Author Topic: So, one of my players opened the door on the Gentlemens' Agreement. . . .  (Read 47170 times)

Offline InnaBinder

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Onna table
    • View Profile
If you're in my campaign, keep your opinions to yourself.   :P

At the start of our current campaign (with fairly low-op oriented players), I put forward a list of potentially problematic spells and abilities, with the promise that I wouldn't use any of them if none of the players did either.  Among the spells listed was Shivering Touch.  Now, one of the players has taken both Shivering Touch and its Lesser version for his Archivist, often preparing them multiple times.  It has, predictably, shifted the nature of combats a good bit, and made him disproportionately effective compared to the others in the group.

Should I start using Shivering Touch in return?  None of them have appropriate defenses for it, so that will probably get messy, quickly.  Should I start having the bosses with the appropriate defenses against ability damage/drain?  That will probably reek of "gotcha gaming."  Should I ask the player to stop using a spell that wasn't *technically* banned?  No doubt that will seem like I'm picking on him for doing well.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you're still retarded.

shugenja handbook; talk about it here

Offline Ziegander

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 692
  • bkdubs123 reborn
    • View Profile
If you're in my campaign, keep your opinions to yourself.   :P

At the start of our current campaign (with fairly low-op oriented players), I put forward a list of potentially problematic spells and abilities, with the promise that I wouldn't use any of them if none of the players did either.  Among the spells listed was Shivering Touch.  Now, one of the players has taken both Shivering Touch and its Lesser version for his Archivist, often preparing them multiple times.  It has, predictably, shifted the nature of combats a good bit, and made him disproportionately effective compared to the others in the group.

Should I start using Shivering Touch in return?  None of them have appropriate defenses for it, so that will probably get messy, quickly.  Should I start having the bosses with the appropriate defenses against ability damage/drain?  That will probably reek of "gotcha gaming."  Should I ask the player to stop using a spell that wasn't *technically* banned?  No doubt that will seem like I'm picking on him for doing well

Out of game, away from the table, in fact not even on a game night, ask him to stop using the spells. And if he disrespectfully declines? Give him a taste of his own medicine. You asked him not to. Before the game ever started, you told him you would use it if he did. Well, he's used it. Either you make good on your promise, or he'll start pulling more spells off of that list because he'll start to believe you don't have the guts to put him in his place.

Offline kitep

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1948
  • Lookout World!
    • View Profile
+1.  Talk to the guy first.

Offline InnaBinder

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Onna table
    • View Profile
+1.  Talk to the guy first.
I did.  "It's not a banned spell, so I don't see what the problem is."
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you're still retarded.

shugenja handbook; talk about it here

Offline altpersona

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2000
  • #78
    • View Profile
    • You are here
sounds like its fair game to me. let em have it
The goal of power is power. - 1984
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow
The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga still sux.

Offline Dragonmaster

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Applebloom is the greatest of ponies!
    • View Profile
    • D&D Trivia 101
First of all, if the players are allowed to use a resource, of course you should use it too where it's appropreate. That includes not letting every enemy use it to prove a point. Use it once or twice with an enemy caster to shut someone down, the players should have resources to recover from ability damage by the point they can cast 3rd level spells. You could, as you have already done, take the last way out and admit you made a mistake to allow that spell and ask the player not to use it in order to let the other players feel useful too. From what you describe, either you made a bad argument, or your player is the kind of person you should neither befriend nor play with. That being said, I would rather strive to mitigate the impact that single spell seems to have on your campaign than to force some kind of conflict with the player using a resource you clearly have given him as a valid choice.

You could just include an opponent or two immune to ability damage. Or make half of your arsenal immune, like running an undead -heavy lineup, or using a lot of constructs, both types making for good minions to a caster of any kind. A swarm or two here and there could work as well. A few undead-esque prestige classes grant immunities too. It's good to remember that creatures of the cold subtype are immune to the damage as well, so... if the player likes Frostburn material so much, why not pull a Frostburn type of adventure?

Or, for that matter, go the other route and give the enemies a cleric once in a while that can protect/save them from Dex-based paralysis. Even a low-level minion with a wand or scroll of (lesser) restoration can mitigate some of the potential harm from that spell. A foe with feats or prestige classes to combat undead (a vengeful inquisitor that believes the PC's are affiliated with undead in any way, for example... correlation is easy to establish) may have defenses against ability damage. Casters get some ways to avoid taking evil stat reductions too, and there are always magic items (as well as Naberius and the Strongheart Vest).

How is the melee touch attack (often a bitter enemy to squishy casters, the archivists being no different) being delivered? Spectral hand? That's another spell with short duration sacrificed for the combo, and it can be easily dispatched with area damage (casters usually don't have good Ref saves, so the Improved Evasion doesn't do much to protect it) or a well-placed attack (with ghost touch, a truedeath crystal, or a serren weaon, or just gamble with a magical one... this technique gets moer reasonable with multiple enemies). If reach spell or similar techniques (smiting spell, spell storing) are used, it's another heap of resources spent (unless the player has Arcane Thesis (Shivering Touch), which would be a serious slap in your face, or similar measures). If channeled through an ordinary melee attack in some way, hitting becomes even more of an issue.

The enemy could up it's defenses against attacks in general or touch attacks in particular, too. That dragon with low Dex and touch AC? Bam, Scintillating Scales. That spellcaster that looks like it took Dex as a dump stat? Mirror image, blur, displacement, blink... heck, even (greater) invisibility. You can't attack what you can't find. Snipers are another take on that strategy. Other enemies already have good touch AC... stealthies, many casters, a lot of outsiders and fey...

My last suggestion would be multiple enemies of similar strength instead of just one single low-Dex target that can be instagibbed. That would lessen the impact considerably. Or even mass assault the players with a lot of weak targets. So what if you can Shivering Touch an enemy into paralysis when the melee guys kill multiple enemies per turn or an AoE spell levels waves of enemies?

A lot of these suggestions are pointless if you are running a premade adventure or have already planned your entire campaign and are allergic to changing details here and there, but for the most part, know that there are very few abilities out there that are just that good without having a reasonable counter to them, especially for an enemy that does his research (divinations, espionage, knowledge/gather info).
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 02:58:44 AM by Dragonmaster »
~~~~

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
sounds like its fair game to me. let em have it
Likewise.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline kitep

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1948
  • Lookout World!
    • View Profile
I guess I'm just worried that I can easily see this not ending well.  But anyhoo....

Since talking to him didn't work, I guess you should ask yourself, did you intend for these spells to be banned, even if you didn't use the word?  If so, you should tell him you didn't explain it well, and they are banned.  If you actually intended to give them the choice, then he has chosen, so go for it.

But I would probably only use it against him.  The others have kept the gentlemen's agreement, so you should keep it toward them.  If the guy feels picked on, remind him it was his choice - and ask him if he wants to change his choice.

As far as using enemies that are immune to shivering touch, I don't think it will help much.  Apparently you handed him a list of spells, so he'll just go to the next one.

Good luck!  Hope things work out.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
As these things go Shivering Touch is a good one to use on players because it doesn't actually kill them. Just stops them with extreme prejudice. They can get back up from it just fine.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Hint that you will use it against him... then use something completely different so that he'll be unprepared for your actual attack.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline NiteCyper

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 169
  • Uploaded the stock avatar with better quality. =þ
    • View Profile
    • YouTube
Preamble: I venerate authoritative parenting. I believe that "parenting style" applies to more than parenting. For example, it can answer the question "am I being too pushy?"

Should I start using Shivering Touch in return?  None of them have appropriate defenses for it, so that will probably get messy, quickly.
Depends, in part, on how well that the party is forewarned and aware. For example, I'd feel a sense of injustice for being prosecuted by a Term of Service as part of the Terms of Service that I don't read, even though the Terms of Service are expected to be read and agreed to.

+1.  Talk to the guy first.
I did.  "It's not a banned spell, so I don't see what the problem is."
It doesn't sound like you told him that
[Shivering Touch] has, predictably, shifted the nature of combats a good bit, and made him disproportionately effective compared to the others in the group.
and that
None of [the group] have appropriate defenses for it, so ["using Shivering Touch in return"] will probably get messy, quickly.

Should I ask the player to stop using a spell that wasn't *technically* banned?  No doubt that will seem like I'm picking on him for doing well.
The answer to that is the opposite of the answer to: can you handle the cold fingers?

Assuming "[Shivering Touch (has)] made him disproportionately effective compared to the others" = group dissatisfaction, what I mean by "handling" includes accommodating to sufficiently award martial glory to all of the group.

Should I start having the bosses with the appropriate defenses against ability damage/drain?
This is related to the above.

But I would probably only use it against him.  The others have kept the gentlemen's agreement, so you should keep it toward them.  If the guy feels picked on, remind him it was his choice - and ask him if he wants to change his choice.
This is an interesting principle. It may require justification in-game.

As these things go Shivering Touch is a good one to use on players because it doesn't actually kill them. Just stops them with extreme prejudice. They can get back up from it just fine.
I just thought of a problem with this: the feeling of helplessness. Gamers hate that. Otherwise, great.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 07:46:44 AM by NiteCyper »
What? NiteCyper's post is evolving!

Offline McPoyo

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
    • View Profile
Chain-spell. It'll likely either drop the entire party at once, or severely weaken them for capture. New adventure time! Escape and recover your stuff!

Offline InnaBinder

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Onna table
    • View Profile
Preamble: I venerate authoritative parenting. I believe that "parenting style" applies to more than parenting. For example, it can answer the question "am I being too pushy?"

Should I start using Shivering Touch in return?  None of them have appropriate defenses for it, so that will probably get messy, quickly.
Depends, in part, on how well that the party is forewarned and aware. For example, I'd feel a sense of injustice for being prosecuted by a Term of Service as part of the Terms of Service that I don't read, even though the Terms of Service are expected to be read and agreed to.

+1.  Talk to the guy first.
I did.  "It's not a banned spell, so I don't see what the problem is."
It doesn't sound like you told him that
[Shivering Touch] has, predictably, shifted the nature of combats a good bit, and made him disproportionately effective compared to the others in the group.
and that
None of [the group] have appropriate defenses for it, so ["using Shivering Touch in return"] will probably get messy, quickly.

Should I ask the player to stop using a spell that wasn't *technically* banned?  No doubt that will seem like I'm picking on him for doing well.
The answer to that is the opposite of the answer to: can you handle the cold fingers?

Assuming "[Shivering Touch (has)] made him disproportionately effective compared to the others" = group dissatisfaction, what I mean by "handling" includes accommodating to sufficiently award martial glory to all of the group.

Should I start having the bosses with the appropriate defenses against ability damage/drain?
This is related to the above.

But I would probably only use it against him.  The others have kept the gentlemen's agreement, so you should keep it toward them.  If the guy feels picked on, remind him it was his choice - and ask him if he wants to change his choice.
This is an interesting principle. It may require justification in-game.

As these things go Shivering Touch is a good one to use on players because it doesn't actually kill them. Just stops them with extreme prejudice. They can get back up from it just fine.
I just thought of a problem with this: the feeling of helplessness. Gamers hate that. Otherwise, great.
I honestly cannot tell what your suggestion is for handling the situation, given your responses.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you're still retarded.

shugenja handbook; talk about it here

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Are any of the other players complaining about him stealing the spotlight, or do you foresee them doing that?  If so, you should probably tell him that the spell is causing issues with the other players and that he either needs to stop using shivering touch or you're going to have to pull up the other characters a bit to stay even with him, quite likely making those other players uncomfortable at being told they need to do better.  The easiest solution is of course to ban the spell instead of bringing up more character and player problems.

If the other players are totally fine with him using the spell liberally, use it right back against them but do it tastefully.  If the player starts getting annoyed with it tell him that you said this would happen if he started using it and that both of you not using it would probably be better for the game as a whole.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
I guess I'm just worried that I can easily see this not ending well.  But anyhoo....

Since talking to him didn't work, I guess you should ask yourself, did you intend for these spells to be banned, even if you didn't use the word?  If so, you should tell him you didn't explain it well, and they are banned.  If you actually intended to give them the choice, then he has chosen, so go for it.
...
I guess this is my question.  If the real ideal solution is banning Shivering Touch, then I say just ban Shivering Touch.  You can try and be frank about it with him.  Maybe saying that you resisted banning things b/c you didn't like the idea of it, but you think it's probably better than creating an arm's race or that it will make for a better game, and apologize for the inconvenience or that he's bearing the brunt of D&D's lousy balancing. 

The only other option is to use it or some other questionable spell against him.  But, that seems to be a poor substitute.  It sounds like the goal there is to induce him to stop using it, and if that's the case, then a ban is in order. 

Offline Halinn

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2067
  • My personal text is impersonal.
    • View Profile
It doesn't have to be shivering touch you're using. The archivist player has opened up for using that list, which would by your agreement allow you to use the list, not just shivering touch.

Offline NiteCyper

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 169
  • Uploaded the stock avatar with better quality. =þ
    • View Profile
    • YouTube
I honestly cannot tell what your suggestion is for handling the situation, given your responses.
I was gonna draw a flow-chart, but those things are no joke. I can't type one either, because...I guess that I'm not making any suggestions, just giving insight. Looking back, I answered your questions with more questions which isn't unintentional.

It doesn't have to be shivering touch you're using. The archivist player has opened up for using that list, which would by your agreement allow you to use the list, not just shivering touch.
Quote from: The hypothetical
"I thought that you said that you wouldn't use that that?"
"Well, 'the archivist player has opened up for using that list, which would by [our] agreement allow [me] to use the list'."
"Of course, it all makes perfect sense now! Your reasoning is infallible, our misinterpretation is the fault of all our own, and we hold no indignity at this turn of events!"
Reductio ad absurdum aside, Halinn makes a legitimate point. If the group cannot handle retaliatory Shivering Touch but the group can handle another thing on the problematic things list, it can be sent instead.

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 10:36:16 PM by NiteCyper »
What? NiteCyper's post is evolving!

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
"Handle" in that case meaning not getting their underwear in a bunch over?

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
My thought was simply just adding Shiverng touch to your combat menu. Its a very powerful melee touch spell, yes, but it isn't really that monstrous. No need to get all fancy on it, just throw in the odd spellcaster with it.

Just need to know that you can expect it coming for Major encounters(e.g. dragons) and equip them with the appropriate countermeasures.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Cagemarrow

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • New to the new boards
    • View Profile
You could just easily have a caster in the background with it as well ready to counter spell it.

I know if I was a dragon it would be on my list of spells for that very reason. Plus an item that lets me counter spell as an immediate action.