Breaking the Ruby Knight Vindicator

[linklord231]

Grab Battle Blessing at level 6, this lets you cast all your Paladin spells (which are all of them, since you're a Prestige Paladin) as swift actions,

No.

Prestige Paladin adds +1 to existing class. That's advancing Cleric spellcasting not granting Paladin spellcasting.
Likewise, you add the Paladin unique spells to your list of Cleric Spells, something that at the moment you attempt to claim is ambiguously meaning any damn spell you think, loses all context of use. For one thing, you wouldn't exactly have "Cleric Spells" at that point to add to thanks to your earlier assumption to ignore the terminology...

"Paladin Spells" is a defined term even if it lacks a flashing neon sign the size of the sun for you. This is seriously a basic concept as well, like since you missed chapter 10 or 11 of the PHB you could read the numerous examples in the FAQ that in several ways specifically addresses this. You know, in case you're [sic] next post in a gish thread was going to be a suggestion about dipping Cleric to ignore ASF with your Sorcerer Spells.

If Prestige Paladin is on the table, then there is no such thing as normal Paladin spellcasting.  The two are mutually exclusive.  If you are a Prestige Paladin, you are a Paladin.  Every spell you know is a Paladin spell, because you know it.  If you take Prestige Paladin, there is no such thing as the "Paladin spell list," only the unique spells that a base-class Paladin would normally have exclusive access to.

Your argument is based on the idea that there are "paladin spells" in a world with Prestige Paladins.  There aren't.  Every Prestige Paladin used to be a Cleric or Favored Soul or some other divine caster.  And due to the rule regarding spells unique to certain classes, advancing Cleric spellcasting is granting Paladin spellcasting.  They are one and the same. 
Besides, if you had read my other posts, you would have noticed that I specifically noted that people should talk to their DMs in this kind of situation, because there are multiple ways to adjucate this.  I'll concede that "paladin spells" means "spells from the Paladin list" with regard to campaigns in which Paladin is a base class, because in that situation we're discussing here, that is not the case because there is no Paladin spell list.  There are unique spells that, in a normal campaign, only a base-class Paladin would have access to, but PrC Pally changes that. 

As implied before, Chapters 10 and 11 of the PHB do not apply when there's no such thing as a (non-PrC) Paladin.  I ctrl+F's through the FAQ for instances of 'paladin', and found nothing regarding their spell list.  So if any of these "numerous examples" actually exist, please cite them. 

[ClayQ]

I hate prestiege paladin debate with a passion, so I offer you two alternative builds.

The speed caster:
Illumian (krau....)
Dread Necro 1/Archivist 1/Crusader 1/Geomancer 2/RKV 7/Geomancer +2 /Paladin of? 1/Geomancer +3/Dragon Disciple 2
Improved Sigil Krau @ 1, Battle blessing at 15, apply all caster levels and spell slots to archivist.
-9th level divine
-Potentially any spell in the game via leadership
-6th and lower spells as swift actions (trade 1 9th level spell for swift 7th level trade level 20 for geomancer)
-pounce if desired
-5 open feats. (4 with leadership)
con: cant use your +0 template

The pouncer.... Nvm, only 1 build for now was trying to work shadow pounce in but gave up too many spell levels. Got any more specific on what you want to do? Above should be playable at any level easily.
And the potentially any spell works for any archivist, get a cihort that is a geomancer with scribe scroll, then have them scribe a divine scroll of whatever you wanted.

ie: favored soul 1 (versitile spell)/arcane caster 2-3/geomancer x

Want a wu jen spell? Make the arcane a wujen, wizard sure, something else? No problem...

[SorO_Lost]

Besides, if you had read my other posts, you would have noticed that I specifically noted that people should talk to their DMs in this kind of situation, because there are multiple ways to adjucate this.

I didn't read the rest of your post(s) due to your demonstration of rules knowledge being sub-par at best.

As implied before, Chapters 10 and 11 of the PHB do not apply when there's no such thing as a (non-PrC) Paladin.  I ctrl+F's through the FAQ for instances of 'paladin', and found nothing regarding their spell list.  So if any of these "numerous examples" actually exist, please cite them.

And that explains why. You don't read the rules, you skim them looking for exactly what you want.

For example, "wizard spell"'s first hit is a FAQ entry explaining a Durid/Wizard cannot spontaneous cast a SNA using his Wizard spell slots despite there being "no exact rules preventing this". Naivety plays a huge part in spellcasting so while a Cleric can sac any spell slot for a Cure spell, this ability is solely part of clerical spellcasting and does not overlap with other spells or spellcasting abilities. Like as I mentioned with gishes and Arcane Spell Failure, having a level in Cleric doesn't override how your Sorcerer Spells work. Even for instance, Quickening Grease as a Wizard doesn't penalize you to a Full-Round action because Grease is a Sorcerer Spell. In all instances, you are casting X spell, where X is the class that granted the spellcasting ability in the first place.

A prime example in the FAQ is found on page 3, or where my scroll wheel took me before I thought to hit the Find keystroke.
A dragon that can cast cleric spells as arcane spells casts such spells as though they were part of the sorcerer class list. You quite literally have your half read no basis interpretation of "can cast X spells" in that entry that you're trying to say matters, but note that underlined section where like the Prestigious Paladin, it's flat out saying the spell set is added to your existing spellcasting.

In a second it says:
"If the example dragon adds a level of cleric, it would cast sorcerer spells as a 4th-level sorcerer (including any cleric spells it has added to its list of spells known) and would prepare and cast cleric spells and turn undead as a 1st-level cleric. When preparing cleric spells, it could choose any 1st level cleric spell, just as any other 1st-level cleric could.".
Despite functionally "casting 2nd level cleric spells" using it's sorcerer spells, it only truly has 1st level cleric spells which means if a requirement was 2nd level cleric spells, he doesn't meet them. Or, omg ownership matters yet again!

When Battle Blessing comes along and says your Paladin Spells have decreased casting time. It's not talking about your Cleric Spells, it's not talking about your Sorcerer Spells that can cast Cleric Spells. It's talking about Paladin Spellcasting. And you can find examples of the ownership traits in the descriptions of Classes in the base books, PrCs, etc, where it's so commonly implied or stated (such as multieclass rules/examples) and even direct answers in the FAQ leading to a failure to grasp this concept means you simply are not playing the game correctly or will have one hell of a house rule that declared a free for all, both penalizing some traits (can't quicken cure light wounds due to bard), empowering them (battle blessing off wand use), and generally mucking things up (psion/meldshaper mystic theurge anyone?)

[linklord231]

Spell "ownership" absolutely matters.  If a normal Cleric dipped (base class) Paladin and took Battle Blessing, it would only apply to spells prepared and cast out of his Paladin spell slots, even for things like Lesser Restoration that appear on both lists.

But in a game with the Prestige Paladin variant, there is no such thing as a normal Paladin.  That means there is also no such thing as normal Paladin spellcasting.  There is only Cleric casting that has been augmented by Prestige Paladin advancement to include spells that would, in a normal campaign, be exclusive to base-class Paladins. 

So there are 4 possible interpretations of the interaction between Prestige Paladin and Battle Blessing:
1.  Since you are a Paladin, all your spells are "paladin spells" and Battle Blessing works on all of them.
2.  Battle Blessing only applies to the spells listed on the Paladin spell list.  Since there's a significant overlap between the Cleric and Paladin spell lists, the feat is still worth taking.
3.  Battle Blessing only applies to the spells unique to the Paladin spell list, because those are the spells you gain access to by virtue of being a paladin.  Still might be worth taking, depending on how often you use Rhino's Rush and stuff.
4.  Battle Blessing only applies to spells cast out of your Paladin spell slots.  Unfortunately, no one in the entire campaign has any Paladin spell slots, so this feat is completely worthless and should not be taken by anyone ever.  This interpretation is patently absurd and cannot be what the designers intended.

[Cephei]

Just FYI my DM seems okay with the battle blessing feat so long as I'm not breaking the game and making him work too hard.  Thanks for the tips.

[darqueseid]

Link, Your logic is confusing me;

in effect, Your saying that the prestige paladin can treat all his spells as a paladin spells, because the prestige paladin PRC makes all cleric spells into paladin spells.

you cant use something to substantiate itself, its a circular argument.   I'm not saying that your right or wrong, but I'm saying that the above logic doesn't prove anything. 

[phaedrusxy]

Just FYI my DM seems okay with the battle blessing feat so long as I'm not breaking the game and making him work too hard.  Thanks for the tips.

If you're casting multiple spells per round as swift actions... you likely will be. 

[Cephei]

I told him I had a super saiyan mode if I had to use it.  I'll likely not even need to bust out that level of cheese to survive but I think if I have to it's okay.  I understand the argument like this.  If I were to take battle blessing I would apply it to my paladin spell casting.  But the PrC paladin doesn't get paladin spells

Spells per Day

A prestige paladin's training focuses on divine spellcasting. At every odd numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.

It says nothing about actually getting paladin spell casting so he actually doesn't really even have paladin spell casting or does he cast his known cleric spells through his paladin levels?  It's not necessarily clear.  I hear the arguments but RAW here isn't clear enough to make a judgment. 

[sirpercival]

Higher up on the same page (in the SRD):

Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

[linklord231]

Higher up on the same page (in the SRD):

Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

Right, but you still wouldn't have Paladin spells in the way SorO means it.  You'd just have be able to prepare and cast certain spells that normally are exclusive to the Paladin spell list out of your Cleric spell slots.

[Cephei]

I'd be willing to accept it as paladin casting of the level of cleric had at the current time.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Yeah sure, an Archivist ... 


Hey, if your DM doesn't mind giving you that
Air Elemental template for LA+0 then go for it.
The Cleric 4 / Cru 1 build with this is good enough.
Mineral Warrior with LA+3 isn't all that helpful,
especially without la buy-off.  Things get hinky, fast.

[Cephei]

I think I'm set on cool cheese.  My guy is getting very french in his power level.  It's going over 9000.  I am going to post how this goes once we start playing it in a few weeks.  If anything guys think this, disregard disagreements or discrepancies and realize that despite your differences this is totally the character I wanted to play in fluff and power level so thank you for the help.  I'm at least satisfied with the good ideas.

[Halinn]

4.  Battle Blessing only applies to spells cast out of your Paladin spell slots.  Unfortunately, no one in the entire campaign has any Paladin spell slots, so this feat is completely worthless and should not be taken by anyone ever.  This interpretation is patently absurd and cannot be what the designers intended.

I do not think the designer of either battle blessing or the prestige paladin considered their synergy or potential lack of same. Thus the interpretation is not necessarily invalid, although removing non-prestige paladin from the game would invalidate the Battle Blessing feat.
It is not patently absurd for the game to not work in a few very small ways when introducing an optional rule. That is just the consequence of changing the rules.

[Endarire]

Dragonborn Buomann (Planar Handbook for Buomann) is a possibility if you want WIS, flight, a humanish appearance, and no LA.  Also, Dragonborn removes the racial 'vow of silence' for Buomann.  Cast away!

I've heard Cloistered Cleric6/Crusader1/Ruby Knight VindicatorX works well, since it lets you jump right into Thicket of Blades @8, the same level a Crusader could normally get it.  Plus, Cloistered Cleric goodness including saves ending at a good level and +3 BAB from Cleric.  If you're LN or LG, consider dipping Church Inquisitor (Complete Divine).

If you're going Battle Blessing Prestige Paladin, then Clositered Cleric takes longer due to BAB reqs.  Cloistered6/Crusader1/Prestige Paladin1/Ruby Knight VindicatorX still works.  Is Divine Grace from Prestige Paladin worth it?  Maybe.

PS: Hood.

[Cephei]

I have a little trouble reading the Little Red Raiding Hood guide because of all the crazy colors and spoiler buttons.  Maybe it's just me but I don't like the way that guide is written.  I have trouble keeping my eyes focused on light red text.  I know it's all about ToB classes.  I may switch to that if what I'm using becomes a problem.

[Endarire]

Use the old 2.3 guide.  It's easier to read, though less complete.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

how could I forget,

Necropolitan, Anthropomorphic Bat
Cloistered Cleric X, Arcane Variant Swordsage1, RKV

one weird bad ass...

[Bauglir]

Arguably, Paladin spells might refer to spells granted by the Paladin class (in which case, you have to keep track of which spell levels you gained access to from Paladin levels; unfortunately, since spell advancement can't be advanced by another version of the same, you can't use RKV or anything else to progress Paladin, and so the trick is far less useful). This is, of course, stupid.

[darqueseid]

NOT trying to revive the argument about paladin spells,

If I'm thinking of building an RKV, what feat selection should I look at? as in what are the best?

rules are everything 3.0+ Wotc material is allowed, and pathfinder stuff could be allowed too.   

Caveat being that TO stuff is out of bounds, don't infinite loop me, and we try to stick to RAI,  (Our group plays paladin spells as its own list and all cleric spells don't count as pally, not weighing in on the argument, thats' just how we play it)