Author Topic: Martial Adepts without ToB  (Read 4100 times)

Offline Cyclone Joker

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Martial Adepts without ToB
« on: August 09, 2012, 05:55:45 AM »
ToB is an awesome book, but many DMs ban it for no real reason. So, I've decided to make a good melee character without ToB. Now, this sort of thing has been done before, but I feel most of them, like the Horizon tripper, while having power similar to ToB, lack the options and feel of ToB. So, here's my attempt to create a Martial Adept-ish character, without ToB:

THE BUILD(Since people were unable to locate it without bold caps)
Books used: Core, Complete Warrior, Complete Champion, Unearthed Arcana, Player's Handbook II, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Races of the Wild
(click to show/hide)
ADAPTION:The easiest thing to do is cur PBS and Woodland Archer. They were put in there because I was running out of ideas. You could replace two fighter levels, or the barbarian levels, with Ranger Levels. TWF could be useful, and the skills are nice.Crafty Hunter was added because I felt to ability to pick up a bow would be useful, but it is totally unnecessary. Giantbane was added because I felt things like Dragons are threatening at high levels, and it seemed a useful way to handle them. The AC feats are also easy to cut, but I quite like them, mostly for the aesthetics, and bastard sword was chosen because of its synergy with the charging feats, but they can be changed. Plus, of course, any ToB additions are helpful, but kinda defeat the purpose of the build. The Mageslayer line would be useful, as long as transparency is not in place. Basically, everything after level 8 is flexible, though Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit are highly recommended.

If flaws aren't okay, I recommend simply pushing everything back and cutting the archery feats, which were mostly filler.

Now, this build isn't as directly powerful as a lot of melee builds, but it's quite flexible. It can charge very well, though not as well as a dedicated charger. It can trip reasonably well, with Expansion, Robilar's Gambit, and Karmic Strike, though not as well as a Jack build, and it ain't a terrible archer. It can get quite decent AC, too. Overall, it'd be quite rare for situations to occur that it wouldn't be relatively useful in, and it has enough options that it captures the ToB feel relatively well. This build's real weakness, beyond saves, is a real lack of hard power. To remedy this, I recommend using rogue levels to max UMD, grab a bunch of wands, and use a haversack and utility belt. WBL-Mancy is your friend.

So thoughts? Improvements? This is still quite rough, so any input will be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 08:50:34 PM by Cyclone Joker »

Offline kitcik

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 10:32:17 AM »
Just be a cleric and, for fluff purposes, limit the spells you cast to buffs and other things that are similar to maneuvers.

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 11:16:27 AM »
Rogue -> Monk -> Ardent -> Telflamar Shadowlord.  A few useful buffs and debuffs emulates a swordsage quite well + shadowpounce. :P

Paladin->Sorcerer->Swiftblade

Psychic warriors can have a TOB feeling too I believe.  Never played one though.

Races of stone feats: Hurl Ally -> Hurl Enemy and Knockback are fun battlefield control options.

Tactical feats in general are nice for this.

Basically any gish with the right spell selection.

Equivalencies list:
Wraithstrike - Emerald Razor
Ruin Delver's Fortune - Save Maneuvers
Haste/Swift Haste - That level 1 maneuver that gives an extra attack.
That spell that allows you to detect spellcasting near you and counter as an immediate action - Iron Heart Surge
Discharging Heart of Earth - Stone bones? The DR10/Ad one
etc. etc.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:22:47 AM by Rebel7284 »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 12:39:04 PM »
Basically any gish with the right spell selection.
I DMed a campaign which had a culture with battle sorcerer schools which were kind of like the schools in ToB, way before the ToB was ever published. I loosely based them off the martial arts schools of the ancient East, as lifted from old Kung Fu movies. I had one PC who played one. It was pretty fun.
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 03:35:36 PM »
Gishes totally defeat the purpose of the build. The purpose of the build was a mundane(Mostly-ish) melee character with the options like those of ToB. So, any input on the actual build?

Offline kitcik

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 03:52:00 PM »
I can't argue with that since it is your "purpose" but let me just say that the difference between maneuvers and spells is just fluff (plus the fact that spell lists are generally more versatile & powerful than maneuver lists of course).

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 04:28:22 PM »
Gishes totally defeat the purpose of the build. The purpose of the build was a mundane(Mostly-ish) melee character with the options like those of ToB. So, any input on the actual build?

Magic items to emulate spells then.

It is pretty much impossible to create the same amount of options as a TOB character as a TOB character will have access to the same feats PLUS maneuvers on top...

Also, there are dozens of ways to build a TOB character.  Lockdown crusader is very different from Tiger Claw Warblade which is very different from an unarmed swordsage.

edit:
Here are a few flexible melee characters you may appreciate.

1. Totemist or Totemist/Barbarian/PrC that combines the two.  Does a good job emulating a tiger claw warblade and can re-invest essentia for flexibility.

2. Goliath Barbarian/Fighter with Mountain Rage, Knockback, Standstill, Improved Trip, and intimidating rage with Zhentarim fighter sub-levels.  Does battlefield control like a crusader but can also fear-lock.  Also Knight 4 would be nice if alignment issues are fixed.  Can grab a healing belt to also heal like a crusader....

3. Factotum is the most flexible class in the game, but does get a few spell like abilities per day.

4. Invisible fist variant Monk to get invisibility every 2 rounds and possibly blink after some levels.  Then go into better classes like rogue (sneak attack is nice when you turn invisible.)  Maybe Horizon Walker for Dimention Door for more mobility. Obviously a weaker swordsage.

5. Binder
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 05:05:19 PM by Rebel7284 »

Offline muktidata

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 04:25:06 PM »
Why not:

Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Barbarian 2/Ranger 3/Chaos Martial Monk 2/Warrior 2/Rokugan Samurai 2/Sword of Righteousness 3

You'll be like a Fighter, but better! That's like 30 or so feats at level 20! Oh, boy, and with your last 3 levels you get a sweet PRESTIGE CLAAAAASS!
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Offline lans

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 06:46:32 PM »
Your also guaranteed a cool sword  :lol

Offline midnight_v

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2012, 03:53:57 PM »
Quote
It is pretty much impossible to create the same amount of options as a TOB character as a TOB character will have access to the same feats PLUS maneuvers on top...

Also, there are dozens of ways to build a TOB character.  Lockdown crusader is very different from Tiger Claw Warblade which is very different from an unarmed swordsage.
+1
to both of those points.

I can only think you're going to be looking at very heavily prc stacking, but hell honestly, half of the good melee prc's are actually "Gish".
There was that "A lil Lock build for you" but even it used Martial Study/Stance for thickett of blades.

I think you're kinda stuck with only a few tricks.
Charging,Fearlocking,Archery,Karmic/Gamit,maybe shadow pouncing, shapeshifting, (partially charged wands?), and MAYBE perma-concealment.

 Those are most of the non-magic melee tools, I can think of off hand. I guess you can throw sneak attack and craven in there too.

  I note you use Psionics in your build. You can get some decent effects by using psywar or psion, ilithidslayer, or Melee warrior X + Warmind. I mean if you want a compendium of the best NON-TOB builds pre-tob, there certainly were some awesome ones, but MOST of them were really good at doing 1 thing, while the TOB classes can do MORE than one thing pretty damn well.

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Offline lans

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2012, 08:57:36 PM »
You also have Boomerangs, and maybe something like dire flail smash

Offline midnight_v

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Re: Martial Adepts without ToB
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 08:37:46 AM »
There was also the killer melee gnome, now that I think about it "I may be tiny, but you're dead" and that only requires like what, 1 first level spell?
"Disentegrate...gust of wind. Can we please get back to saving the world now?"