Pathfinder optimisation

[radionausea]

Are there any forums where active discussion of optimisation in pathfinder goes on? 

The paizo website is full of people who have no clue whatsoever, the giantitp forums are...well, full of people who think they do but one look at the handbooks over there and its clear they don't, enworld seems quite hostile towards optimisation in general and here, where most people seem to care about it not many people seem interested in pf (the exception being streamofthesky really but they're not the biggest fan!).

Is there anywhere else?

[veekie]

SomethingAwful's Pathfinder thread has some. Most 3.5 tricks still apply, multiclassing and PrCs are bad, and spellcasting rocks.


But I'm kinda 30% of the PF optimization talk there by myself.

[Halinn]

Beyond the general things veekie mentioned, there aren't that many things to meaningfully optimize with. A few traits for metamagics (Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage), the Ghetto Archivist (Razmiran Priest, a Sorcerer archetype) and a few things mentioned in the "Interesting stuff in Pathfinder" thread and you're pretty much at the limit of what isn't immediately obvious from a read of the core book.
If there's any specific concept or character you want more tricks or advice for, there are enough PF-knowledgeable folk here to give that.

[altpersona]

imo pathfinder is far less abusable than 3.x.

unless your import the numerous 3.x splat books, then its just as wonky as anything else.

if you have any specific ideas or what not, ask / post it...

[Halinn]

imo pathfinder is far less abusable than 3.x.

For one thing, they haven't fixed the Candle of Invocation. At least one of their published adventure paths include them as loot , too (Serpent's Skull, book 5. 3x CE candles, perfect for a few Glabrezu).

[Prime32]

Part of it is to do with the poor treatment Paizo gave to anyone pointing out mechanical faults in the playtest, a group that overlaps with handbook writers.

Another part is how often Paizo changes the rules, or writes abilities so that they don't work by RAW then says to apply common sense, or bans things based on fluff. (the breath weapons of PC half-dragons don't scale by level, because the designers said that the fluff of PCs having breath weapons is dumb and munchkiny; you cannot draw more than one alchemical item per round regardless of how fast you can normally draw items, because thieves don't fight by throwing things; Pounce only works with natural weapons because attacking that fast is unrealistic; only magical fear effects stack, because scaring someone twice makes no sense)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Class imbalance is worse in PF.  Martials can't have nice things and casters get all sorts of new toys.

Ways to utterly destroy the campaign or create infinite loops are definitely down, though.

See, I'm used to playing with people rational to ban or choose not to play pun pun, but also too lazy to houserule the shit out of D&D enough to balance out the classes.  So for me, PF is worse than 3E for balance.

[Mithril Leaf]

You seem to be allowing your preexisting prejudices cloud you. Looks more then skin deep and you'll see various valid pathfinder optimization options on the sites you mentioned.

[Halinn]

You seem to be allowing your preexisting prejudices cloud you. Looks more then skin deep and you'll see various valid pathfinder optimization options on the sites you mentioned.

Honestly, you have to dig fairly deep. And at least the Paizo forums are decidedly hostile against optimizers.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You seem to be allowing your preexisting prejudices cloud you. Looks more then skin deep and you'll see various valid pathfinder optimization options on the sites you mentioned.

Honestly, you have to dig fairly deep. And at least the Paizo forums are decidedly hostile against optimizers.

Yup.  And there are some good optimizers and handbooks on the paizo forums.  It's just mired in with a lot of people who suck at optimizing, don't know how the game actually works, or as Hanlinn said, are actively hostile to optimizing, and feel the need to chime in.  I still recall the guy who did the zen archer monk handbook (a different one than mine), and posters there actually harranguing him for not presenting an option that has charisma 10 or higher. 

[veekie]

You seem to be allowing your preexisting prejudices cloud you. Looks more then skin deep and you'll see various valid pathfinder optimization options on the sites you mentioned.

Honestly, you have to dig fairly deep. And at least the Paizo forums are decidedly hostile against optimizers.

Yup.  And there are some good optimizers and handbooks on the paizo forums.  It's just mired in with a lot of people who suck at optimizing, don't know how the game actually works, or as Hanlinn said, are actively hostile to optimizing, and feel the need to chime in.  I still recall the guy who did the zen archer monk handbook (a different one than mine), and posters there actually harranguing him for not presenting an option that has charisma 10 or higher. 

Yeah, you're better off asking in minmax here. SotS is usually around, and I sometimes check in.

Mostly the system is pretty easy. Your first impression is very likely the right one for any particular mechanic if you're from a CO background...barring countermanding by the developers on their pet issues(goddamit SKR).

[radionausea]

I'm pretty sound on my PF knowledge I was just curious as to whether there were any forums that pathfinder was the main area of discussion that also discussed optimisation quite a lot.  My group plays PF almost exclusively these days, certainly no 3.5 in use, so I just wanted to know if there was anywhere that kept up to date with new combinations etc.

Veekie, by the somethingawful thread do you mean: "Pathfinder RPG: On the 3.75th Day It Rose Again"? 

And mithrilleaf, I really don't have 'pre-existing prejudices' against those forums.  I've looked pretty hard at them and, yes, there are some gems hidden in there but it's buried deep.  The Paizo forums in particular are just terrible (content and layout).

[radionausea]

+1,000000 to complaints about SKR

[veekie]

Veekie, by the somethingawful thread do you mean: "Pathfinder RPG: On the 3.75th Day It Rose Again"? 

Yep, its activity is on and off though, and mixed with plenty of idle discussion, idea tossing, etc, in between bits of SKR bashing

I've looked pretty hard at them and, yes, there are some gems hidden in there but it's buried deep.  The Paizo forums in particular are just terrible (content and layout).

Well, I don't care much about the layout, but the overall tone is the common one, most of them have only the barest understanding of system mechanic implications, and they don't really think knowing more is useful.

[Halinn]

As for up to date stuff, there is some interesting stuff in the Advanced Race Guide:

Wild Caller - Summoner Archetype (Half-elf only). Gets another 1/4th class level evolution points, on top of the half-elf favored class bonus. Also trades Summon Monster for Summon Nature's Ally
Scarred Witch Doctor - Witch Archetype (Orc only). Uses Con as casting stat instead of Int
New Favored Class bonus options, including ones that give the oracle extra spells on races that aren't humans.
A nice, breakable race builder. For instance, the Greater Paragon option for racial stat modifiers gives +4 any stat, -2 one physical stat, -2 one mental stat. This costs 2 Racial Points (out of 10 for a standard power level). And then add a flexible bonus feat for 4 RP and a static bonus feat for 2 RP, and you still have points for something like a climb speed or darkvision

[radionausea]

I'm glad they made Wild Caller because the Third Worlder archetype was just sucktastic.  This version is half decent.
Hadn't noticed the Scarred Witch Doctor, there has to be something that can be done with that; maybe when Paths of Prestige comes out...

The race builder is just stupid, I've been playing with it in Hero Lab and you can just do some really absurd things.

[brislove]

I'm glad they made Wild Caller because the Third Worlder archetype was just sucktastic.  This version is half decent.
Hadn't noticed the Scarred Witch Doctor, there has to be something that can be done with that; maybe when Paths of Prestige comes out...

The race builder is just stupid, I've been playing with it in Hero Lab and you can just do some really absurd things.

They have it in herolab already! This is wonderous news. Much easier to play around with things in there haha Just add everything...and cut down to 10

[altpersona]

while they didnt elevate melee guys to caster level, i thought they bumped them up kinda a lot. at least for barbarian.

for casters, yes the gloves are off when using unconverted or self converted 3x splatbooks.

but their srd is pretty harsh on casters. or did i overlook the CL bonuses and unlimited damage dice?

(i see the candle of invocation,but thats just one item. its not an entire class/game fix)

[radionausea]

You choose your race point level (Standard, Advanced, Monstrous) and it deducts from your total as you go, easy!

I see that 'Sneaky Rider' is 6(!) race points though.  Wasn't it 4 in the playtest and too high at that.

[veekie]

but their srd is pretty harsh on casters. or did i overlook the CL bonuses and unlimited damage dice?

(i see the candle of invocation,but thats just one item. its not an entire class/game fix)

Overall, its a relative thing. Everything did become less optimizable, including casters(they mostly got a fistful of filler class features really). Spells are overall much inferior compared to 3.5 options, particularly with the Polymorph changes(though I think they should be Touch spells so you can put them on others), and outright missing options. So while there is caster favoritism, casters got still weaker with everything else.