Author Topic: Why WOULDN'T you optimize your character for power? (and other mechanics things)  (Read 12354 times)

Offline Endarire

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1662
  • Smile! Jesus loves you!
    • View Profile
    • Greg Campbell's Portfolio
FORENOTE: This post is somewhat system-neutral.  I put it here because I play lots of 3.x, and my mechanic-heavy tendencies have driven some of my friends away.

Ahem.


I am an optimizer at heart.  I think it's genetic.  (My uncle is an optimizer too!)

To me, some of the greatest thrills come with the assurance that I've made the best character possible to fit my goals within the scope of the rules.  I've cringed because I played a character and saw an optimization mistake I couldn't fix.

My background may have something to do with it.  I was the prime bullying victim for many years of my life.  I was largely a reclusive intellectual.  The story is long and complicated, so I'll skip to the point:  I found games, especially 3.x, to be a way to secure lots of power for myself.  Sure, it's game power, but something good is better than nothing good, eh?

Of course, my tendency toward optimization flourished.  I've played enough of Battletoads and hard games like it to know that optimization = survival, and, well, I want to live.  (Dead people rarely win.)

With great power comes great responsibility.  I played a Hood cohort in Red Hand of Doom.  Nothing printed in that module lasted a single round, if I hit twice.  Nothing!  After that, I focused on support characters, but mostly Wizards.  I was the party savior, a role I came to enjoy.  I did grow tire of it, because we kept playing the same first 6 or so levels, and my options and tactics were largely the same.  (Being a grappling Wizard helps a bit.  Enemies never see it coming!)

Though I founded my current D&D group, I'm the person who cares most about the mechanics.  Others care more for story.  I care for story as well, and loved how engaging Dragon Age: Origins (PC) was.  Still, too often, I'm told to ignore mechanics for the sake of story.  For me, mechanics should be the basis of the story.  (I know there are plenty of exceptions that exist and that should exist for the sake of plot, but being quietly told over and over to ignore my sensibilities and 'just have fun' or 'just roll with it' irks me.)

For me, this comes to the fundamental point of the game.  I want a playground.  I own seventy 3.x books at last count, and I want to use them!  Story is important, but this is ultimately a game where characters are more important than plot, and what the PCs and their players do and can do are more important than the world, its locations, and its NPCs.  I suspect this revelation is why I'm posting this mechanics rant here now instead of playing another game.  (And why I'm hoping SirPercival will update on my solo PBP game soon.  Man, that's thrilling!)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 05:05:15 AM by Endarire »

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
You're decceiving yourself by commiting the pun-pun fallacy. If you really wanted power, then you would've gone for the pun-pun loop that grants you unlimited power and options. Anything else would be... "Crippling" yourself as certain people put it. By not playing pun-pun, you're purposedly playing a weaker and less capable character than you could otherwise.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
So I can be a better roleplayer. Obviously.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
I want a playground, too.  I have not played in a game where books have been banned -- a common occurrence it seems -- at any point that I can remember.  I enjoy creating interesting characters who can do cool and awesome things. 

But, that's where my power impulses sort of end.  I don't have the desire to utterly dominate everything b/c I enjoy challenging games.  And, I recognize the rules are flawed, and at some point you're doing the equivalent of using cheat codes.  So, I guess I don't see the desire to create characters with "ultimate powah!"  Some powah! is required b/c like I said I like the awesome and the cool.  Some time ago, 10+ years ago now that I think about it, I was probably much more into powah!  But, after summarily laying waste to encounters with unskilled GMs (this happened a lot in Rifts) it got old. 

One thing I'll agree with is that there should be no conflict between mechanics and story.  A little bit of fudging is fine, mostly b/c it makes a GM's life easier and less labor intensive.  But, the mechanics more or less structure the rules of the PCs' and other characters' universe.  If you find yourself warring with them all the time to tell a story then there's a good chance you're not approaching an RPG right and more likely approaching it too much as a fanfic, etc. 

So, I think the OP is half right when he says: 
Story is important, but this is ultimately a game where characters are more important than plot, and what the PCs and their players do and can do are more important than the world, its locations, and its NPCs.  I suspect this revelation is why I'm posting this mechanics rant here now instead of playing another game.
The PCs aren't more important than the plot, their actions and reactions are the plot.  And, it's not that what they can do (i.e., their stat blocks) are more important than the world, its locations, etc.  But, those locations and that world serve the gaming table, which ultimately means that they are there to create an interesting game and environment. 

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10717
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
So I can be a better roleplayer. Obviously.
:lmao :lol
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline zioth

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • Moo!
    • View Profile
    • Role-playing resources
There's no reason not to optimize (unless you're playing a game of anti-heroes, which can be fun). The problem is when your optimization makes the game less fun for other players. If one player creates a 10th level fighter, and you create a 10th level multiclassed super-charger/grappler with ridiculous AC, attack bonuses and saves, the other player isn't going to have much fun. Worse, the DM is going to have less fun, because you'll overcome carefully planned encounters too easily, which being impervious to everything. And when the DM has less fun, the whole game suffers.

Optimizing for support was a good idea - you still make things hard for the DM, but rather than stepping on other players' toes, you make the game more fun for everyone else. You can also take your strong optimization skill and use it to optimize for compatibility instead of power. Look at everyone else's power level, and carefully construct a character who's just a bit more powerful than everyone else. That's actually a greater challenge than simply coming up with the highest AC or attack bonus.

I like to optimize to some extent, but I also like each of my characters to have one critical flaw, either mechanical or personality -- a low will save, extreme gullibility or whatever.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Quote
There's no reason not to optimize (unless you're playing a game of anti-heroes, which can be fun).
What does being an anti-hero have to do with not-optimizing? :huh
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay


Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
You mean what, tag? It's
Code: [Select]
[url=][/url]
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline dipolartech

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
  • Handy Haversack anyone?
    • View Profile
Like in your Sig, where you've got english words that have a hyperlink. Its <a href="url">Link text</a> in html code so is it
Code: [Select]
[url="url"]Link text[/url]
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 10:56:10 AM by dipolartech »

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
My houserules
Code: [Select]
[url=http://www.imperatorkrpg.aaf.pl/3p-my-houserules-vt3.htm]My houserules[/url]
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline dipolartech

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
  • Handy Haversack anyone?
    • View Profile
Ok thanks!

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10717
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
He doesn't mean Lobo, he means something more like Jimmy Olsen in the Silver Age except without out having Superman there to save him.
Then he's misusing the term Anti-hero.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
He doesn't mean Lobo, he means something more like Jimmy Olsen in the Silver Age except without out having Superman there to save him.
Then he's misusing the term Anti-hero.

Big time... People like Dr.Doom are anti-heroes...

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10717
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
He doesn't mean Lobo, he means something more like Jimmy Olsen in the Silver Age except without out having Superman there to save him.
Then he's misusing the term Anti-hero.

Big time... People like Dr.Doom are anti-heroes...
The one that comes to mind for me is Magneto.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Possibly but I am a big Doom fanboy. One of the few characters that I actually struggle to stat for d&d.

Probably either wizard or artificer but he also has super martial arts type feats... Like punching a lion to death while naked...
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 11:52:06 AM by littha »

Offline zioth

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • Moo!
    • View Profile
    • Role-playing resources
Alright. Unlikely hero would have been the more correct term. Sorry.

Offline dipolartech

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
  • Handy Haversack anyone?
    • View Profile
My friends and I sat down and tried to figure out the source/type of power that Dr. Doom has... the best we came up with is that he is able to be retroactively prepared for anything. No matter how much preparations or superpowers it would take to dea lwith the situation he rectroactively gets them. So nothing that happens is enough to completely stop him.

Offline RedWarlock

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 628
  • Crimson-colored caster of calamity
    • View Profile
    • Red Blade Studios
So.. Factotum?
WarCraft post-d20: A new take on the World of WarCraft for tabletop. I need your eyes and comments!

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
I once came up with a wizard/runesmith//artificer gestalt for doom but he also does things like catching Captain America's shield which imply a high martial arts ability too...