Author Topic: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium  (Read 26213 times)

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2012, 02:28:49 PM »
I have a new base class and revision of the Lucid Dreaming mechanics in here, and might eventually get around to completing the PrC. :P
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Offline Morph Bark

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2012, 11:33:46 AM »
Lucid Dreaming redone? Nice! Hopefully this time it won't be all assbroken!

I may take a look at that Paladin re-imagining, but likely put it low on my priorities list. Fixes are usually not high on my priorities list, but they are usually also much more easy to Tier due to being based off something I'm already very familiar with, but one that departs a lot from the original is practically a whole new thing altogether, while yet holding on to the idea of being a "Fix".

I'll think about removing the spoilers around the Fix Tiers. Originally my reasons for them were because it'd look cleaner and because I wouldn't want them included in CTRL+F searches for Tags. Only the latter reason is no longer valid though, since I went with a different kind of Tags on them.

I also want to expand the amount of systems featured in the third post more, besides just Limit Breaks and Tome of Battle, especially since I recently got more interested in alternative magic systems, primarily due to WaylanderX's work as well as some novel* ideas of my own.

*Both interpretations of the word are valid here.

Offline Tarkisflux

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2012, 02:45:27 PM »
I may take a look at that Paladin re-imagining, but likely put it low on my priorities list.  [...]

Fair enough, but still :sadface:

I also want to expand the amount of systems featured in the third post more, besides just Limit Breaks and Tome of Battle, especially since I recently got more interested in alternative magic systems, primarily due to WaylanderX's work as well as some novel ideas of my own.

Hey, I've got one of those system things! You may have already seen a thread about it on GitP or elsewhere (there are a few now, including a quiet one here), but here's a link to my alternative skill system in case you feel like a long read. By way of selling it, one of the primary goals was to use skills to boost the power and versatility (and thus tier) of classes without having to worry about changing or replacing their class features, to try to even the field a bit. Another goal was to try and make players care about skill access in the same way as you care about spell access.

Offline Morph Bark

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2012, 05:27:45 PM »
I also want to expand the amount of systems featured in the third post more, besides just Limit Breaks and Tome of Battle, especially since I recently got more interested in alternative magic systems, primarily due to WaylanderX's work as well as some novel ideas of my own.

Hey, I've got one of those system things! You may have already seen a thread about it on GitP or elsewhere (there are a few now, including a quiet one here), but here's a link to my alternative skill system in case you feel like a long read. By way of selling it, one of the primary goals was to use skills to boost the power and versatility (and thus tier) of classes without having to worry about changing or replacing their class features, to try to even the field a bit. Another goal was to try and make players care about skill access in the same way as you care about spell access.

While I mainly meant magic systems of sorts (stuff like ToB and such included) rather than revamped skill systems, I do intend to look into the Tome of Prowess, because what glimpses I've caught were interesting. It also seems that a large amount of people who aren't you do consider them a part of the Tomes (in the Frank and K sense), which I wanted to partially tackle soon anyway.

Offline Morph Bark

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2012, 02:59:04 AM »
So I got a few things to add on to the Tier Compendium, but now that GitP is done for an extended amount of time I am unable to, and I don't think I could/should just do it here, since there are some things on the GitP version that I haven't added here yet, but I don't know by heart which ones those are, meaning that if I did that and later would copypaste stuff from one to the other, some of the new things would get lost and therefore make doing that a very suboptimal option.

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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2012, 08:50:31 AM »
Incidentally--though I don't think you were planning on doing them soon, anyway--you should probably hold off on tiering the spellshaping material until I mention otherwise.  While I have finished revising the actual classes themselves, I have not yet revised the formulae.  Given how much of an impact formula balance is going to have on the tier of the classes, it'll probably be easier just to wait.

And I don't know how long it will take for me to get to that point because this semester has left me with almost no free time for homebrewing. :shakefist
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Offline Morph Bark

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2012, 05:38:21 AM »
I've updated the GitP listing with some classes from here and there. I've got a few others on my list to tier, after which I will copy over the updated listing and put it here.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2012, 10:02:45 AM »
Well, here is a list of all of my stuff. There is a section in the second post that has the base classes.
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Offline Morph Bark

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2012, 04:49:40 PM »
On the GitP version of this thread, I am currently going over Fighter Fixes, the Part 3 of which will include Minmaxboards/BG material, which I'll likely also post here.

Offline Agita

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2012, 12:25:30 PM »
I've been meaning to pester you, but never really got around for it. Could you be persuaded to give us some publicity tier the War-Frenzy sometime? :flutter
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Offline Morph Bark

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2013, 07:23:20 AM »
I posted this yesterday in the GitP version of the thread, and now its here! Furthermore, I'll be going over Tier requests in this thread for a bit, and will give the Tiers at the beginning of this thread a full update to be in line with the GitP version. I see there are also quite a few big projects now here that weren't there the last time I was busy with Tiering (its been a few months), so they are candidates for getting a similar treatment to what you'll find below.


Mysterious Mondays

Shadow Magic has always been a bit of the odd one out amongst all magic systems. It resembles vancian casting a lot in some ways, but yet works very differently. At the same time, it shares its book with two other magic systems: Binding and Truenaming, the former of which is considered to be the most balanced magic subsystem in 3.5 and which has many fans, the latter of which is considered the worst balanced magic subsystem in 3.5 and which has many opponents. Shadow magic meanwhile has decent fluff in Tome of Magic, but neither really the strong love nor the strong hatred that the others seem to garner. Several people have built further on Shadow Magic in their homebrew however, some with a single PrC or a handful of mysteries or a feat, one or two with slightly larger projects, and then there is one man with a huge one. You might know him on the forums as Realms of Chaos.

His project, the Descent of Shadows, can be found here and is one of the biggest homebrew projects I've ever seen, especially for something that could be considered "just" a fix. (I say just, but it certainly isn't "just" a fix, clearly!) Truly, this project is amazing, and daunting to even read through it all! Luckily, for this, I didn't need to read through everything, just the necessary bits to give a decent coverage of the base class and their full workings.


EDIT: It's later!

Cultist: Fluff is very simple and prettymuch everything can be gotten from just reading the name. On the mysteries it ties that well into the crunch, by having them start out similar to divine spells (iirc, normally they're more akin to arcane ones). They never gain access to the level 7 or higher mysteries, but they got more uses of them than a Shadowcaster for each of them. Plus, Expanded Faith grants some divine spells off the Cleric list, expanding their reportoire and versatility.

Patron's Gift can be stronger when used on yourself, but only after level 4, and healing is never bad. The True Believer feat isn't a huge thing, but if you're using Relics in your campaign, it's an amazing little extra. Later on, you gain some resistances and immunities and small ways to control undead and outsiders. Not strongly so, but they're certainly useful abilities. Overall, I'm not sure about putting it in Tier 3, it depends on the mysteries, which I assume are slightly better than the ToM ones, but the Shadowcaster is already a good Tier 4, so this one is at least Borderline.

Hollow: Being an anime fan, the name of course first reminded me of Bleach, but the name is actually quite inspired for this class. Y'know, if Realms of Chaos doesn't happen to be an anime fan who took that name and gained inspiration from it to turn it into something completely different. Mechanically, they can be compared to a Shadowy Paladin, as they gain mysteries only at level 6 and are much more combat-based than they are caster-like.

Plunged Into Darkness feels rather weird on a base class (well, any class with a similar ability *AHEMWARHULK*), so I wonder as to the fluff-wise justification for it, although I do have a hunch. Exude Darkness is likewise a weird ability, but it has its uses. Moment of Clarity looks likewise useful, but its downsides FAR outstrip the benefits of it, and you can only use it "once per level",even! I sure hope for all the downsides and limited abilities to this class, it has something good later on! We'll see, won't we?

Then there's Pull of Shadows. Reading through it, I can't help but think that either the rest of the party needs to be built around playing together with a Hollow, or you want to send it into the midst of your enemies. Otherwise, this ability seems like it'll make the Hollow more of a detriment to the party than something good.

Inured to Hardship and Freed of Flesh are finally some truly beneficial things, but all passive, non-combat things. Shadowstriding is the first really great ability the Hollow has: yay, teleportation! Sadly, this only comes at level 5, a little late for something good. Then again, I did compare it to the Paladin earlier, so maybe I'm being punished for the comparison. Touched by Darkness is another cool one, and also movement-related, so the Hollow certainly will never be in need of much aid in getting somewhere in the midst of a fight. Shadow Strike is nifty, but because the damage is nonlethal and the damage bonus variable and usually not that much (though it can easily start at +7d6), its highly limited in use, due to the high amount of monsters immune to nonlethal damage. This dampens Felling Blow as well, which otherwise could've been a great ability.

Overall, the Hollow seems very weak. Their only strong point is that they can take damage instead of expending a use of a mystery, while still using that mystery. Depending on which mystery used, this can be very strong, but they do not have access to the higher level mysteries and require taking all the previous mysteries in a path if you want to get the higher-level mysteries. The class certainly won't get out of Tier 4, in the low end, tops.

Eventide Magus: Okay, wow. You get both arcane casting with some very strong spells and full shadowcasting. There's gotta be a downside, because this is like being a full-on Noctumancer from the get-go. The Twilight stuff just piles it on some more with its special sight of all sorts combined. (Not a huge thing, but something extra nonetheless.)

The Price: Oh, so there is a downside! Whew, goo--what. That's no downside. Sure, the casting check is a hassle, but you've got so many things to cast you can go with a few failures, and with a +11 on that check you can cast everything flawlessly. Ability and skill check bonuses are one of the least hard things to get together. And this just gives it all a further power boost! Tier 2, no doubt about it.

Ephemeral Watcher: Brief glance, first impression: this is the monk amongst these classes. Well, unarmed strike at least, plus there are some debilitating oaths attached to it that are a pain to deal with, but more doable than a Paladin's oaths. Still, additional mechanical penalties...

Dust to Dust. Handy! Everyone should have this for their bigtime enemies.
Armor of Darkness. MUCH better than what a Monk gets! Dang, shattering weapons even.
Ephemeral Strike seems okay, but then you see that it allows you to threaten to a range of 30 ft. OH MY! It's still not too powerful though, because it has its limitations. It's also useable per encounter rather than per day, so bonus points for that. (Also, this plus Stunning Fist = whoop-ass.) The Greater version is also, as it says, great. Good build-up.
Resist Magic seems a little out of place, especially the use of Charisma in an otherwise Wisdom-and-Dex class.
Twilight Reserve is AWESOME and would be god-like if you acquire immunity to nonlethal damage. You see, whilst with the Hollow's abilities you need to take nonlethal damage to activate an ability, with this ability the Ephemeral Watcher first does something, and then gets the damage afterwards (if not immune). The damage is not a condition to allow the ability to be activated. Nice.
Entropic Blow is cool. I hope a later ability builds a little further on it. (Strike and Assault, woo!)
Improved Armor of Darkness nitpick: standing in shadowy illumination already gives 20% miss chance, so that's nothing new.
Mantle of Shadow seems too much to me... but then again, spell resistance is a crappy thing, IMO, and should be gotten rid of.

Overall, this class looks well-made and pretty cool to play. It's not a high Tier one, because in many ways its like the Monk, but it has some good abilities that put it squarely in 4.

In short, it looks like my verdict on the classes would be, in order "simple, but good", "terrible mechanics, only downsides, some decent fluff", "no downsides to a lot of power", and "a very well-executed shadow monk". It seems to me Realms of Chaos' strong point is not the classes, clearly. Seeing as he is also the creator of Xenotheurgy, I'd say his strong point lies in creating something big, new and complex with good fluff, focused on the system, but not additional components utilizing that system. I'd have to check the Xenotheurge to be sure, but then again, the Xenotheurge is the only base class for that system (that I know of) and is therefore steeped in the system, and on the other hand it's a huge project that kind of scares me.

However, Shadow Magic is not entirely done with, folks! There are some more base classes, and to be honest, I want to ask you guys... what great Shadow Magic homebrew have you found? It's time to give it more love, and I'd definitely love to give it its own subsystem subsection in the beginning of the thread with some links to a lot of mysteries, feats and of course classes!

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2013, 10:03:39 PM »
Sirpercival has a fix of the base Shadowcaster from ToM.

He also made a class for his Magipunk setting called the Powerbard which uses very similar crunch to Shadow Magic, though the fluff is entirely different.

Offline bhu

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2013, 03:17:27 PM »

Offline Morph Bark

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2013, 01:44:03 PM »
Sirpercival has a fix of the base Shadowcaster from ToM.

He also made a class for his Magipunk setting called the Powerbard which uses very similar crunch to Shadow Magic, though the fluff is entirely different.

I'll take a gander at 'em. The Powerbard sounds interesting.

Might I resubmit dis: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1037.0

Sure you may! I've been meaning to take a look at it, especially now that I've also got a PrC compendium up on GitP. I really do hope I don't need to know the WHOLE thing behind the class, do I? I know that by now there must be over 50 PrCs, tons of feats and items and what-have-you. (And even a Bloodline, IIRC.)

Offline bhu

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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2013, 03:30:55 PM »
All the Feats and the Core CLass is in one thread.  The spells, gods, sublime way and items are in another.  PrC's are in a third.  The first two shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not expecting you to peek at teh PrC's.  After reworking the core class and feats they need redone anyway.