Rule question: Falling earth elementals

[101210]

while reading the summonable monsters stats, I've seen that the earth elementals have very high weight.
For exemple, the Huge earth elemental have a weight of 48,000 lbs (!) (summonable with SM VII)

So if you summon one 20 ft above your ennemy, you get 241d6 damages, no save? Or am I missing something?

[littha]

I believe you have to summon on a surface capable of supporting the creature. Will get back to you on that.

[101210]

From the SRD: " It appears where you designate and acts immediately,[...]" So you don't need a surface.

Otherwise, if you are in an aerial fight, how do you summon?

[kitep]

It does have to be on a solid surface that can support it.

Also from the SRD

Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

[veekie]

Though for fliers you can argue that the air itself is a surface that can support them.

[101210]

Thanks kitep, exactly what I was looking for!

[kurashu]

I'm sure there's some way of abusing this, though.

[sirpercival]

Sure.  Just summon them onto something that can support them and is temporary.  Like a Wall of Force.  Then dismiss it.

[Bauglir]

Summon a colossal flyer and order it to stop flying?

[Chrononaut]

Conjure a 10' by 10' cube of osmium and have the hulking hurler chuck it at something.

[101210]

Or just polymorph your flying air elemental into an earth elemental. Or teleport it 20 ft above your ennemy.
There is a couple ways to do lots of damage with this, but its too bad you cant do it with just ONE spell

EDIT: I think the best tactic would be to summon a bunch, then use dimensinal step on every of them, to put them at least 20 ft above your ennemies (they have a 30 ft base speed)
Or dimensional hop. Or any of these.

[phaedrusxy]

Isn't there a way to infuse a summoned creature with a "buff" type of spell as you summon it? If so, give them a flight speed somehow as you summon them (via Swift Flight, etc), and then command them to fly up and drop onto your enemy. It still costs multiple spells, but at least it doesn't cost multiple actions on your part, and it can fit into a generic "summoner" type of build.

Of course, if you're a high level druid, all you need to do is fly above them as a bird, then Wildshape into an earth elemental.

[Wiggins]

Or just polymorph your flying air elemental into an earth elemental. Or teleport it 20 ft above your ennemy.
There is a couple ways to do lots of damage with this, but its too bad you cant do it with just ONE spell

EDIT: I think the best tactic would be to summon a bunch, then use dimensinal step on every of them, to put them at least 20 ft above your ennemies (they have a 30 ft base speed)
Or dimensional hop. Or any of these.

Teleportation is conjuration too, and so the target destination has to be somewhere that can support them, same as summoning, unless the spell says otherwise

[Daedroth]

while reading the summonable monsters stats, I've seen that the earth elementals have very high weight.
For exemple, the Huge earth elemental have a weight of 48,000 lbs (!) (summonable with SM VII)

So if you summon one 20 ft above your ennemy, you get 241d6 damages, no save? Or am I missing something?

My DMG  says that damage has a limit of 20d6.


And SRd too:

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

[ariasderros]

while reading the summonable monsters stats, I've seen that the earth elementals have very high weight.
For exemple, the Huge earth elemental have a weight of 48,000 lbs (!) (summonable with SM VII)

So if you summon one 20 ft above your ennemy, you get 241d6 damages, no save? Or am I missing something?

My DMG  says that damage has a limit of 20d6.


And SRd too:

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Correction:

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

The damage from the distance caps at 20d6. The damage from the weight is uncapped.

[Unbeliever]

I always read it as capped at 20d6 period.  But, I could see how I'd be wrong.  That being said, multiple Earth Elementals summoned for 20d6 damage each is still pretty good. 

I think it'd just be easier to summon a bunch of colossal fliers, though.  As a side note, I think it'd be very reasonable to allow a Relfex save for half, probably against the DC of the spell b/c it's the mage who is "targeting" the fall.  Alternately, it could be an attack roll by the summoned creature. 

[phaedrusxy]

Just following the normal rules for English grammar, it is clear that the cap only applies to the damage from distance, not the total damage. The text in parenthesis is part of the second sentence, not the first. Now... of course this is much more abuseable, but that's a totally different argument. This falling damage is the entire basis of the infamous Hulking Hurler build, and this discussion about interpretation of the falling damage rules was hashed out way back then.

There does need to be some kind of attack roll or reflex save, I agree. I'm not sure which is more appropriate given the rules, though. Maybe a Reflex save with a DC equal to what a spell of equal level as that used to summon the creature would have.

[ariasderros]

Heroes of Battle Page 67-68 gives the rules for Aerial Bombardments (i.e. killing things by dropping things).

And those rules grant a DC 15 reflex save to negate.

Which I always house rule a +/-2 to the save DC per size category difference of the object (since it would be harder to get out of the way of big things than small things).

That ended up with a colossal object giving a medium human a DC 23 reflex save to negate a lot of damage. Wail of the Banshee cast from an item grants a DC 23 fort save to negate instant death.

Seems fair to me, but YMMV.