Author Topic: Gestalt Beguiler Build Help (Read 9028 times)

ShadowfoxDrow · « **on:** August 07, 2012, 05:34:43 PM »

Hey everyone. I'm looking at playing in an assassin campaign, and I'm wondering if you folks can help me with my build. The game itself is a Gestalt game, there will be Team, Solo, and PvP aspects, and so I'd rather not be dependant on anyone else, or at least if I am, have that dependancy be supplied indirectly by me through manipulation and charm.

I've decided to be a Lesser Fey'ri (Lesser in the same sense that Lesser Tieflings are Lesser, OK'd by DM), which will eat up the first level on one side of my gestalt. I've decided to be a beguiler, as it's flavour of social enchanting/illusion rogue really piqued my interest. I've looked at the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook (DM Ok'd me dropping the gnome requirement) and the Beguiler handbook, but am wondering if any adjustments can be made since I have a whole other side of Gestalt (minus 1st level) to play with.

My stats I rolled are: 17, 17, 16, 15, 15, 14.

I've set them up like so:
Str - 15
Dex - 19 (17 base, +2 Race)
Con - 14 (16 base, -2 Race)
Int - 19 (17 base, +2 Race)
Wis - 15
Cha - 16

I've decided that Shadowcraft Mage is where I want to go with this character, and anything that adds to that, both flavour- and crunch-wise, would be much appreciated.

Here are the Character creation rules for the game:

(click to show/hide)

I'm looking for you guys to help me make an effective character.

I've thought of two paths for the other side of the gestalt my character, but others are certainly welcome. The first is a Psion/Thrallherd type build, and the second is a rogue/assassin type build. Again these are ideas, and not set in stone.

I'm open to all suggestions and discussion, so please feel free. I'd like to be able to manipulate pretty much anyone I need to with relative ease, and I'd like to not be useless in combat. I don't need to be damage dealing, but at least Battlefield control and such. Neither side of the gestalt is well-made at this point, I'd like to change that in the next few days.

Thanks,
Shadow

P.S.- Any questions just ask!

xaotiq1 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2012, 05:50:26 PM »

If you had a better CON, I'd say Dragonfire Adept. That Humanoid Shape invocation would be quite helpful to you. You could go either Factotum or Incarnate. Factotum 8 gets you an extra standard action, plus great INT Synergy. Incarnate can boost some skill checks in to the stratosphere, plus other nifty effects that may aleviate some reliance on just spells.

ShadowfoxDrow · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2012, 05:53:58 PM »

I could swap Dex and Con base stats giving me a 18 Dex and a 15 Con? Where are these located source-wise?

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2012, 05:56:43 PM »

Dragonfire Adept is from Dragon Magic. Factotum is from Dungeonscape. Incarnate is from Tome of Magic.

Swapping your dex and con won't make much of a difference in this case because they're one point off. The reason for con being mentioned is the save DC for a Dragonfire Adept's breath attack is based on Con.

ShadowfoxDrow · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2012, 06:25:06 PM »

Gotcha. My two main issues are What class to pick that would both be useful and would fit the character, and what feats to take.

xaotiq1 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2012, 07:31:47 PM »

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on August 07, 2012, 05:56:43 PM

Dragonfire Adept is from Dragon Magic. Factotum is from Dungeonscape. Incarnate is from Tome of Magic.

Swapping your dex and con won't make much of a difference in this case because they're one point off. The reason for con being mentioned is the save DC for a Dragonfire Adept's breath attack is based on Con.

Sorry about not sourcing there. Incarnate is from Magic of Incarnum, though. The Tome of Magic does have the Binder, which might be a good fit.

geniussavant · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2012, 07:51:46 PM »

How about warblade or swordsage? Swordsage would fit thematically, while warblade would create a more in your face assassin.

ShadowfoxDrow · « **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2012, 08:44:22 PM »

I'm open to all suggestions

, though I am looking for more than just a "What about Class X" I'd like to see how it'll fit with beguiler or the concept overall. Also, not too experienced with stance/manoeuvre classes, so a little more detail would be good for those

sirpercival · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:00:54 PM »

"I'm open for anything" isn't really specific enough for me to give advice. What optimization level? What party role would you like to fill? What character archetypes do you usually like to play? Is homebrew allowed?

ShadowfoxDrow · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:35:59 PM »

I'm open to all suggestions being if you have something that at first glance might not seem good, but truly is after a second look I'm ok. Optimization level, not the top, but I would like to be self-sufficient and by no means a chump. If I could make it equivilent to a (maybe not-fully) optimized tier 1, that would do well for the beguiler class.

Party role is different in the sense that for half of the game I'll be working alone or even against some of the other players. That being said primary role would be a caster that manipulates people to do most of his dirty work for him, though I would like to be able to handle myself (though I care less about melee usefulness) in situations where I can't make people do things for me. Shadow Caster is a theme, if not a PrC I'll be taking in the build (DM OK'd not needing to be a gnome).

Homebrew is allowed if the DM allows it, which is on a case by case basis. So if it fits, throw it up here and I'll see what he thinks about it.

widow · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:40:12 PM »

I would be tempted to take levels in Eldrich Master from Dragon 280. It gets:

+1 effective (not actual, just for duration, damage, range) caster level which would stack in Gestalt
Level 3, 6, 9 Bonus Metamagic Feat
Level 4, 8 Add another spell casters spell list to your
Level 3, 6, 9 Get a spell slot one level higher than you can currently cast.
Level 10 You know when ever some speaks your name and have enough info to scry on them

Something like:

Beguiler 20// 1LA/Factotum 8/Eldrich Master 10/ 1 X

You will end up with a 10th level spell slot at level 18 and spontaneous casting of the beguiler, wizard, and cleric list.

geniussavant · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:43:47 PM »

Quote from: ShadowfoxDrow on August 07, 2012, 08:44:22 PM

I'm open to all suggestions , though I am looking for more than just a "What about Class X" I'd like to see how it'll fit with beguiler or the concept overall. Also, not too experienced with stance/manoeuvre classes, so a little more detail would be good for those

Swordsage would give that rogue/assassin feel. The shadow jaunt maneuvers would add free teleportation, while assassin's stance adds 2 sneak attack dice. Swordsage into assassin would be a good option too.

Warblade is less rogue and more fighter, but far superior to the standard fighter. Higher HD(than beguiler), full BAB, and combat heavy manuvers would benefit the character if you want a more melee focused character.

~~Party role would help for further suggestions.~~

If you want to be self sufficient, I'd go factotum into chameleon for the ability to handle pretty much anything. A single level of changeling rogue for the social bonuses would be a good idea too.

sirpercival · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:44:46 PM »

How caster-y do you want to be? If you're into shadows, my Shadowcaster fix may be of some help.

Some other thoughts:

~I like that factotum idea, there's a ton of synergy between beguiler and factotum. My suggestion is Beguiler 20//Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/X2. You get extra actions, 20th-level beguiler casting, 6th-level arcane & divine casting off the best spell list in the game, some SLAs, and action-economy-breakage with Cunning Surge.

~Your stats are strong enough across the board that I can suggest some MAD. The Nullblade is a perfect class for a solo+pvp game.

Max Zoran · « **Reply #13 on:** August 08, 2012, 06:44:58 PM »

To be completely self-sufficient you might want to consider a set of dips-

Cloistered cleric is always a great 1 level dip for the 3 domains plus it lets you use divine wands etc.

As already stated Warblade adds a lot, Full BAB, D12 HP, good Fort save are good but what you really want is the maneuvers. As well as a lot of offensive options 5 levels of Warblade can give you access to the 3 Diamond Mind stances that replace each of your saves with a concentration check. As a Beguiler you'll want your concentration skill and INT maxed anyway so these will help your survivability a lot.

1 level of Warlock can give you Beguiling Influence for a +6 on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate checks.

Alternatively you can be self sufficient by making sure for anything you can't do yourself you can summon something that can. Something like a Focused Specialist specializing in conjuration (forbid Enchantment, illusion and evocation as you can cover all that with Beguiler & Shadowcraft mage) and concentrate on summoning with a bit of battlefield control.
A good option could be to go into Malconvoker as it should synergize well with Beguiler as the maxed Bluff etc you'll have will help a with the Malconvoker's Deceptive Summons and Bindings. Also Malconvoker should fit your theme of manipulating everyone (Bluffing daemons and devils into helping you do good

.

ShadowfoxDrow · « **Reply #14 on:** August 08, 2012, 09:40:35 PM »

A build another person suggested elsewhere was this:

Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14// Cloistered Cleric 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Master Specialist 1/ Shadow Adept 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 7.

Possible feat tree for this

(click to show/hide)

(I'd like to add Quicken Spell in there somewhere, Incantrix was suggested instead ofShadowcrafter.

How does this compare to what I'm thinking with the Factotum:

Beguiler 6/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 1/Shadow Adept 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 6 (or something else(s) = 6)||Fey'ri 1 (+1 LA race)/Factotem 8/Chameleon 10/Something Else 1.

I'm going to see if I can get a +1 Caster Level PrC that will give Chameleon the ability to cast level 7 spells (the table has an easy progression pattern to make it easy lol)

What would my feat tree progression look like for this one? Probably similar, but needing to pick up Able learner, and preferably a Font of Inspiration or two.

JohnnyMayHymn · « **Reply #15 on:** August 08, 2012, 10:21:35 PM »

The main thing you need to worry about for the other side is what are you going to do against enemies that are immune to your illusions/beguiler spells? I think you're on to something with Thrallherd.

Psychic Warrior 5 can get into Thrallherd, it just needs that feat(forgetting the name of at the moment) to grab mindlink. This will make you less squishy and more dangerous in melee (if needed) in the lower levels. With Thrallherd, you only really need the first level to get the one Thrall and tons of believers. This will leave the beguiler side open for SCM and all of that shadow evocation awesomeness. You could even take factotum after thrallherd, or start dipping crusader, warblade, swordsage, barbarian, cloistered cleric, etc..

Beguiler5, SCM5, (10 OPEN)//Fey'ri 1, Psychic Warrior5, Thrallherd1(13 OPEN)

Now, from here you really just need to advance beguiler casting, possibly specializing in shadow evocation/etc..

Would you be getting a Gestalt Thrall? b/c that would be freaking amazing. Once a week get a Druid//Cleric with a level or two of hierophant, have him give you all of his uses of wildshape and turn undead for the next week. the rest of the time just pick two tier one classes for your thrall and trade them out as needed. Also, a Fiend of Possession thrall can possess your weapon and grant weapon enhancements or possess other people / objects at your whim.

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #16 on:** August 09, 2012, 12:29:28 AM »

Quick question: Can you do one PrC on each side of gestalt, or just PrC on one and regular class on the other?

ShadowfoxDrow · « **Reply #17 on:** August 09, 2012, 05:42:41 AM »

I can advance PrC on either side, but casting progression can't be doubled (so a +1 CL PrC on both sides at the same level wouldn't give me +2 to noe class, it would give +1 to two unique classes)

ShadowfoxDrow · « **Reply #18 on:** August 09, 2012, 01:54:02 PM »

As fire something that is immune to illusion/beguiler spells, I think there was a feast that let me drop our change spell discriptor [mind effecting] so maybe that, and by 8th level I'll have shadow conjuration and evocation spells. Ill grab an item or two as backup, if things go south before then.

Thoughts on feat progressions? (the posted suggestion, or with the thrallherd or factotem builds. Or other builds really lol)

Rebel7284 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 09, 2012, 01:57:37 PM »

The feat is third party. Nothing in 3.5 can drop the mind-affecting descriptor as far as I know.

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Author Topic: Gestalt Beguiler Build Help (Read 9028 times)