Why do fighters suck?

[Unbeliever]

Fighters suck because they are rooted in reality. 

I just never see this as a problem.  Or, at least not inherently. 

Suppose for a second that Fighters were really really good at stabbing people in the face.  That's it, they are masters of combat.  So, umm ... Fighters are good at fighting (shocker), and whatever we think that entails. 

A lot of D&D is fighting.  Being good at that would be sufficient to be awesome in a game. 

For example, the Tome Fighter is probably pretty much mundane.  There's nothing inherently reality-breaking about severing a Beholder's eyestalk so that it can't laser beam you.  And, that Fighter is pretty awesome, arguably too much so, though the Tome authors are very transparent about the power level they are building to. 

Now, maybe it's the case that you can't be "good at D&D fighting" without scoffing at reality.  But, I'm pretty skeptical about that.  That's based not only on stuff like the Tome Fighter, but also my own experiences playing things like Rogues and the like. 

[Zionpopsickle]

Really all you have to do to be good at D&D combat is to have your actions be worth more than your opponents actions.  Wizards are great at this since a single Stinking Cloud can deny a whole encounter their standard actions.  Fighters aren't very good at this since their action tends to be "I hit the enemy with my sword!"  Really all you would have to do is make it so that fighters naturally generate action advantage in a realistic way (something which thicket of blades already does) and it would fix a lot of problems.

I think many of the problems were that the initial assumptions of the designers was that combat was going to be a damage race, which the Fighter admittedly isn't too bad at, but in reality combat is much more about management of action economy and limiting the opponents tactical options, which the fighter is terrible at.

[SneeR]

Why indeed?

[veekie]

Fighters suck because they are rooted in reality. 

I just never see this as a problem.  Or, at least not inherently. 

Actually, the worst part is, Fighters aren't rooted in reality. Real martial arts are more efficient and flexible than a D&D fighter, who needs a dozen feats to do something that every serious combat style incorporates as a matter of course.

Any of you out there with martial arts or military training?
Most of them teach close quarters, unarmed combat. Its a basic component thats blended into combat, chiefly to take advantage of openings and opportunities more easily, as well as help survive and recover from having no weapon.
Most of them also teach the fundamentals of tripping and grappling, they are routinely possible to use to seize an advantage.
Two weapon combat is more the norm rather than something exceptional, having a second weapon gives you more options to defend and attack with.
Defensive fighting, or sacrificing accuracy for high value targets are likewise inherent.

To achieve the above you need a ton of feats.
Improved Unarmed Strike is needed to fight unarmed without simply killing yourself faster.
Combat Expertise, Power Attack and (in PF) Deadly Aim are basic martial adjustment tactics.
Improved Trip/Grapple are analogous to Improved Unarmed Strike, you simply can't use them without the feat, unless you like getting the crap punched out of you.
Two Weapon Fighting is quite literally impossible to use without the feat, and even with, its still too expensive.

Thats 7 feats, just to catch up to the same basic combat competency as a martial artist or a soldier.

[zook1shoe]

They're best at helping get into a martial PrC, by way of bonus feat at 1st and 2nd level, and full bab.

Other than that, I can see good argument for great specializing at a single weapon (or a few weapons) better than nearly any one else. Like a dungeoncrasher fighter with Two-Weapon Pounce + Power Attack + Combat Brute + Improved Bull Rush + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Lightning Maces w/ large light maces at ~9th level

[Unbeliever]

Fighters suck because they are rooted in reality. 

I just never see this as a problem.  Or, at least not inherently. 

Actually, the worst part is, Fighters aren't rooted in reality. Real martial arts are more efficient and flexible than a D&D fighter, who needs a dozen feats to do something that every serious combat style incorporates as a matter of course.

Any of you out there with martial arts or military training?
Most of them teach close quarters, unarmed combat. Its a basic component thats blended into combat, chiefly to take advantage of openings and opportunities more easily, as well as help survive and recover from having no weapon.
Most of them also teach the fundamentals of tripping and grappling, they are routinely possible to use to seize an advantage.
Two weapon combat is more the norm rather than something exceptional, having a second weapon gives you more options to defend and attack with.
Defensive fighting, or sacrificing accuracy for high value targets are likewise inherent.

To achieve the above you need a ton of feats.
Improved Unarmed Strike is needed to fight unarmed without simply killing yourself faster.
Combat Expertise, Power Attack and (in PF) Deadly Aim are basic martial adjustment tactics.
Improved Trip/Grapple are analogous to Improved Unarmed Strike, you simply can't use them without the feat, unless you like getting the crap punched out of you.
Two Weapon Fighting is quite literally impossible to use without the feat, and even with, its still too expensive.

Thats 7 feats, just to catch up to the same basic combat competency as a martial artist or a soldier.

I like this.  It never happens that I come across this kind of knee-jerk grognardia that would require me to bust out with these sorts of arguments.  But, in the unlikely event it happens, I will keep this in mind.

As a side note, I'd be pretty happy giving all the basic combat manipulation feats (Power Attack, Expertise, etc.) to anyone who dips into a martial class.  I just haven't given it much thought.  I usually just paper over these issues in the system by giving away bonus feats.

[bhu]

Change the fighter so he gets a number of FIghter Feats per level equal to his (choose stat here) modifier? 

[veekie]

Naw, thats just martial entry cost. Once you're past that you then discover they kinda don't have any late stage or extended capabilities. No combination tactics(What if you got basic Bull Rush and Trip(that is, no AoOs) for free, took one feat each to increase the distance of bull rush and to add an attack for trip, then added a third feat with the former two as prereqs to trip and punt an enemy as a projectile in one special attack?), before even considering borderline supernatural effects. They have no end goal really.

[Unbeliever]

^ that's a little overstated.  The late stage fighter type options are all feat combos.  It's a matter of combining chains to do interesting things.  And, it's achievable, though it takes a while (we're talking like 8+ feats, typically) and it's also highly non-obvious.  The level of opt-fu you need to get there is pretty intense, which is a major drawback.  And, with that level of opt-fu there are lower hanging fruit readily available. 

[veekie]

Well yeah, optimization makes some of those appear anyway(given an array of books to tap), and you have to admit, almost certainly unintended by the writers.

[darqueseid]

I guess the real question is why not? 

I mean, there is an imbalance in D&D between mundanes and magical, but I ask why do we care?  does it stop us from having a fun game to play?  The Fighters still serve a purpose in combat, because as much a god as the tier ones are, fighters can still do things to help the battle along.  Sure they may be less effective, they may not do as much as the wizard, but they are still in the thick of things... shouldn't the wizard, who has reality breaking spells at his disposal just be better?  hell a 1st level wizard can do things we can't do today even with modern technology -things we may NEVER be able to do. 

Its gonna be extremely difficult to try to balance a class that is rooted in reality, against one that breaks reality as a matter of course... and I'm not convinced that it would be realistic(as realistic as we can get in a fantasy world anyway)

[veekie]

Again, a fully realistic fighter still outperforms the fighter as it is. They dodge, adapt, combo and generally do everything better than the D&D fighter except A) take ridiculous amounts of damage B) deal ridiculous amounts of damage. And those are more due to the nature of leveling and damage rather than any inherent virtue of the class.

[SorO_Lost]

Again, a fully realistic fighter still outperforms the fighter as it is. They dodge, adapt, combo and generally do everything better than the D&D fighter

But Dodge totally gives AC!

>.>

[phaedrusxy]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Fighter is a great 1-2 level dip. 

[darqueseid]

@ Veekie
not really, so a martial artist may know specific techniques, and may learn maneuvers and such specific to his style, but the general "Combat awareness"  that you gain only comes with experience.

Experience counts for something. If you have the training necessary to be a black belt, but have never fought somone, even if its with pads or such, you will always be less effective as a fighter than one who has fought hundreds of fights. 

the experience you get lets you "level up" in a way, such that you gain a sense of how to move in combat, how to dodge effectively, how to block and counterstrike.

if we proceed on the assumption that the level one fighter has basics teaching and nothing else so they are equivalent to ~yellow belt or one step up from white, lets say the purple/brown belt is the level 8-12 fighter, and the black belt is the 12+ expert level fighter (using an American style belt systems which is flawed but gives us a point of reference).  then it actually makes sense that the level one fighter isn't really good at any of the things you mention in combat.

As one who has trained in and instructed martial arts I can give you examples:
Yellow belts: even though they may know how to throw a punch they rarely have the speed, or accuracy to hit with it, and since they have just started they still aren't in the physical shape it takes to throw a particularly devastating punch-unless they were in shape to start with, (and in that case they have another class compared to a normal commoner and aren't level 1).  Even if they do have the strength, their blows are typically so predictable and slow that they cannot connect against an expert fighter.  Kicking is usually still so inefficient and slow that it is laughable, so much so that they shouldn't even try but for the fact that they will only learn by doing.  They are basically a fighter with few to no feats.
Maybe they have some promise in a few areas, but generally they still suck, almost to the point where a commoner could still beat them if he got lucky.
-Improved Unarmed Strike? no, not at this level, again yellow belts only know the basics
-Combat Expertise,  no, this is only learned by experience, and this level doesn't have it
-Power Attack, they are still struggling just to hit, they have no idea how to pull or push strikes.
-(in PF) Deadly Aim, they don't have time to aim, they're too slow
-Improved Trip/Grapple, a yellow belt falls on his face 9x out of 10 trying to trip or grab, they just don't know what to do yet
-Two Weapon Fighting, a yellow belt would more likely hit himself if he tried to wield two weapons than his opponent


purple/brown belts: typically do one thing very well, they are on the verge of becoming good fighters, but they still make costly mistakes in actual combat.  An expert fighter could have trouble if they attempt to challenge this fighter in his specialty area, for example a brown belt could have particularly powerful or speedy kicks, or a punch that is difficult to avoid, however they don't have a range of skills perfected.  Usually the expert fighter will defeat them by picking on their weakness- maybe ground fighting, maybe their kicks are better and they stay up and at range.  At this level the intermediate fighter can hold his own, but doesn't know how to win in every situation. these are fighters with a few feats, maybe they've specialized in something, or maybe they've taken feats that have kept them versatile in many areas, but don't have enough to be truly good at most. 
-Improved Unarmed Strike? maybe, if this is what they are focused in
-Combat Expertise,  Probably, at this point they've learned to defend at the cost of offense...
-Power Attack, May make sense, if they have perfected a swing well enough to manipulate the speed and strength of the swing
-(in PF) Deadly Aim, maybe, if they've been given an opening that fits their skill
-Improved Trip/Grapple, probably not, this is more of an expert technique, because its free, the intermediate fighter is just starting to learn how to trip or grapple, they aren't advanced enough to combine attacks, combos sure, but punching and grappling with the same hand is something they are just beginning to learn
-Two Weapon Fighting, Sure, as long as they have been training with the weapons in question



Black belts:  Experts; these fighters have learned the theory of how to handle themselves in most or all combat situations and have put it to the test in actual combat(or practice combat)  Additionally, these fighters have generally trained their bodies to react without the need to think about it.  One doesn't just learn the theory of martial arts, you really become good through thousands and thousands of practice points, kicks thrown, punches delivered; forms of movement mastered.  This is why forms are so important in martial arts, even though American styles tend to gloss over them.   Forms are there to help your body master the basics, then the truly masterful fighter can freely let their body "flow" through all kinds of combat, without having to put much thought into it.  the expert fighter is usually very good at one or two areas, and can handle themselves quite well in most areas. 
-Improved Unarmed Strike? likely, by this point they've gained a knowledge of how this works regardless of what they have specialized in
-Combat Expertise,  yes, but this should be better, the expert has learned to defend and attack at the same time
-Power Attack, should be able to make this kind of strike with any technique he has perfected.
-Improved Trip/Grapple, yes, this is the level where you really learn to trip and grapple...
-(in PF) Deadly Aim, Yes, usually very deadly.
-Two Weapon Fighting, Sure, and usually have enough experience with it to pick up different weapons without difficulty.


For me, it seems the fighter is actually pretty close to realistic.  whats wildly not realistic is the wizard who can do some crazy reality breaking things at level 1, whereas the fighter is just a yellow belt...

[Jackinthegreen]

Deadly Defense is probably the D&D equivalent of doing more damage while fighting defensively.  Unarmed attacks are light weapons after all.

There's also the possibility of larger martial artists using their bulk to effectively get Improved Bull Rush.  I know I'm big enough that I can definitely move people and even topple them.  I've also had some experience with martial arts, though I've never gotten in an actual fight.  At least I've had the upper hand against most of my sparring partners over the years.

[veekie]

@darqueseid
The issue is the rate of scaling. The game presents enemies, and most other classes as black belts by level 6. The fighter takes twice as many levels to attain the same rating, by which time they are hopelessly out of date.

Note the feats are a bit too much for basic training.
Basic, freebie Unarmed Strike should be in the sense of simply being able to attack unarmed without getting an AoO. The same goes for Trip and Grapple, you are taught the basics, which include not getting killed doing it, but no more unless you take the feat.
Inane prereqs also get in the way of course. Whirlwind attack hooking up to SPRING ATTACK of all things, rather than the much more natural Cleave. Disarm/Trip extending off Combat Expertise(how do they relate, even, other than a given skilled fighter probably having both anyway)

[Arz]

Tower shield. Specifically made not to give you cover from spells, or much of anything really.

[darqueseid]

oh don't get me wrong, I agree with your point on the general issue of scaling.  but its more than that

Spellcasters get to break reality at level 1, whereas it takes years of constant training for a fighter to come close to what they do with a snap of the fingers. 

Celerity for example could have been made into a high level fighter ability.  One of the principle ways to counterstrike an opponent is to wait in place long enough for them to have committed to a strike and then move so quickly that they don't know what happened or they momentarily lose track of you so you can strike them easily.  most expert level fighters can do that move, without even thinking about it.   boxers do it all the time.

I actually think its that the designers didn't actually know what combat in real life is like, or what high level hand to hand combat really is like.  if they did they probably would have put in some more good things for fighters to do. 

one aspect of what your saying, veekie, that I could get behind is that certain prerequisite feats shouldn't be feats they should be class abilities that the martial classes just get at certain points.  For example, even a fencer knows some basic hand-to-hand techniques, and should get unarmed strike at some point.  Even a martial artist knows how to handle weapons at some point so should get basic proficiencies. the "combat expertise", type feats should come naturally to people after they gain enough experience so yes the feat prereqs and how they get the abilities they should have are rather screwed up. 

That being said, its not that the fighter class is so badly made; as much as it is overshadowed by magic.

[Prime32]

On the "fighters can do unarmed" thing... Remove the normal unarmed strike penalties, make it a martial weapon?

Maybe make a "Bash" attack based on unarmed damage, representing hitting someone with the edge or pommel of a weapon.