Iterative probability and multi layer defenses discussion.

[Solo]

Alright, if no one minds I'm going to make my own guide to IP proofing, the posting of which shall be left to my minion Littha.

[littha]

Iterative probability and multi layer defenses

Guide is still very much a work in progress and I would greatly appreciate any help people can provide on locating feats/items for this stuff.

Other than that hopefully we can have an IP handbook written by someone unlikley to ragequit and take his toys with him.

[Solo]

Steadfast Determination (PHB2): Con mod to will saves instead of Wis mod, a natural 1 on a fortitude save is no longer an automatic failure.

ToB manuvers that replace saves with Concentration checks.

[littha]

Yea, I haven't even finished putting all the categories in the thread yet lol. Its going to have AC, Saves, Displacement/Miss chance and suff eventually.

[veekie]

Err, dammit, putting that rogue post here switched the first post.

[littha]

Err, dammit, putting that rogue post here switched the first post.

[veekie]

Well if Solo doesn't mind I can nuke it.

[DavidWL]

Part of the reason immunities are so good.

Undead Immunities - whole slew!
* There is somewhere an item that can only be used by elves that gives undead immunities. 
* 8th level spell:  Viel of Undeath (or some such)
* Necropolitan (only costs ~3K exp)!

Similarly freedom of movement, mind blank, death ward, ilmatar's blessing (?), Foresight, etc.  While this shouldn't be the focus of the guide, it probably does deserve a section.

There are also a ton of spells (Ruin Delver's fortune, one of the ones in the Destiny Domain, Wings of Cover, etc.)

Best,
David

[littha]

Agreed, it will have its own section at some point but I already have a whole lot to finish lol.

[Jackinthegreen]

Obviously one of the best recommendations for the saves category is Steadfast Determination.  No more automatic failures on a 1!  And there's the Knight's 17'th level ability called Impetuous Endurance, but who takes Knight to 17?

I assume you'll go over evasion and mettle too, yes?  To save you the trouble of which 3.5 classes get mettle, here's a list of at least most of them, perhaps all of them:
Pious Templar (CD 50) 1st level
Hexblade (CW 5) 3rd level
Crusader (ToB 8) 13th level
Vigilante (CAd 85) 9th level
Witch Slayer (ToM 67) 2nd level
Goliath Rogue substitution level(RoS 152): 2nd, mettle on Fort save only, replaces evasion

Tabard of Valor (CCh 142) Item, 16,000 Grants Mettle when at or lower than half hit points, or Improved Mettle if the character already has mettle from a class or other effect.

[littha]

Thanks, and yea I will go over these eventually but this is going to be an absolutely epic long handbook so I might not get around to filling out the sections completely any time soon.

Steadfast Determination is already in the rerolls section but I am going to move it.

[Zionpopsickle]

I think an important caveat for the AC section is that AC's interaction with other defenses can be extremely complex dependent upon the type of enemy encountered.  For example, say you have a large amount of DR then the importance of AC is very different depending on whether the enemy is using power-attack to generate their damage or if they are using high accuracy multiattack.  In the PA situation, high AC is useful since it lowers the PA amount and thus lowers damage.  Against the multiattack skirmishers AC is not useful since the damage is generated via multiple attacks and thus the DR covers the damage reduction.  However, the opposite is true if you use miss chances instead of DR since the skirmishers will still get multiple hits while the Power-attacker is reliant on low numbers of attacks.

This complex interaction is a big thing that makes it hard for lower skill players to properly assess their own defenses.

[veekie]

Against the multiattack skirmishers AC is not useful since the damage is generated via multiple attacks and thus the DR covers the damage reduction.

Not quite as true. Against multiple attacks, the incremental misses resulting from AC, even if you can't stop the whole salvo, makes AC more valuable to invest in. The iconic and most extreme case being the hydra, where having an AC of anything above "hit on a 2" would decrease per round damage.

[Zionpopsickle]

Against the multiattack skirmishers AC is not useful since the damage is generated via multiple attacks and thus the DR covers the damage reduction.

Not quite as true. Against multiple attacks, the incremental misses resulting from AC, even if you can't stop the whole salvo, makes AC more valuable to invest in. The iconic and most extreme case being the hydra, where having an AC of anything above "hit on a 2" would decrease per round damage.

Well yah, there are also low accuracy skirmishers, high accuracy precision damage users, and so many other ways to be effective at melee combat that weighing any individual defense mechanism can be very difficult.  And balancing it out against the campaign itself is a challenge that many new charopers can have trouble balancing.

[Jackinthegreen]

Another one to add to the Mettle section: Iron Mind, PrC from RoS 114.  5th level gets Mettle of Will and only while wearing heavy armor.

[PsyBomb]

Master Specialist (Abjurer) at 7 negates all partial saves, I think.