Author Topic: Why do fighters suck?  (Read 40954 times)

Offline Molochio

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2012, 08:27:22 AM »
Lastly among reasons I have to offer as to why the fighter sucks is: it can not ask you to "Save or die."

Unless you count level one when a 2d6 greatsword  blow IS death to most one hit die creatures or implement some kind of archaic first edition system shock rules, the fighter goes through life devoid of any real save or die power.

Not that there isn't a certain simple joy beating in some poor creature about the head and shoulders for 15 - 20 damage a round until it falls over twitching, but the fighter actually can not say "Dex save or I cut off your head."

No, he has to find a magical sword of decapitation to imitate that degree of martial prowess.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 08:58:06 AM by Molochio »
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Offline midnight_v

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #101 on: September 01, 2012, 11:39:35 AM »
I think I'll with draw from this conversation. I'm pretty sure unbeliver an I are talking about 2 different things.

I really was talking about "fighter" the class...
I do think that in the 1000 page posts about fighters someone proved the whole "Why not commoners then": I'm pretty sure keldars point while unkind was good.
You're certainly not going to agree with that in the light of your overwhelming anecdotal evidence.

I don't think its worth getting drawn into another epic fighter thread though.

I find that they have less options with feats than spells, but ultimately they are the victims over poor choices during the development process.

There are conceptual issues there too. I don't doubt for a second that you posses the optimization skill to make a fighter work. Especially if your team is helping create some kind of world of warcraft -esqe tank enviornment or... frankly I don't know what you're doing because there are many ways of going about it. You can make a team that shores up almost any difficulty or challenge.

none of that make the fighter class itself be independantly awesome.
....annnnd... I've given this too much of my time.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #102 on: September 01, 2012, 09:25:48 PM »
I think I'll with draw from this conversation. I'm pretty sure unbeliver an I are talking about 2 different things.

I really was talking about "fighter" the class...
Given that I've said twice, with emphasis, that I'm not talking about the Fighter class, then yes, we are talking about 2 different things.  See, e.g.: 
(click to show/hide)

I do think that in the 1000 page posts about fighters someone proved the whole "Why not commoners then": I'm pretty sure keldars point while unkind was good.
You're certainly not going to agree with that in the light of your overwhelming anecdotal evidence.

I don't think its worth getting drawn into another epic fighter thread though.

I find that they have less options with feats than spells, but ultimately they are the victims over poor choices during the development process.

There are conceptual issues there too. I don't doubt for a second that you posses the optimization skill to make a fighter work. Especially if your team is helping create some kind of world of warcraft -esqe tank enviornment or... frankly I don't know what you're doing because there are many ways of going about it. You can make a team that shores up almost any difficulty or challenge.

none of that make the fighter class itself be independantly awesome.
....annnnd... I've given this too much of my time.
I read the bolded text as snide.  That may be thin-skinned of me.  And, if so, that's my bad and I apologize in advance. 

You're welcome to disagree with me or prove me wrong.  I do, however, ask that things that I highlight and say repeatedly get some attention paid to them.  I have made it clear that I'm talking about an archetype and not the 2 pages in the PHB titled "fighter." 

Given that you admit that we're talking about 2 different things, I don't see any reason for that kind of response.  If I'm citing anecdotal evidence of A then what does all this theoretical evidence with regards to Q have anything to do with it?  And, that's what was the problem with you citing Keldar.  Hence, strawmanning -- you mischaracterized my argument by citing a response to an argument I did not make, and indeed, went out of my way to disclaim. 

I have to agree that it might be best if you skip this thread.  You seem intent on picking a fight with me over things I have not said, arguments that I have not made.  That indicates to me at least that something else is going on. 


@Molochio and save or dies
Conventional wisdom is that a melee character in D&D can do enough damage to kill nearly any level-appropriate enemy in a single round.  So, I don't think it's their lack of save or die mechanics that's the issue.  In many cases they have "just die" mechanics. 

Offline midnight_v

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #103 on: September 01, 2012, 09:50:20 PM »
Quote
I read the bolded text as snide.  That may be thin-skinned of me.  And, if so, that's my bad and I apologize in advance.
It wasn't meant to be.
Though I can see how that could be taken wrong. 
Aside from that you're just over reacting, in this case.

Quote
I have to agree that it might be best if you skip this thread.  You seem intent on picking a fight with me over things I have not said, arguments that I have not made.  That indicates to me at least that something else is going on.
Which for whatever reason really kinda irks me. I'm actually saying, "Okay, I'm done with this" and this seems so much like a parting shot."
Let me be clear... I wasn't picking a fight. You, I respect even if we disagree. Lets just drop it so we can stay friends.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #104 on: September 02, 2012, 04:22:15 PM »
...
Quote
I have to agree that it might be best if you skip this thread.  You seem intent on picking a fight with me over things I have not said, arguments that I have not made.  That indicates to me at least that something else is going on.
Which for whatever reason really kinda irks me. I'm actually saying, "Okay, I'm done with this" and this seems so much like a parting shot."
Let me be clear... I wasn't picking a fight. You, I respect even if we disagree. Lets just drop it so we can stay friends.
I agree.  Sorry. 

Offline Concerned Ninja Citizen

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2012, 04:13:36 PM »
So I'm hearing on another board that Fighters actually got fewer NWPs than Mages or Priests (3 to 4 supposedly) in 2nd ed.

Is this accurate?

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #106 on: September 04, 2012, 06:09:13 PM »
 :???

 :plotting ... AHHA ... Fighters need a Bash-alatora feat.
Mo-bash-tic Training feat is the qualifier that doesn't do much.

Fighter 1 / Erudite Spell To Power 19
BAB +20 and Fighter feat slots all the way up.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #107 on: September 04, 2012, 09:01:50 PM »
So I'm hearing on another board that Fighters actually got fewer NWPs than Mages or Priests (3 to 4 supposedly) in 2nd ed.

Is this accurate?
No. We were talking 2nd vs 3rd in weapon versatility.

Fighter starts with four proficiencies and one every other level, and they have -2 in none-proficiency weapons.
Mage gets two and one every four levels I think, and they have -4 in none-proficiency weapons.
And yeah, that's pretty much it. I suppose it's deserving to mention only the Fighter could reach 3/2 (i think) attacks per round.

Comparatively, in 3rd a fighter starts with Simple and Martial proficiency, which entail many many many weapons. Even Mages get more, Wizard gets a Two-Hander, two ranged, and a two others (sorcerer gets all simple too). So in 3rd you simply get more choice. Additionally, the Fighter's bonus Feats expand his weapon list (whilst 2nd can't) and pick up Exotic weapons, which tend to have a special trait to them, and even augment more tactical abilities, for example Boomerang Daze and Shock Trooper.


Offline veekie

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #108 on: September 05, 2012, 03:43:23 AM »
So I'm hearing on another board that Fighters actually got fewer NWPs than Mages or Priests (3 to 4 supposedly) in 2nd ed.

Is this accurate?
No. We were talking 2nd vs 3rd in weapon versatility.

Fighter starts with four proficiencies and one every other level, and they have -2 in none-proficiency weapons.
Mage gets two and one every four levels I think, and they have -4 in none-proficiency weapons.
And yeah, that's pretty much it. I suppose it's deserving to mention only the Fighter could reach 3/2 (i think) attacks per round.

Comparatively, in 3rd a fighter starts with Simple and Martial proficiency, which entail many many many weapons. Even Mages get more, Wizard gets a Two-Hander, two ranged, and a two others (sorcerer gets all simple too). So in 3rd you simply get more choice. Additionally, the Fighter's bonus Feats expand his weapon list (whilst 2nd can't) and pick up Exotic weapons, which tend to have a special trait to them, and even augment more tactical abilities, for example Boomerang Daze and Shock Trooper.


Part of the issue I think, is pretty much that everyone got access to Fighter goodies, making the Fighter weaker because while he got more goodies, he got nobody else's.
E.g. if weapon proficiencies were hard to get, everyone else would be using a shittier weapon than the Fighter, despite said Fighter using worse weapons than he otherwise could.

Its small things, but it does add up further.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #109 on: September 05, 2012, 10:58:27 AM »
Part of the issue I think, is pretty much that everyone got access to Fighter goodies, making the Fighter weaker because while he got more goodies, he got nobody else's.
Oh I agree, uniques is what sells the class. The easier it is for someone else to obtain your traits, the less powerful you really are. Like even the Monk grants two three bonus Feats, better saves, Evasion, and a couple other abilities as a 2 level dip. But McGeneric? Have two bonus Feats, and some BAB/HP like it makes up for it.

Yeah.... no. Do I look like I play 4E? - *cough* Low blow, low blow. - How about I buy extra Feats and play something with character?

Offline Keldar

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #110 on: September 05, 2012, 09:22:00 PM »
Part of the issue I think, is pretty much that everyone got access to Fighter goodies, making the Fighter weaker because while he got more goodies, he got nobody else's.
Oh I agree, uniques is what sells the class. The easier it is for someone else to obtain your traits, the less powerful you really are. Like even the Monk grants two three bonus Feats, better saves, Evasion, and a couple other abilities as a 2 level dip. But McGeneric? Have two bonus Feats, and some BAB/HP like it makes up for it.

Yeah.... no. Do I look like I play 4E? - *cough* Low blow, low blow. - How about I buy extra Feats and play something with character?
McGeneric.  Right there is a third of the Fighter's problem.  Like the other 3 iconic classes, the Fighter is all about being generic and covering one fourth of all fantasy archetypes.  Unlike the others the Fighter wound up designed by subtraction.  Rather than giving the Fighter the ability to do anything any fantasy warrior could do, they limited it to what every fantasy warrior could do.  (Swing stick, repeat.)  The exact opposite design principle from the all-mighty Wizard, but a bit similar to the Rogue.  (Who fair better than the Fighter as they do not suffer the third problem.)  D&D practically invented the fantasy priest, so it being all inclusive and generic is a bit of a given.  As the class is shaped like itself, sir.

The third part of the Fighter's problem is, indeed, that its abilities form the basis for everyone's abilities.  There is literally nothing that a Fighter can do that every other class cannot also do.  Fighters do not even get token advantages in enacting the vanilla combat options, let alone a worth while ability that spellcasters are barred from, such as the extra weapon attacks from 2E (ect.).  It is this problem that makes the Fighter suck as hard as it does.  It isn't allowed to do anything that someone else cannot do.  Ever.  (Well the Fighter-minus classes manage to be worse due to being limited specializations of the Fighter, but that is either due to lack of imagination or being NPC classes.  [Commoner, Warrior, Samurai...])

In older editions the Fighter at least had an action advantage.  (That, yes, it shared with the other two warrior classes.  Those classes were intended to be rare, and in less direct competition with the Fighter.  Plus, the ability requirements would typically give the Fighter better combat stats when rolls were equivalent.)  Come 3E, that advantage swung the other way and spellcasters were given a massive action advantage over the Fighter.  Exceptional Strength was removed, while Polymorph type abilities gave casters the Strength advantage.  Weapon Specialization was watered down dramatically, reduced from a bonus attack to a pathetic +2 to damage.  Yay.  Add to that that the Fighter's supposed class ability, Feat access, gave out piles of pathetically weak abilities that took a load books before any real synergy between them developed enough to make an extra 5 feats meaningful, let alone 11.  To make matters worse, spellcasting feats tended to be vastly more powerful than combat feats and scaled up with levels rather than stagnating.  To add insult to injury, Fighters have the most abysmal skill list in the game, but at least they have Warriors to commiserate with!

Plus, still no Familiar.

Offline Chemus

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #111 on: September 11, 2012, 03:39:40 AM »
To summarize the summary of the summary, people are a problem I agree that fighters are too generic and have no benefits beyond 4th level.

The remainder of this post in Solo's thread that I don't believe he's replied in, will be devoted to interpretive dance suggested fighter improvements geared toward making the fighter more attractive to stay in as a class.

Perhaps if the fighter could add his fighter level to opposed checks, he'd be a more competitive combat class. It might also contribute to keeping his abilities valid vs. giants and dragons. It would make the fighter better than other, non-fighter, combatants at doing stuff like tripping, grappling, bull-rushing, etc. If the ToB, or anything else does this, mea culpa; I really know little about it. (Though I do know that the Warblade can refocus feats like weapon focus each day; the fighter could perhaps have that)

Fighters should get more bonus feats, as long as those bonus feats are advancing feat chains. So on odd levels, the fighter would get a bonus feat that has a fighter feat as a prerequisite. The bonus feat need not be a fighter feat itself. It would perhaps improve the fighter's versatility if he didn't have to keep paying for the inflated feat chains.

Also, improve fighter's iterative attacks. Either reduce the penalty for additional attacks by 1/5 fighter levels, or fighters get additional attacks at every 3rd or 4th rather than every 5th BAB.

Make specialization scale by fighter level; 1 more damage per 4 or 5 levels, and improve the specialist's iterative attacks by either reducing the penalties based on fighter level, or increasing the attack rate by fighter level.

Lastly, give fighters a 2nd good save. Reflex is most consistent flavor-wise, but Will has valid flavor points as well.

I hope these would not be too much; they might trump the barbarian and ranger's abilities. Plus I hope it's not a derailment.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #112 on: September 11, 2012, 04:13:16 AM »
Mostly though, raw metrics wise they're fine, its just that Big Stupid Fighter is simply a consequence of the way ability scores work, and it became a D&D-ism that the melees are dumb in general. No warrior-poet, no generals and field marshals, no leader of men(which is a fairly big chunk of mythological or historical fighters. If anything they might benefit somewhat from increasing MAD to some extent, making use of their other scores to do something more than hit things and more harder.

True it means that they'd be basically stuck auto-attacking, but they can bring the pain there sufficiently to do something.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #113 on: September 11, 2012, 05:07:41 AM »
Mostly though, raw metrics wise they're fine, its just that Big Stupid Fighter is simply a consequence of the way ability scores work, and it became a D&D-ism that the melees are dumb in general. No warrior-poet, no generals and field marshals, no leader of men(which is a fairly big chunk of mythological or historical fighters.
-Paladin(Cha)
-Ranger(Wis)
-Warblade(Int)
-Marshal (Cha again)
-Crusader (yet more Cha)
-Bard (warrior-poet)
-Swordsage(Wis)
-Multiclassing of two or more of the above.

3.5 doesn't exactly have lack of smart/wise/charismatic melee classes.



« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 05:09:12 AM by oslecamo »

Offline veekie

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #114 on: September 11, 2012, 08:18:01 AM »
They prove it all the more actually, that they suffer the "only one trick" problem much less. Other than the Marshal, they all possess a 'spellcasting' mechanic as well, and barring where sheer incompetence takes over(Paladins and Marshals being functionally one trick ponies), they are all T3, if low T3.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #115 on: September 11, 2012, 09:12:17 AM »
I was replying to the part where you claim D&D doesn't support smart/wise/charismatic melees.

Anyway why should the fighter be expected to fill those rolls when they're already covered by other classes? Now granted the fighter doesn't fill any particular role besides feat dip, but if you want so badly to give him one, then give him a role that nobody else has yet.


And heck, even the paladin becomes quite closer to the others when you add the splat spells and Turn Undead options, for which there's quite a bit of support.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #116 on: September 11, 2012, 02:51:39 PM »
To summarize the summary of the summary, people are a problem I agree that fighters are too generic and have no benefits beyond 4th level.

Depends on ACF's.  Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim fighter come to mind as useful past 4.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #117 on: September 11, 2012, 05:51:34 PM »
Depends on ACF's.  Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim fighter come to mind as useful past 4.

That they do. However, at that point you're getting away from the broad "fighter" concept and going into something more narrow and specific, although that is probably a good thing. Still, you'd only be delaying the cutoff point. Zhentarim Dungeoncrasher could be described as a 10-level prestige class with no prerequisites.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2012, 01:15:32 PM »
Dungeoncrasher is an addon to charging, except no multiple attack set up, less damage per roll, and no possibilities of Trip Trip or Daze and so on. It's about as useful as a poopie flavored lollipop.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Why do fighters suck?
« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2012, 01:23:39 PM »
Dungeoncrasher is an addon to charging, except no multiple attack set up, less damage per roll, and no possibilities of Trip Trip or Daze and so on. It's about as useful as a poopie flavored lollipop.

Hence the reason for Knockback kicking lots of ass with that option, but of course it requires the character either have Powerful Build or be Large+.