; and Tashalatora ; and cheese ... 

I still want Craft Wondrous Item,
but not if someone else in the party
already has it ... like the Wizard.

Animal Companion and Summon
are quite a bit tighter in core.
Anybody have a preferred list ??

[Halinn]

To be fair, if one is playing at level 19 or 20, and not going into epic, druid 17-18/Monk 2 isn't bad. It's just that it's a very big if.

[Genuine]

Even at lower levels, I don't think I'd call a monk2/druid build bad. Its still better than a straight fighter, paladin, or monk. Its just not as good as a pure druid build would have been.

If the rest of your party is a bit wonky and your DM isn't a killer or a hardline CR adherent then you would probably be ok.

[gamer]

I'm on my lunch break thinking of simple—ish 20th level characters. I'm feeling a PHB only Druid as the concept. PHB only does remove Improved Natural Attack and Multiattack and Fly-by Attack, but whatevs.



Feats
1: Imp. Init.
H: Power Attack
M1: IUS, Imp. Grapple
3: Extend Spell
6: Natural Spell
M2: Combat Reflexes
9: Quicken Spell
12: Cleave
15: Greater Cleave
18: WF(Claw)

Is Natural Spell really in the PHB??

[Agita]

I'm on my lunch break thinking of simple—ish 20th level characters. I'm feeling a PHB only Druid as the concept. PHB only does remove Improved Natural Attack and Multiattack and Fly-by Attack, but whatevs.



Feats
1: Imp. Init.
H: Power Attack
M1: IUS, Imp. Grapple
3: Extend Spell
6: Natural Spell
M2: Combat Reflexes
9: Quicken Spell
12: Cleave
15: Greater Cleave
18: WF(Claw)

Is Natural Spell really in the PHB??

Yes; on page 98.

[kurashu]

Natural Spell is why the Druid is better than the cleric or wizard in a core only environment. They all get 9th level spells, but the druid gets the fighter as a class feature, the ability to turn into an animal that's better than the fighter and then cast spells as said animals. Clerics and Wizards can, too, through spells, but the druid's been doing that since level 5 at 1 hr/level where as Polymorph is a 4th level spell? So, they wait until 7th level? Eh. My memory fails at the moment.

[Halinn]

The wizard gets higher quality spells than the druid, though. The cleric is the worst of the three full casters in core, although that doesn't say much.

[kurashu]

That much is true. But unless the druid is going mano-a-mano with a wizard, I think it's "wave a hand and destroy enemies" gets the job done, just in more style than the wizard because it's an elemental that's surrounded by other bigger elementals and a bear (who's probably on fire or something for good measure).

Just because the Wizard stopped time and gated in two great wyrm gold dragons and surrounded the druid with a prismatic wall wrapped instead of a wall of stone shaped into a sphere doesn't mean anything.

[phaedrusxy]

The wizard gets higher quality spells than the druid, though. The cleric is the worst of the three full casters in core, although that doesn't say much.

I disagree if you can be a neutral or evil cleric who animates/rebukes to gain an army of undead. They can hang, then. Let's break it down for low, mid, and high levels:

Low: Cleric gets heavy armor and shields, d8 hit dice, and can get some nifty spells like Invisibility from his domains. His base spells are decent, but not flashy. However, he can cast any of them he feels like without having to shell out a ton of cash. And if he's lucky for the DM to throw undead at him, he can claim them as his own. The druid is still ahead due to his animal companion. Wizard is about even with the cleric.

Mid: At level 5, the cleric gets Animate Dead, and walk around with his own personal army of Desecrated undead. The druid gets Wildshape, but he's not super awesome in combat yet. I think this is the range where the cleric pulls ahead a bit, at least for a while. At 7th, the wizard also gets Animate Dead, and Evard's Black Tentacles + Solid Fog. So I think he wins at that point.

High: The cleric can access most of the broken spells that the wizard can (via domains and/or Miracle), and all 3 (can) get Shapechange. So they're all off the charts crazy.

[Halinn]

I'm not saying that the cleric isn't crazy-good. I'm just saying that the wizard and druid are slightly better. I'll grant that the cleric might be ahead at level 5-6, but once level 7 hits, the wizard is back on top, and the druid gets large sized wild shape at level 8, putting him in a good position.

[darqueseid]

I'd agree with Phaed's assessment, but I'd quibble that the high level casters are differently aligned.

the core Wizard only beats clerics because Timestop and Shapechange are core wizard spells that he can use a few times/day, and the core cleric has to use two specific domains to get them both. (and only one domain spell per day right?).   The druid comes in 3rd at high levels, but not by much, just because he can't get Timestop and his core spell list is rather meh, and the fact that he has a cohort and himself with good melee stats is largely unimportant at this level..

If your out of core I'd say its:
clerics/wizards/druids, and its a much smaller gap between them, they are almost equal

[oslecamo]

As for superior spell quality, wizard and cleric both get gate, druid doesn't (not to mention planar ally and planar binding earlier on).

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm playing in a high level core only game.  Druid is better for many levels, but as I was coming in at level 17, I looked at druid first and found... wildshape sucks end-game.  By that I mean, why wildshape when a transmuter wizard can spend 9 hours (18 if you have greater extend rod) shapechanged?  It's just so stupidly ridiculously better, and (if using errata) no dealing with that bs "everything melds" crap, either.

Now...I know what you're going to say... "But, druids get shapechange, too!"  Yes, they get a gimped version.  Why?  How do most DMs handle what creatures you "know" or "have seen" in a game you're just inserting your PC into now, without the year+ of in-game experiences at high level PC would typically have?  That's right!  Knowledge checks!  Let's see, what knowledges for IDing monsters do druids get?  Oh, that's right...Nature.  In other words...almost all the crap you can wildshape into anyway and none of the FUN stuff (outsiders, undead/ethereal, constructs, etc...).
Oh, let's look at wizard.  He gets all knowledges!  And has every reason imaginable to have a sky-high int!

So...yeah.  My rebuttal is that at higher levels in core only, shapechange makes wildshape practically irrelevant and druid becomes much weaker compared to wizard (or sorc, who benefits from having a high charisma for save DC-based Su stuff and has a better set of knowledge class skills than druid, too).  Main advantage it retains is it can't be dispelled, that's about it.

[phaedrusxy]

I'm playing in a high level core only game.  Druid is better for many levels, but as I was coming in at level 17, I looked at druid first and found... wildshape sucks end-game.  By that I mean, why wildshape when a transmuter wizard can spend 9 hours (18 if you have greater extend rod) shapechanged?  It's just so stupidly ridiculously better, and (if using errata) no dealing with that bs "everything melds" crap, either.

Now...I know what you're going to say... "But, druids get shapechange, too!"  Yes, they get a gimped version.  Why?  How do most DMs handle what creatures you "know" or "have seen" in a game you're just inserting your PC into now, without the year+ of in-game experiences at high level PC would typically have?  That's right!  Knowledge checks!  Let's see, what knowledges for IDing monsters do druids get?  Oh, that's right...Nature.  In other words...almost all the crap you can wildshape into anyway and none of the FUN stuff (outsiders, undead/ethereal, constructs, etc...).
Oh, let's look at wizard.  He gets all knowledges!  And has every reason imaginable to have a sky-high int!

So...yeah.  My rebuttal is that at higher levels in core only, shapechange makes wildshape practically irrelevant and druid becomes much weaker compared to wizard (or sorc, who benefits from having a high charisma for save DC-based Su stuff and has a better set of knowledge class skills than druid, too).  Main advantage it retains is it can't be dispelled, that's about it.

The AC also has quite a steep decline in relative power throughout all the levels, too. It is at its peak at 1st, and drops steadily to 20th.