What's the most ridiculous thing you can do with a giant caster level?

[Garryl]

Nope. Arcane Disciple does not do that. It adds it to YOUR class list, not THE class list, unless you are going to assert that you having a buddy playing Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/PrC bard 1/PrC Paladin 1/PrC Ranger 1/Sandshaper 1/Divine Oracle 1/Church Inquisitor 1/someotherexpandedlistclasses X would give ALL warmages access to those spells, and that any wizard can now scribe Miracle because someone took that feat. Nope, sorry, but it doesn't work.

This has always bugged me about how people run this trick. I agree, the wording does not support it. If Arcane Disciple was "treat these spells as being on the spell list of your class" I could see it, but it isn't, it just modifies your spell list.

Also, you don't apply Sanctum Spell to a spell, so Arcane Thesis doesn't apply.

You do apply it, actually. Sanctum Spell is a metamagic feat like any other, using the same wording as any other metamagic feat.

When adding a spell to your spell list, you treat it for all intents and purposes as if it were spells from your class list; in other words, as far as that Warmage is concerned, all those spells are on the Warmage spell list. Full stop.

And another Wizard could learn miracle from a scroll that you scribed with Miracle on it; it is a Wizard spell at that point, after all.

Wizard spell or not, it's not on the Wizard spell list as far as the learning Wizard is concerned. Thus, he can't learn it.
Also, I don't think scrolls track what class made it, even. They only care about arcane or divine, spell level, and caster level as far as I know.

[zook1shoe]

There's a big difference between "your spell list" and "sorcerer/wizard spell list"

And you have to admit Amecha, everytime, you say "luck" or "luck domain" that is a different list than the "sorcerer/wizard" list. Yes, you can most definitely add it to "your spell list" but they're still comprised of different spells afterwards.

[Amechra]

Then I have been playing the game wrong.

[sirpercival]

Nope. Arcane Disciple does not do that. It adds it to YOUR class list, not THE class list, unless you are going to assert that you having a buddy playing Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/PrC bard 1/PrC Paladin 1/PrC Ranger 1/Sandshaper 1/Divine Oracle 1/Church Inquisitor 1/someotherexpandedlistclasses X would give ALL warmages access to those spells, and that any wizard can now scribe Miracle because someone took that feat. Nope, sorry, but it doesn't work.

Amechra answered this one above, but I'll quote here from the Shadowcraft Mage handbook:

Arcane Disciple (luck): All right. You’ve managed to get your character to mimic ninth level spells, but you’re still chafing at something. You can only mimic all the spells from one and a half schools. How unfair is that? Miracle is an evocation spell. If only it were on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, then we could mimic it and thereby mimic any spell of seventh level or lower. Well, it’s time to shatter the game and stomp on its remains, cackling in a little, gnomish soprano.

(i) A spell is a sorcerer or wizard spell if and only if it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(ii) Arcane Disciple adds the spells on the selected domain list to "your class spell list."
(iii) For a Sorcerer or Wizard character, "your class spell list" refers to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(iv) By (ii) and (iii), Arcane Disciple (luck) adds, for you, miracle to the Sorcerer/Wizard list (for a Wizard or Sorcerer).
(v) By (i) and (iv) miracle becomes a sorcerer or wizard spell, for you.

Hopefully that helps.  You may disagree with it, which is your prerogative, but this is the You Break It You Buy It board, and since the RAW supports this interpretation as much as it does yours, i'm allowed to use it here.

Also, you don't apply Sanctum Spell to a spell, so Arcane Thesis doesn't apply.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from -- it's patently wrong.  Sanctum Spell is a metamagic feat, which you can apply to any spell you prepare, or none.  The first sentence in the feat says "A sanctum spell has an effective blah blah blah" just like Quicken references "a quickened spell" and Empower references "an empowered spell".

[sirpercival]

By the way, rather than derailing the thread with arguments about Shadow Miracle, we can just avoid the whole thing by switching to an Archivist.  Now we don't need ScM at all.

[Amechra]

Wall of Stone.

Create your own planet.

[kitep]

Summon Monster.  They stay around long enough to die of old age.  Once dead, they unsummon, and are no longer dead.

[Cyclone Joker]

When adding a spell to your spell list, you treat it for all intents and purposes as if it were spells from your class list; in other words, as far as that Warmage is concerned, all those spells are on the Warmage spell list. Full stop.

And another Wizard could learn miracle from a scroll that you scribed with Miracle on it; it is a Wizard spell at that point, after all.

Sorry, but no. It's still a Luck spell, even if it is on YOUR list, it is not on THE list, which is what SCM cares about.

Also, you don't apply Sanctum Spell to a spell, so Arcane Thesis doesn't apply.

You do apply it, actually. Sanctum Spell is a metamagic feat like any other, using the same wording as any other metamagic feat.

Oh, whoops. Misread the feat. Sorry 'bout that.

Nope. Arcane Disciple does not do that. It adds it to YOUR class list, not THE class list, unless you are going to assert that you having a buddy playing Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/PrC bard 1/PrC Paladin 1/PrC Ranger 1/Sandshaper 1/Divine Oracle 1/Church Inquisitor 1/someotherexpandedlistclasses X would give ALL warmages access to those spells, and that any wizard can now scribe Miracle because someone took that feat. Nope, sorry, but it doesn't work.

Amechra answered this one above, but I'll quote here from the Shadowcraft Mage handbook:

Arcane Disciple (luck): All right. You’ve managed to get your character to mimic ninth level spells, but you’re still chafing at something. You can only mimic all the spells from one and a half schools. How unfair is that? Miracle is an evocation spell. If only it were on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, then we could mimic it and thereby mimic any spell of seventh level or lower. Well, it’s time to shatter the game and stomp on its remains, cackling in a little, gnomish soprano.

(i) A spell is a sorcerer or wizard spell if and only if it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(ii) Arcane Disciple adds the spells on the selected domain list to "your class spell list."
(iii) For a Sorcerer or Wizard character, "your class spell list" refers to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(iv) By (ii) and (iii), Arcane Disciple (luck) adds, for you, miracle to the Sorcerer/Wizard list (for a Wizard or Sorcerer).
(v) By (i) and (iv) miracle becomes a sorcerer or wizard spell, for you.

Hopefully that helps.  You may disagree with it, which is your prerogative, but this is the You Break It You Buy It board, and since the RAW supports this interpretation as much as it does yours, i'm allowed to use it here.

No, it doesn't. It still is not a wizard spell. Reread Arcane Disciple. It says it adds it to your list, not the list. I'm sorry, but it's still a Luck domain spell. Just copying someone else's arguments doesn't help if their arguments are still wrong. The Rainbow Servant PrC does not allow Wizards to scribe any cleric spell they want, or the Warmage to spontaneously cast all cleric spells without taking the PRC. This is the YBIYBI, but that still does not allow the rules to be broken. It's not questionable, it's more along the lines of trying to use a Ring of Evasion to qualify. It looks nice, but it doesn't actually give you what you think it does.

Also, you don't apply Sanctum Spell to a spell, so Arcane Thesis doesn't apply.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from -- it's patently wrong.  Sanctum Spell is a metamagic feat, which you can apply to any spell you prepare, or none.  The first sentence in the feat says "A sanctum spell has an effective blah blah blah" just like Quicken references "a quickened spell" and Empower references "an empowered spell".

Sorry 'bout that. Accidentally looked at the Tome and Blood version, where the formatting was kinda weird.

By the way, rather than derailing the thread with arguments about Shadow Miracle, we can just avoid the whole thing by switching to an Archivist.  Now we don't need ScM at all.

That solves the problem, but raises others. Manyjaws isn't on any divine lists that I can see, though I am AFB, so this is based on memory and Google-Fu, so you can't know it, therefore you can't cast it with Arcane Fusion. Also, as an Archivist, you have a prayerbook, not a spellbook, so Elven Spell Lore doesn't work. Also, you run out of spell slots, unless you're a necropolitan tainted scholar, a Festering Anger Illumian, or something similar, given that your miracles are 9th level, and so don't work with Lucubration.

Overall, it would simply be easier to be a level 5-ish Elf generalist domain wizard, and use all the price-reduction tricks in the book to wish for a one-use item of wish, and then to use  that to wish for a use-activated ring of wishes. That can do the same thing without worrying about spell slots or the like. Or, just use a bunch of CL-boosters to shapechange into a Zodar at level really low. Much easier.

[sirpercival]

First of all, on the Archivist:

~An archivist can very easily get a divine version of Manyjaws if it is scribed as a divine scroll by someone with Alternative Source Spell.
~The archivist does not need Miracles, since a divine Arcane Fusion (from the same sorcerer cohort who gave Manyjaws) works just fine.  The Lucubration then can regen Arcane Fusion.

((EDIT: I forgot about Elven Spell Lore, but it's not really necessary -- you can use an Energy-Substituted (Electricity) Combust on yourself instead.  Manyjaws is just more fun.))

As to Arcane Disciple: Luck, I still disagree with you.  I would agree with you if Arcane Disciple said "you can prepare the spells from X domain" or "add the spells from X domain to your spellbook", but it doesn't.  It says it adds the spell to "your class spell list".  You are a wizard; your class spell list is the wizard list.  Your argument about "all the warmages & wizards" etc. is a straw man -- each wizard has access to a separate instance of the wizard spell list.

I'll draw a parallel for you.  Say you are a wizard/ScM and you research a new evocation spell (as per the spell research rules in the DMG).  The spell is added to your spellbook.  Can all other wizards in the world suddenly learn that spell?  No.  Can you Shadowcraft that spell?  Yes, any other answer would be ridiculous.  Therefore it is a Wizard spell in your class list, and not on other wizards' class lists.

[Cyclone Joker]

First of all, on the Archivist:

~An archivist can very easily get a divine version of Manyjaws if it is scribed as a divine scroll by someone with Alternative Source Spell.
~The archivist does not need Miracles, since a divine Arcane Fusion (from the same sorcerer cohort who gave Manyjaws) works just fine.  The Lucubration then can regen Arcane Fusion.

Again, doesn't work. Scroll is divine, but the spell still isn't.

As to Arcane Disciple: Luck, I still disagree with you.  I would agree with you if Arcane Disciple said "you can prepare the spells from X domain" or "add the spells from X domain to your spellbook", but it doesn't.  It says it adds the spell to "your class spell list".  You are a wizard; your class spell list is the wizard list.  Your argument about "all the warmages & wizards" etc. is a straw man -- each wizard has access to a separate instance of the wizard spell list.

No, it isn't. It adds it to your spell list. That still does not change it from a Luck spell to a Wizard spell. ScM only cares about it being a Sor/Wiz spell, not if a random sorcerer could cast it. If it worked that way, if it added to the list proper, there's no reason my warmage can't cast cleric spells, since some Rainbow Servant in Snakeville reached level 11.

I'll draw a parallel for you.  Say you are a wizard/ScM and you research a new evocation spell (as per the spell research rules in the DMG).  The spell is added to your spellbook.  Can all other wizards in the world suddenly learn that spell?  No.  Can you Shadowcraft that spell?  Yes, any other answer would be ridiculous.  Therefore it is a Wizard spell in your class list, and not on other wizards' class lists.

Yeah, they can. It's a wizard spell, therefore any wizard meeting the prereqs can learn/cast it, just the same as anyone stealing his spellbook. The spell list is absolute. An individual's list is not, but the list is, and the list is the only thing the ScM cares about.

[sirpercival]

First of all, on the Archivist:

~An archivist can very easily get a divine version of Manyjaws if it is scribed as a divine scroll by someone with Alternative Source Spell.
~The archivist does not need Miracles, since a divine Arcane Fusion (from the same sorcerer cohort who gave Manyjaws) works just fine.  The Lucubration then can regen Arcane Fusion.

Again, doesn't work. Scroll is divine, but the spell still isn't.

A "scroll" is of itself neither arcane nor divine.  The spell on the scroll is either arcane or divine.  The spell in fact is explicitly divine, since the wizard who wrote it would have cast it as a divine spell.

As to Arcane Disciple: Luck, I still disagree with you.  I would agree with you if Arcane Disciple said "you can prepare the spells from X domain" or "add the spells from X domain to your spellbook", but it doesn't.  It says it adds the spell to "your class spell list".  You are a wizard; your class spell list is the wizard list.  Your argument about "all the warmages & wizards" etc. is a straw man -- each wizard has access to a separate instance of the wizard spell list.

No, it isn't. It adds it to your spell list. That still does not change it from a Luck spell to a Wizard spell. ScM only cares about it being a Sor/Wiz spell, not if a random sorcerer could cast it. If it worked that way, if it added to the list proper, there's no reason my warmage can't cast cleric spells, since some Rainbow Servant in Snakeville reached level 11

I'll draw a parallel for you.  Say you are a wizard/ScM and you research a new evocation spell (as per the spell research rules in the DMG).  The spell is added to your spellbook.  Can all other wizards in the world suddenly learn that spell?  No.  Can you Shadowcraft that spell?  Yes, any other answer would be ridiculous.  Therefore it is a Wizard spell in your class list, and not on other wizards' class lists.

Yeah, they can. It's a wizard spell, therefore any wizard meeting the prereqs can learn/cast it, just the same as anyone stealing his spellbook. The spell list is absolute. An individual's list is not, but the list is, and the list is the only thing the ScM cares about.

Any wizard gaining a level and automatically adding two wizard spells to his spellbook can add the spell you researched half an hour ago?  How does that happen?  As soon as you research it, it becomes part of the collective magical unconscious of the world?  No.  Each wizard has a "wizard spell list" which is his own class spell list.  If you don't have a more compelling argument than the warmage one, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Cyclone Joker]

A "scroll" is of itself neither arcane nor divine.  The spell on the scroll is either arcane or divine.  The spell in fact is explicitly divine, since the wizard who wrote it would have cast it as a divine spell.

Incorrect.

Any wizard gaining a level and automatically adding two wizard spells to his spellbook can add the spell you researched half an hour ago?  How does that happen?  As soon as you research it, it becomes part of the collective magical unconscious of the world?  No.  Each wizard has a "wizard spell list" which is his own class spell list.  If you don't have a more compelling argument than the warmage one, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

So, first you disregard my poking holes in your build by claiming strict(And incorrect) adherence to RAW, and now you're trying to override RAW with fluff? How it happens is that the rules say it does. Same with magic and gravity ignoring the square cube law, or rogues traveling hundreds of miles instantaneously by making a reflex save on a colony drop. Next are you going to ask how a barbarian survives a whale being dropped on him, or a frenzied berserker surviving being turned into chunky salsa?

Oh, and by the way? I do like that magical subconscious idea. I might steal that. Vaguely reminds me of Code Geass, too, or at least the trippier parts.

[zook1shoe]

Does this help?

 http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/rotrllegacy/wikis/alternate-source-spell

[Cyclone Joker]

First off, no. Second off, nowhere in there does it say it allows you to Scribe divine spells. Sorry, bro. Still doesn't work.

[sirpercival]

A "scroll" is of itself neither arcane nor divine.  The spell on the scroll is either arcane or divine.  The spell in fact is explicitly divine, since the wizard who wrote it would have cast it as a divine spell.

Incorrect.

Which part is incorrect?

Any wizard gaining a level and automatically adding two wizard spells to his spellbook can add the spell you researched half an hour ago?  How does that happen?  As soon as you research it, it becomes part of the collective magical unconscious of the world?  No.  Each wizard has a "wizard spell list" which is his own class spell list.  If you don't have a more compelling argument than the warmage one, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

So, first you disregard my poking holes in your build by claiming strict(And incorrect) adherence to RAW, and now you're trying to override RAW with fluff? How it happens is that the rules say it does. Same with magic and gravity ignoring the square cube law, or rogues traveling hundreds of miles instantaneously by making a reflex save on a colony drop. Next are you going to ask how a barbarian survives a whale being dropped on him, or a frenzied berserker surviving being turned into chunky salsa?

Oh, and by the way? I do like that magical subconscious idea. I might steal that. Vaguely reminds me of Code Geass, too, or at least the trippier parts.

Actually that is a pretty cool idea, and kinda reminds me of Terry Pratchett.  Go me.

But either way I disagree with what you're saying is RAW, and you haven't given any rules text to convince me other than "all the warmages in the world don't get to learn cleric spells because of one Rainbow Servant", which is consistent with what I said about different instances of the Wizard spell list.

[sirpercival]

First off, no. Second off, nowhere in there does it say it allows you to Scribe divine spells. Sorry, bro. Still doesn't work.

You can scribe a scroll of any spell you can cast.  You can cast divine wizard spells.  Therefore, you can scribe a scroll of a divine wizard spell.  I fail to see the flaw in this logic.

[betrayor]

There are manyways to make divine versions of Sow/Wiz spells....
One which is ruletight is the Hexer prestige class which can cast any sor/wiz spell as a divine spell thus enabling it for archivist selection....

[Garryl]

As to Arcane Disciple: Luck, I still disagree with you.  I would agree with you if Arcane Disciple said "you can prepare the spells from X domain" or "add the spells from X domain to your spellbook", but it doesn't.  It says it adds the spell to "your class spell list".  You are a wizard; your class spell list is the wizard list.  Your argument about "all the warmages & wizards" etc. is a straw man -- each wizard has access to a separate instance of the wizard spell list.

... specifically, the bit at the end about instances of the wizard spell list.

Exactly. You have your own specific instance of the Sor/Wiz list that you use for your Wizard (or Sorcerer) spells. And once you start changing your instance of the Wizard spell list, your instance of the Wizard spell list is no longer equivalent to the generic Wizard spell list that SCM cares about. Specifically, SCM makes reference to "the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list", not your personal Sor/Wiz spell list. Or am I missing something?

First off, no. Second off, nowhere in there does it say it allows you to Scribe divine spells. Sorry, bro. Still doesn't work.

You can scribe a scroll of any spell you can cast.  You can cast divine wizard spells.  Therefore, you can scribe a scroll of a divine wizard spell.  I fail to see the flaw in this logic.

(The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)

I'm not sure of the exact interactions, but this may disallow the scribing of divine spell scrolls by Southern Magician/Alternate Spell Source arcane casters. Regardless, multiclass Cleric/Wizards, shared prerequisite crafting between an arcane caster and a divine caster, and even Hexer (that divine PrC that casts from the Wizard spell list) should be sufficient.

[sirpercival]

As to Arcane Disciple: Luck, I still disagree with you.  I would agree with you if Arcane Disciple said "you can prepare the spells from X domain" or "add the spells from X domain to your spellbook", but it doesn't.  It says it adds the spell to "your class spell list".  You are a wizard; your class spell list is the wizard list.  Your argument about "all the warmages & wizards" etc. is a straw man -- each wizard has access to a separate instance of the wizard spell list.

... specifically, the bit at the end about instances of the wizard spell list.

Exactly. You have your own specific instance of the Sor/Wiz list that you use for your Wizard (or Sorcerer) spells. And once you start changing your instance of the Wizard spell list, your instance of the Wizard spell list is no longer equivalent to the generic Wizard spell list that SCM cares about. Specifically, SCM makes reference to "the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list", not your personal Sor/Wiz spell list. Or am I missing something?

But for a given ScM, your personal Sor/Wiz spell list is "the Sor/Wiz spell list".  Otherwise he couldn't learn any other spells (all quotes emphasis mine):

Spells
A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

So, he takes Arcane Disciple: Luck, but can't learn any of the spells because they're not on the Sor/Wiz list.  But oh wait, Arcane Disciple says:

You may learn these spells as normal for your class

So these are normal spells that you can learn, and normal spells are on the Sor/Wiz list for you.  Therefore they are on the Sor/Wiz list and you can Shadowcraft them.

First off, no. Second off, nowhere in there does it say it allows you to Scribe divine spells. Sorry, bro. Still doesn't work.

You can scribe a scroll of any spell you can cast.  You can cast divine wizard spells.  Therefore, you can scribe a scroll of a divine wizard spell.  I fail to see the flaw in this logic.

(The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)

I'm not sure of the exact interactions, but this may disallow the scribing of divine spell scrolls by Southern Magician/Alternate Spell Source arcane casters.  Regardless, multiclass Cleric/Wizards, shared prerequisite crafting between an arcane caster and a divine caster, and even Hexer (that divine PrC that casts from the Wizard spell list) should be sufficient.

Yes, you've convinced me that another layer of prereqs is necessary.  Multiclassing with a divine class, or artificer 1 + UMD.  Either way, not a problem.

[sirpercival]

Sorry I was snarky, G -- it's been a long day, and I took it out on you.