Nerfed planar travel

[sirpercival]

Garryl just pointed something out which I think bears mentioning.

RAW, plane shift only works from the Material Plane.  You can't even get back.

[DonQuixote]

The elemental warrior prestige class (Planar Handbook) gets the ability "to use plane shift once per day to reach their chosen Elemental Plane (or from that Elemental Plane to the Material Plane)."  Ignoring the poor structure of the parenthetical, that gives us at least one example of it working in both directions.

Genies are also capable of plane shifting to "any of the elemental planes, the Astral Plane, or the Material Plane."  However, the ability notes that "It is otherwise similar to the spell of the same name," which can be read such that the spell wouldn't normally let you access the Material Plane.

Gate still works for two-way travel between any two planes, right?

[linklord231]

You move yourself or some other creature to another plane of existence or alternate dimension. If several willing persons link hands in a circle, as many as eight can be affected by the plane shift at the same time. Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination.

Note: Plane shift transports creatures instantaneously and then ends. The creatures need to find other means if they are to travel back.

Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures.

Where does it imply that it only works one way?  Seems like it should work either way, as long as you have a focus attuned to the Material plane. 

[sirpercival]

You move yourself or some other creature to another plane of existence or alternate dimension. If several willing persons link hands in a circle, as many as eight can be affected by the plane shift at the same time. Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination.

Note: Plane shift transports creatures instantaneously and then ends. The creatures need to find other means if they are to travel back.

Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures.

Where does it imply that it only works one way?  Seems like it should work either way, as long as you have a focus attuned to the Material plane.

Emphasis mine.

[linklord231]

I read that as "If you are casting this on the Material plane, you might appear far away from where you wanted to appear on your target plane. [If you are not casting this from the Material plane, you appear where you intended.]"

[Unbeliever]

Or, alternatively, you can reach any other plane from the Material Plane.  But, if you're on another plane, you may not be able to reach all the others using this spell. 

E.g., if you're on the Elemental Plane of Earth you might not be able to reach the Negative Energy Plane via Plane Shift. 

[sirpercival]

Or, alternatively, you can reach any other plane from the Material Plane.  But, if you're on another plane, you may not be able to reach all the others using this spell. 

E.g., if you're on the Elemental Plane of Earth you might not be able to reach the Negative Energy Plane via Plane Shift.

This is my thinking...but these rules aren't defined anywhere.

[phaedrusxy]

Or, alternatively, you can reach any other plane from the Material Plane.  But, if you're on another plane, you may not be able to reach all the others using this spell. 

E.g., if you're on the Elemental Plane of Earth you might not be able to reach the Negative Energy Plane via Plane Shift.

This is my thinking...but these rules aren't defined anywhere.

Wow... I think this would make a great house rule. You can't plane shift to a plane not adjacent/co-terminous to the plane you're currently on. It makes sense both from a fluff and mechanical perspective. It also explains why you can't use Plane Shift in Eberron to reach "distant" planes, without having to even create any extra rules.

Letting Gate, Wish, and other 9th level spells (and above) bypass this, as well as specific abilities spelled out to do so, would also make sense, I think.

It would make planar travel potentially a lot more risky, as you'd have to stop off at all the planes between your departure and destination planes.

[linklord231]

Or, alternatively, you can reach any other plane from the Material Plane.  But, if you're on another plane, you may not be able to reach all the others using this spell. 

E.g., if you're on the Elemental Plane of Earth you might not be able to reach the Negative Energy Plane via Plane Shift.

This is my thinking...but these rules aren't defined anywhere.

Wow... I think this would make a great house rule. You can't plane shift to a plane not adjacent/co-terminous to the plane you're currently on. It makes sense both from a fluff and mechanical perspective. It also explains why you can't use Plane Shift in Eberron to reach "distant" planes, without having to even create any extra rules.

Letting Gate, Wish, and other 9th level spells (and above) bypass this, as well as specific abilities spelled out to do so, would also make sense, I think.

It would make planar travel potentially a lot more risky, as you'd have to stop off at all the planes between your departure and destination planes.

So you could hop from the Material to the Far Realms in 1 casting, but to get back you'd need 4ish?  Is "The Abyss" one plane, or do you have to pass through each layer above you on the way out? 

[phaedrusxy]

So you could hop from the Material to the Far Realms in 1 casting, but to get back you'd need 4ish?  Is "The Abyss" one plane, or do you have to pass through each layer above you on the way out?

Why would it take 4 to get back? I guess I don't know enough about the Far Realm. Also... why would someone want to go there, other than the odd time flow thing?

And that's a good question on the Abyss... It would sure as hell make it a lot more dangerous (and make the whole "infinite layers" thing sink in), even to planar travelers, if all the layers counted as their own plane.

This should probably be continued in a homebrew thread, or something, though, as I don't think that's how it is supposed to work in the RAW.

[sirpercival]

Agreed   It's another example of a badly-worded spell, though.  Phae, would you like to collaborate on the homebrew?

[littha]

So you could hop from the Material to the Far Realms in 1 casting, but to get back you'd need 4ish?  Is "The Abyss" one plane, or do you have to pass through each layer above you on the way out?

Why would it take 4 to get back? I guess I don't know enough about the Far Realm. Also... why would someone want to go there, other than the odd time flow thing?

And that's a good question on the Abyss... It would sure as hell make it a lot more dangerous (and make the whole "infinite layers" thing sink in), even to planar travelers, if all the layers counted as their own plane.

This should probably be continued in a homebrew thread, or something, though, as I don't think that's how it is supposed to work in the RAW.

I once had a DM run an interesting homebrew rule on this kind of thing. He had a "mishap" chance that he rolled secretly (apparantly 1%) if you tried to go from the material plane to one of the outer planes that represented a deity or other cosmic being messing with your spell. We once wanted to go to one of the upper planes (dont remember which) but ended up in the realm of Malcanthet in the abyss... and didn't notice we got it wrong for quite a while...

[Unbeliever]

Or, alternatively, you can reach any other plane from the Material Plane.  But, if you're on another plane, you may not be able to reach all the others using this spell. 

E.g., if you're on the Elemental Plane of Earth you might not be able to reach the Negative Energy Plane via Plane Shift.

This is my thinking...but these rules aren't defined anywhere.

I don't do a lot of plane-hopping in most of my campaigns, and when we do it tends to be a customized cosmology.  So, my sense of the rules of this are from 3E adaptations of the Planescape setting, which I think had some rules on this. 

I'm glad to see the idea seems interesting to people.  That's one of the joys of D&D -- you find things in random places that end up being interesting.

I don't think you have to move this to the homebrew forum if you want to continue it.  A lot of people (like me) will find it buried there, and this is a bit less fiddly/mechanical and more "hmmm, what would be interesting for campaigns?" than most things.  That being said, Plane Shift itself isn't the greatest adventure-creating ability in the world.  Compare it to, for instance, the 3 Prime Evils having to get together to create a portal to the Burning Hells.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

You move yourself or some other creature to another plane of existence or alternate dimension. If several willing persons link hands in a circle, as many as eight can be affected by the plane shift at the same time. Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination.

Note: Plane shift transports creatures instantaneously and then ends. ** The creatures need to find other means if they are to travel back.

Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures.

Where does it imply that it only works one way?  Seems like it should work either way, as long as you have a focus attuned to the Material plane.

Emphasis mine.

** Niice.

Psi Plane Shift is the same.
Wish still works.
Limited Wish "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects."
Dream Travel.

[Unbeliever]

You move yourself or some other creature to another plane of existence or alternate dimension. If several willing persons link hands in a circle, as many as eight can be affected by the plane shift at the same time. Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination.

Note: Plane shift transports creatures instantaneously and then ends. ** The creatures need to find other means if they are to travel back.

Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures.

Where does it imply that it only works one way?  Seems like it should work either way, as long as you have a focus attuned to the Material plane.

Emphasis mine.

** Niice.

Still completely ambiguous at best.  "Other means" might just as well be referring to another casting of Plane Shift rather than any and all uses of the spell.  I find that the more natural reading in context, where it seems that it's just clarifying the ramifications of the instantaneous duration. 

[Cyclone Joker]

Another possible reading is simply that you are only off by 5-500 miles when leaving the material plane. And "other means" could be another casting, given the reference to its duration.

Either way, poorly worded. Do we expect any different?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Idk what Gygax and Friends were thinking,
but perhaps it was: a high level party has
cleared an area, and anything they'd
want to fight, has run away for good. 
Cast a Plane Shift and go chase Devils
... for the glory of Asgard (or whatever).
2e Planescape expanded the "setting" massively.

3e high level party should reach a point
that the locals direct them to the biggest
Metropolis.  You know the one with the
level 20 Wizard who knows more about
the party than the party does ?!