Author Topic: Fighter/rogue hybrids  (Read 7364 times)

Offline Baran

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Fighter/rogue hybrids
« on: August 08, 2012, 04:24:09 PM »
We have a new player in the group whose first game will be Saturday (Aug 11). He came to me asking about making a "fighter who does thief things." I'm having some difficulty with this since I've never actually played this kind of character, so I'm reprinting our conversation here with his permission.

Joe said:
 I was thinking about making an elf figher/thief ... with the thief being unknown... would that be a 6/6 class ? I haven't played since 2 ed... so don't know a lot of the changes ... I can always play a ranger too, but would rather do a fighter/ "thief" if possible. I would need 85 points in skills which I can do , just need to know what class is allowed.

I said:
That depends heavily on what you want out of your character. I'm not familiar at all with 2nd ed, though.
((combat-focused rogue build))
 You will be able to find and disarm traps, have a general awareness of what's around you, sneak up on opponents, avoid opportunity attacks while on the move, set up flanks, hit other people who are on the move, and feint as a move action (Bluff check to make opponent disregard you).

Joe said:
 I want a fighter that the group doesn't know is also a thief, helps in picking up valuables to better gear the character or to avoid getting the group into trouble, by his sneakiness. Had a fighter that actually would pick locks with knives and swords if he couldn't just brute strength the lock...  group never found out he was actually a thief also. he had fun with the random pick pocket and appraisal runs..

I said:
I'm having trouble modeling this character in third edition, the main problem being that fighters don't get enough skill points to cover what you want to do. So, with your permission, I'm going to post this conversation on a message board and see what they come up with. Let me know.

Books: Core is preferred, but a feat or two from Completes is usually fine. Of course, something simple is preferred since he hasn't played in a decade or so.

Thanks!

Offline Solo

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Offline Cannotthink

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2012, 05:00:14 PM »
If you can get use out of Unearthed Arcana, a martial rogue could work for what you're going for. All the feats to flesh out fighting styles, all the skills to sneak around, trapfinding. Just costs a couple points of BAB and some HP over a fighter.

Offline kitcik

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2012, 05:43:38 PM »
2E you could be "multiclass" which is in some ways like gestalt.

In any case, besides martial rogue or ranger/rogue, as suggested above, two other possibilities are swordsage or factotum.

Offline kitep

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2012, 06:11:00 PM »
As Kitcik said, multiclassing is VERY different in 2E vs 3E.  In 2E, it was basically lose a level and gestalt.

You mention 85 skill points needed.  What level?  What's his INT?  Is elf necessary, or can he play a human for the extra skill point/level?

If he's going to hide the rogue, he's going to miss out on sneak attack - a big thing in 3E.  He'll also miss out on using evasion.  If he's ok with skipping sneak attack and evasion, the easiest thing might be to take rogue as the 1st level (for the extra skill points) and then go with fighter from then on.  Buy a lot of magic trinkets that add to his skill rolls.

I think there's a feat that makes all skills as class skills, instead of paying cross-class prices for them.  I want to say "educated" but that's not it.

Good luck!

Offline Solo

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2012, 06:12:00 PM »
You want to say "Able Learner".
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2012, 06:18:40 PM »
The player needs to stop thinking of "thief" and "rogue" being the same thing. Dodging a fireball or striking an enemy in a weak point will not get you arrested for being a thief. Most guards and police officers are rogues (because fighters suck at spotting trespassers or forgeries). Likewise it's possible to steal things without having rogue levels, or even without sneaking around. Class is an entirely OOC concept, and will not affect how people react to you; only the way your character acts will.

Maybe it would help to hand him a factotum? Also there's a barbarian ACF called "Trapkiller" that can smash locks and such. Both can be found in Dungeonscape.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 06:34:07 PM by Prime32 »

Offline muktidata

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 08:44:53 PM »
I think the most straightforward build for him would be what's called a Swifthunter character. Basically, you take a few levels of a class called Scout and then just go up as a Ranger.

You'll need:
Player's Handbook (Ranger)
Complete Adventurer (Scout)
Complete Scoundrel (Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish)

Here is a handbook that has a compilation of useful information for Swift Hunters. The only problem I see is that Scouts do not gain Slight of Hand in their Skill list. To compensate for this, you could have him take a level of Human Paragon from the book Unearthed Arcana or the SRD (what I linked). That would let him choose a skill (Sleight of Hand for all his pick-pocketing needs) and have it remain a class skill for his entire career.

Based on your guidelines, I think this fits best.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 08:51:16 PM by muktidata »
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Offline kitep

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 09:15:04 PM »
You want to say "Able Learner".

Yep, that's the one.  Thanks.

@OP: it's in Races of the Dragon, p 150, and here: Able Learner

Offline kitep

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 09:16:22 PM »
Most guards and police officers are rogues (because fighters suck at spotting trespassers or forgeries).

Awesome - I never thought of it like that   :clap

Offline Baran

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2012, 11:22:56 PM »
I had considered swordsage and factotum, but the problem is that the DM has zero familiarity with ToB and Dungeonscape. He didn't meant 85 skill points, but an 85 point buy (counting from zero). I'll bring up the martial rogue and Able Learner at least.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Fighter/rogue hybrids
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 12:08:00 AM »
Another potentially useful feat is Jack of All Trades from Complete Adventurer.  It'll allow any skill to be used untrained, even if you don't have ranks in it.  Well, unless the skill has no checks like Speak Language of course.

Here is the martial rogue variant in case you don't have Unearthed Arcana handy.