Author Topic: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?  (Read 4874 times)

Offline ksbsnowowl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4776
  • Warrior Skald, teller of tales.
    • View Profile
One of my players has a paradigmic disconnect with lower level spells not being as effective (via having lower save DC's) than higher level spells, "making them useless" at higher levels.

I've explained to him before that magic is like science.  I can increase my skill as a chemist (up my Intelligence modifier) and perhaps gain a greater percent reactivity/yield in a chemical reaction I'm running, but it isn't going to all of a sudden double in efficiency just because I'm a 20th level chemist.
Spells are the same way.

He bought the argument at the time, but his gripe came up once again last night (after game).  He wants spells to work 55+% of the time.  I point out that part of making spells effective is to target saves based upon the creature type you are fighting.  Giants? Target Ref and Will, etc.
I also pointed out that often times lower level spells become buffing slots as you get higher in level.

One point I neglected to make, and want to send a follow-up email about is that the party has not done a lot of de-buffing on the enemies.  Simply making someone sickened means they get -2 to all their saves.

To that end, what spells are there that will "automatically" sicken a target (happens even on a successful save, or there is not save against it)?

Alternatively, what are some other no-save de-buffs?

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2012, 10:36:52 AM »
Tell your player to suck it up and accept that sometime his spells don't work, unless he thinks the fighter should also deal half damage on a miss.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline dumah87

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 134
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 11:00:00 AM »
Tell your player to suck it up and accept that sometime his spells don't work, unless he thinks the fighter should also deal half damage on a miss.
+1

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 11:02:44 AM »
Here's hoping he figures out what heighten spell does.

As for an auto-sicken spell, I'm sorry to say I have no idea.  If push comes to shove trawling through http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19538942/Ultimate_Spell_List might be worthwhile.  Shame they don't have descriptions.

If you have PDF's searching for "sicken" might turn up something.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 11:08:59 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2012, 11:06:06 AM »
The God guide has a ton of them.  And, generally has examples of lower level spells that are boss even at higher levels.

Ray of Enfeeblement and Clumsiness, for example, are great spells pretty much all the way up.  And, even better with a cheap rod or a little metamagic.  A -5 to attacks and damage or a -5 to AC and Reflex saves is no joke.

Ray of Weakness/Dizziness/Exhaustion are other good examples.  There's also the classic Slow (many targets mean someone is likely to fail a save), Web and Solid Fog -- the latter 2 not having saves at all. 

Honestly, though, your player needs something of a paradigm shift.  A low level spell is a weak magic -- it's either a significant effort from a weak mage or a trivial effort from by a powerful one.  Against mighty foes, or foes strong against a particular type of effect, they will not do much.  That's the conceit of the game. 

If he's wanting something where a spellcaster's abilities more closely just track his firepower, he either wants a system more like Mutants and Masterminds or to play something like a Warlock, which has fewer abilities that aren't differentiated by level.  Alternatively, something like a Psion with the augment system fits this paradigm better:  you have a set of effects you can use, and you decide how much effort (power points) to put into each one.  Spontaneously Heightening a spell has similar results. 

All that being said, the aforementioned paradigm does sort of go out the window with the great gems of low level spells, but what are you gonna do ...

Offline Risada

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2069
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2012, 11:31:37 AM »
There's the spell Stolen Breath, from Spell Compendium. It is a 2nd level spell that sickens a living target for 1 minute with no save, but if the target spends one full round action, it nulls the effect.

I don't think it was mentioned, but Ice Slick (1st level from Frostburn) is good as well. Anyone within the area without 5 ranks in Balance is flat footed, and any attacks made against said target force a DC 10 Balance check or they are knocked prone.


Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10717
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2012, 11:37:14 AM »
I feel his pain. I really wish that all abilities just used exactly the same mechanic to determine save DCs (10 + 1/2 HD + relevant stat). Psionics does this somewhat via augmentation (the save DC for most powers scales with augmentation), and all supernatural abilities also do this (Binder, etc). It's too bad this isn't a core mechanic. It could make a very nice house rule, and I might just start using it in my games...
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline ksbsnowowl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4776
  • Warrior Skald, teller of tales.
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2012, 11:45:42 AM »
Ray of Enfeeblement and Clumsiness, for example, are great spells pretty much all the way up.  And, even better with a cheap rod or a little metamagic.  A -5 to attacks and damage or a -5 to AC and Reflex saves is no joke.
Yep, those are good.  Don't think any of my players have them.

Quote
Ray of Weakness/Dizziness/Exhaustion are other good examples.  There's also the classic Slow (many targets mean someone is likely to fail a save), Web and Solid Fog -- the latter 2 not having saves at all.
The last session the player in question "owned" the combat against a Rage Drake (to the extent he could).  Surprise round, the Beguiler goes first, tags the Rage Drake with Ray of Dizziness.  The drake could still charge up to its speed and pounce (against the Barb//Beguiler).  The next round... I forget, I think the Barb//Beguiler struck the rage drake with his sword, or maybe I'm getting their turns out of order.  The rage drake, limited to a single standard action, still pounced on another character, dropping him to 2 hp's.  The Barb//Beguiler then tagged it with Hold Monster, paralyzing it.  It made its first subsequent save, but it took two rounds to do so (the re-save is a full round action; being limited to one standard, it took him two rounds to perform).  He was dead before he acted again.

My party has been Webbed before, but I don't think any of them have the spell.  They are going to get webbed again soon, and it is going to hurt them. (3.0 Hasted Spell Weaver will Web them, buff himself a lot, then with his hasted extra standard action he'll hit them with Cloud Kill.  Then, after they've taken some Con damage and exit the could kill, the spell weaver will whip out the disintegrate.  It should be a learning experience.)

Quote
Honestly, though, your player needs something of a paradigm shift.  A low level spell is a weak magic -- it's either a significant effort from a weak mage or a trivial effort from by a powerful one.  Against mighty foes, or foes strong against a particular type of effect, they will not do much.  That's the conceit of the game. 

If he's wanting something where a spellcaster's abilities more closely just track his firepower, he either wants a system more like Mutants and Masterminds or to play something like a Warlock, which has fewer abilities that aren't differentiated by level.  Alternatively, something like a Psion with the augment system fits this paradigm better:  you have a set of effects you can use, and you decide how much effort (power points) to put into each one.  Spontaneously Heightening a spell has similar results. 
I'll point him toward Heighten.  He is a spontaneous caster, after all.  He doesn't really have the feats, though.  At 12th he's going to take Arcane Strike, and at 15th, Mindsight (he has a level of Mindbender).

Quote
All that being said, the aforementioned paradigm does sort of go out the window with the great gems of low level spells, but what are you gonna do ...
True, true.  As a beguiler he doesn't get to just pick whatever he wants, however.  But he's still got a pretty awesome spell list (especially since I reintroduced what is basically 3.0 Haste as a 5th level spell, and allowed him to have it on his beguiler spell list for free, because they get Haste).

He's been able to cast 3rd level Haste for over a year now, and he's maybe only ever cast it once...

Offline ksbsnowowl

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4776
  • Warrior Skald, teller of tales.
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2012, 11:47:26 AM »
I feel his pain. I really wish that all abilities just used exactly the same mechanic to determine save DCs (10 + 1/2 HD + relevant stat).
This is his main argument.

But he also loves Pathfinder, so take that for what it is  :p

Edit:  I should also note that I use the 3.0 versions of Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (+2 to DC's per feat).  I know he has at least Spell Focus (in enchantement, I believe).  He might have Greater SF.  So his DC's aren't too shabby to begin with.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 11:51:25 AM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2012, 12:11:53 PM »
I feel his pain. I really wish that all abilities just used exactly the same mechanic to determine save DCs (10 + 1/2 HD + relevant stat).
This is his main argument.
It's not a bad one.  Except it's at odds with all of 3.5 and Pathfinder when it comes to spells or any other ability that has "levels" (e.g., maneuvers). 

He kind of just wants to rewrite a huge chunk of the system. 

Offline Ithamar

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 885
  • I'm not new!
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2012, 12:15:10 PM »
Have you pointed out the Dazzling Illusion or Cloudy Conjuration feats from Complete Mage?  They automatically apply secondary effects when casting spells from a certain school.  The Touch of Distraction reserve feat might also be of interest to them.  While not incredibly powerful, and they do cost a feat (or two), they at least give some extra options.

Perhaps craft a homebrew feat that does something similar to what these feats can do?

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10717
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 12:25:24 PM »
I feel his pain. I really wish that all abilities just used exactly the same mechanic to determine save DCs (10 + 1/2 HD + relevant stat).
This is his main argument.
It's not a bad one.  Except it's at odds with all of 3.5 and Pathfinder when it comes to spells or any other ability that has "levels" (e.g., maneuvers). 

He kind of just wants to rewrite a huge chunk of the system.
It's not really a "huge" chunk. It's quite a small change, IMO, and a very easy one to implement. It's not like he's advocating the elimination of all Vancian casting. Higher level spells are usually more powerful for other reasons aside from saving throw DCs. (If they aren't, then they don't deserve to be higher level, but that really IS a whole other argument...).
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline snakeman830

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1091
  • BG's resident furry min/maxer
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2012, 01:10:37 PM »
Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion are good no-save debuff spells.  Sadly, I don't think a Beguiler will be able to use those.
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2012, 01:31:55 PM »
I feel his pain. I really wish that all abilities just used exactly the same mechanic to determine save DCs (10 + 1/2 HD + relevant stat).
This is his main argument.
It's not a bad one.  Except it's at odds with all of 3.5 and Pathfinder when it comes to spells or any other ability that has "levels" (e.g., maneuvers). 

He kind of just wants to rewrite a huge chunk of the system.
It's not really a "huge" chunk. It's quite a small change, IMO, and a very easy one to implement. It's not like he's advocating the elimination of all Vancian casting. Higher level spells are usually more powerful for other reasons aside from saving throw DCs. (If they aren't, then they don't deserve to be higher level, but that really IS a whole other argument...).
It's a simple change with unforeseen with possibly major effects.  The idea, though we all know that it clearly doesn't really work, is that a spellcaster has limited resources.  She only has X of her highest level spells or spell slots, Y of her weaker ones, and so forth.  Furthermore, spell levels were, I would presume, balanced with the DC system in mind.  Or, god knows they should have been ...

By blanket shifting the DCs you've increased the firepower of all her spells in a non-trivial way.  You've done something like the old Draconic Aura + Cold typing all your spells trick for all their lower level spells. 

You might argue that the best low-level spells don't offer saves anyway.  And, maybe you'd be right.  But, it's a non-trivial boost along the board, perhaps most importantly to a spellcaster's staying power.  Again, maybe that stuff wouldn't matter in the long run -- 10th level mages don't really run out of spells that often anyway -- but I'd want to think twice about what the effect is going to be.  Hell, I might even be happy with the overall result, shifting away from some of the more "broken" spells to better balanced ones.  I'd have to think about it long and hard, though. 

Offline Halinn

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2067
  • My personal text is impersonal.
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2012, 03:07:01 PM »
You might argue that the best low-level spells don't offer saves anyway.  And, maybe you'd be right.
Perhaps they're the best because they don't offer a save, in a place where the save otherwise would be low...

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10717
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2012, 09:24:58 PM »
You might argue that the best low-level spells don't offer saves anyway.  And, maybe you'd be right.
Perhaps they're the best because they don't offer a save, in a place where the save otherwise would be low...
Yeah, that's basically making my argument for me. ;) I'm going to try this out in a Tome game I DM (the Fall of Pun-Pun). Non-casters have been powered up enough there that I doubt it is going to noticeably break anything.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: Any spells that sicken on a successful save (or allow no save)?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2012, 09:45:23 PM »
Tome might be a good testing ground for this sort of thing.  And, please, do let us know how it works out.  I'd love to simplify D&D a bit -- the bookkeeping is my least favorite part of the system.