Crusader, Hellreaver, Deepstone Sentinel build

[Beaker]

I have an idea for build using the Crusader as the base. In the game I am currently playing we are all lvl 4 right now (Started at 1), my last character just got smooshed by 4 Mimics. Currently we have; Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Druid, Beguiler, and a Fighter. We need a meat shield, the fighter is going more for maneuverability, wearing only light armor. Also the party doesn't really have a leader and I think this guy could fill that spot too.

I went through most of the Handbooks for just about every base character class, found the Shadow Pounce Warlock nifty but the DM wouldn't allow it. Thusly the idea for a Crusader.

I have access to almost all of the 3.5 books, but no pathfinder. Our DM would like to take us to lvl 20, maybe beyond, and has hinted at sending us into Hell.

Level progression:

1 - 5 Crusader
6 - 10 Hellreaver
11-15 Deepstone Sentinel
16 - 20 Hellreaver

My current lvl is 4, here is how my character looks thus far.

Race: Dream Dwarf
Stats: STR - 18, DEX - 11, CON - 17, INT - 12, WIS - 11, CHA - 14
Feats: 1 - Extra Granted Maneuver, 3 - Power Attack
Equip: Mwk Full Plate, Mwk Greatsword, Mwk Warhammer, Mwk Heavy Steel Shield
Maneuvers: Mountain Hammer, Stone Vise, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Charging Minotaur, Battle Leaders Charge
Stances: Iron Guards Glare, Bolstering Voice

Primarily I will be using the Greatsword with the Warhammer and Shield for defensive if needed. Just for fun I built a pair of Magebread Dogs as pets, I don't expect them to be all that effective in combat, more so done for role playing.

I think he will be a very effective demon slayer with some crowd control tossed in from the sentinel.

The way combat plays out (In my head, this will never work in practice, lol). Charge in hit the big guy, vice the caster, use douse the flames to help get my comrades into position, and use Iron Guards Glare to try keep aggro on myself.

What I need from you guys/girls is help determining what feats I should take and and magic items/weapons I should be gunning for.

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I will update as I figure out more.

[linklord231]

Someone on another board recommended this:

Crusader 5 / Hellreaver 5 / Binder 1 / Crusader +9 with Extra Granted Maneuver.

It's a tank that can heal people while beating people up, indefinitely:
Every time you hit someone you provide 2 points of healing (or 4 with Aura of Triumph, which also works off any ally's attack).
Every time you hit someone with a maneuver you provide extra healing of 150 points, 25 points or 25 points to all within 30 feet.
Every round as a swift action you can provide another 20 points of healing.

You can do this indefinitely, as long as there are enemies to fight. Whenever you run low on allies that need healing, you can use a different maneuver or your Holy Fury ability, doing more damage and less healing.

The Binder level is there for Naberius's Faster Ability Healing ability to negate the Con damage from using Heroic Sacrifice to refill your holy fury points.  This can also be accomplished with a Strongheart Vest soulmeld (from Magic of Incarnum), but you'd have to either dip a level of Incarnate and take the Bonus Essentia feat, or take the Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) feat and the Bonus Essentia feat. 
If you want, you can trade out some Crusader levels at the end for something else that progresses Devoted Spirit maneuvers, but I can't think of any off the top of my head that would be better.
Remember, any more than 6 levels in a non-Tome of Battle class means you won't get 9th level maneuvers before epic levels. 

If you do decide to take all 10 levels of Hellreaver, I recommend going Crusader 5/Hellreaver 10/Deepstone Sentinal (or more Crusader) 5.  This allows you to get better maneuvers known (you'd end with 1 8th level maneuver known instead of 1 4th level maneuver known).


Also, 500th post.   

[Empirate]

I'd do away with the non-reach weapons. Your party needs a tank? Get thyself a Guisarme (and Armor Spikes), an Enlarge Person spell or potion, and keep up that Thicket of Blades stance (from level 5 only, obviously). Combat Reflexes and a good Dex is key, you might want to shave off a bit of Cha and even Str for better Dex - yes, it's that important. I'd also go with regular PHB Dwarf instead of Dream Dwarf, so your Dex doesn't suffer. Cha only looks important to Crusaders on paper - it's really not much of a big deal. A bit of Will save, and a bit less effect on a few Devoted Spirit things is a small price to pay for extra AoOs per round. Another must have is the Stand Still feat.

All this is doable at level 5. Congratulations, you're now a 45' diameter "once you enter, you cannot leave or even move closer to me, and you get whacked every round" mobile area effect. All that comes after is just icing. You're already the greatest mundane tank imaginable. However, note that pure tanking is a job that's harder to do and less needed the higher level you go.

[Beaker]

Ok I changed my race to a regular dwarf so the stat block looks like this now.
STR: 18
DEX: 13
CON: 17
INT: 12
WIS: 11
CHA: 12

If I set up my level progresion like this, will it work?
Crusader 4/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 10/ Deepstone 5

I would go for the Enlarge Person idea, however our DM doesn't like giving us the chance for AoOs. He almost never moves the monsters once the encounter has started.

[Garryl]

I would go for the Enlarge Person idea, however our DM doesn't like giving us the chance for AoOs. He almost never moves the monsters once the encounter has started.

The great thing about having reach is that enemies will either provoke an AoO coming to you, or sit still letting you pummel them from outside their reach. Combine the Thicket of Blades stance (prevents them from sneaking close with 5' steps and Tumble) and something to stop movement (Stand Still and Improved Strip are the classics) for best results.

[darqueseid]

I would go for the Enlarge Person idea, however our DM doesn't like giving us the chance for AoOs. He almost never moves the monsters once the encounter has started.

The great thing about having reach is that enemies will either provoke an AoO coming to you, or sit still letting you pummel them from outside their reach. Combine the Thicket of Blades stance (prevents them from sneaking close with 5' steps and Tumble) and something to stop movement (Stand Still and Improved Strip are the classics) for best results.

Oooh oooh! I want the improved Strip feat!!!!  you say it helps stop movement, does that mean you take your clothes off so seductively that the enemies just stop in their tracks??!?  it sounds like an awesome feat! 

[Cannotthink]

I would go for the Enlarge Person idea, however our DM doesn't like giving us the chance for AoOs. He almost never moves the monsters once the encounter has started.

The great thing about having reach is that enemies will either provoke an AoO coming to you, or sit still letting you pummel them from outside their reach. Combine the Thicket of Blades stance (prevents them from sneaking close with 5' steps and Tumble) and something to stop movement (Stand Still and Improved Strip are the classics) for best results.

Oooh oooh! I want the improved Strip feat!!!!  you say it helps stop movement, does that mean you take your clothes off so seductively that the enemies just stop in their tracks??!?  it sounds like an awesome feat! 

Man and beast alike will fall at your feet beckoning you to spank them hard for being bad. Many will submit, but the masochists will stand up and say "thank you, may I please have another".

[darqueseid]

I would go for the Enlarge Person idea, however our DM doesn't like giving us the chance for AoOs. He almost never moves the monsters once the encounter has started.

The great thing about having reach is that enemies will either provoke an AoO coming to you, or sit still letting you pummel them from outside their reach. Combine the Thicket of Blades stance (prevents them from sneaking close with 5' steps and Tumble) and something to stop movement (Stand Still and Improved Strip are the classics) for best results.

Oooh oooh! I want the improved Strip feat!!!!  you say it helps stop movement, does that mean you take your clothes off so seductively that the enemies just stop in their tracks??!?  it sounds like an awesome feat! 

Man and beast alike will fall at your feet beckoning you to spank them hard for being bad. Many will submit, but the masochists will stand up and say "thank you, may I please have another".

and when they stand up they provoke an attack of opportunity, wherein you can improved Strip them once again!

[linklord231]

Why do you need all 10 levels of Hellreaver?  Honestly, the maneuvers you get from Crusader are better than most of the abilities Hellreaver gets you, especially past level 5.  You don't even benefit from the extra Holy Surge points, because you can refill them every 3rd round at no cost. 

Regarding the AoO thing, there are plenty of ways to generate AoOs that don't rely on the monsters moving around.  As other people mentioned, Thicket of Blades makes any sort of movement provoke, even 5' steps.  So on your turn, attack then 5' step away.  On their turn they have to move up to hit you, which provokes an attack.  Improved Trip allows you to turn your AoO into a trip attack, which, if successful, gets you your free attack and forces them to provoke yet another AoO when they stand up.  Robilar's Gambit makes it easier for enemies to hit you, and makes their attacks do more damage (which you don't care about because you heal it back so fast anyway), but every attack they make provokes an AoO from you.  Karmic Strike works the similarly, and they stack with each other.  Defensive Sweep makes enemies provoke AoOs for not moving.  Stack as many of these as you can onto a Crusader/Warblade base, and you get what's called a Lockdown or Crackdown build. 

Finally, that's a lot of odd numbered ability scores you have there.  Is it possible to drop Wis to a 10 and bump either Dex or Con? 

[Empirate]

Those scores look like they've been rolled, so I'd assume they're fixed. I'd still swap Cha and Wis, but meh, it's OK this way. Just increase Dex at lvl 4, Con at lvl 8, and get thyself some Gloves of Dexterity ASAP. Even at Dex 14, you're looking at three AoOs/round, which should be plenty at low levels. When do you really fight huge mook hordes (and have no AoE on your caster to take care of them)? However, high Dex is important for initiative, as well. You want to go where you can lock down the opposition before they can move where they want. Especially if your DM doesn't like opponents to move and generate AoOs after combat has started: if you can run out in front of the rest of your group and lock down half the opposition, your comrades are free to move and attack the ones they want once it's their turn. So high Dex is really a must have for greater number of AoOs, armor class, and initiative. Also, Improved Initiative and an Eager weapon later on.

[Beaker]

Yep rolled scores, so I can't drop one a bit lower to raise another.

I don't need all 10 lvls of Hellreaver, but if I am going to be venturing into hell I thought a one shot one kill evil outsider ability would be kind of a good idea.

[phaedrusxy]

Also, Improved Initiative and an Eager weapon Warning armor spikes later on.

FTFY Eager is +2 to initiative. Warning is +5 for the same cost.

If you can stomach the cheese, get this put on a piece of ammunition (which you never use), instead, so you can get it at 1/50th the normal cost. 

[darqueseid]

Also, Improved Initiative and an Eager weapon Warning armor spikes later on.

FTFY Eager is +2 to initiative. Warning is +5 for the same cost.

If you can stomach the cheese, get this put on a piece of ammunition (which you never use), instead, so you can get it at 1/50th the normal cost. 

I thought you had to enchant all 50 in the process of making this?

Plus, don't they  stack anyway? so get both

[phaedrusxy]

Also, Improved Initiative and an Eager weapon Warning armor spikes later on.

FTFY Eager is +2 to initiative. Warning is +5 for the same cost.

If you can stomach the cheese, get this put on a piece of ammunition (which you never use), instead, so you can get it at 1/50th the normal cost. 

I thought you had to enchant all 50 in the process of making this?

Plus, don't they  stack anyway? so get both

Yeah, but the guy selling them isn't required to sell 50 at once. 

[Beaker]

What book is the Warning enhancement from? Nevermind, I was looking for an armor enhancement not a weapon. 

[Jackinthegreen]

Magic Item Compendium has it on page 46.  I'm not sure where it was first printed, if indeed it wasn't first printed in the MIC.

[Endarire]

Deepstone Sentiel feels 'meh' to me.  Crusader gets you a greater variety of maneuvers and increases your maneuverability.  Both are important.  That's why 'stand still' tanks don't work that well in 3.5; being able to have superior mobility matters lots.  Like Hood.

[Tonymitsu]

I found Deepstone Sentinel to be EXCEEDINGLY poor at the whole tanking thing.

Note two things:

1) Your inability to move

2) Your inability to affect anything that's not touching the ground.

[Empirate]

How are you unable to move? You can just be a regular tank with your optimal feat/weapon/gear selection. Whenever foes ARE touching the ground, you move into position lightning-quick  -  and THEN you make sure nothing moves away from you, ever, while dying a painful slow death. Deepstone Sentinel isn't worse for that than anything else. As long as you don't stick to the ground as if you HAD TO, when in fact it just gives you a few interesting options, you're good. Make sure to load up on non-earthbound versatility, of course, don't put all your money on that card!

[Tonymitsu]

The problem is the Mountain Fortress Stance. They say right in the description the entire class revolves around it, and they aren't lying.

Once you enter this stance if you move more than 5 feet in any round you lose the benefits of it. Naturally this precludes starting combat in this stance since overland travel at 5 feet per round is beyond impractical. It also only affects squares adjacent to you, as opposed to a Knight who can make every square he threatens difficult terrain, and go wherever he wants. Forcing Balance checks is pretty good, but not something you can afford to build around, especially since it affects your allies as well. I guess the biggest problem I have with this stance is that by itself it doesn't provide any more battlefield control than a Grease spell

Crashing Mountain Juggernaut is terrible. As a full round action you force a Balance check immediately on all adjacent creatures (including allies) and you can charge one of them too if you like. You also end your stance... completely... as in not just Mountain Fortress, but also the Stone Dragon stance you gave up to get to it. Which means two full turns to get it back (one to enter a Stone Dragon stance, and another to swap it for Mountain Fortress). And per the description you can't use it on the same round you turned Mountain Fortress on, and vice versa once you get the next ability, which is:

Having two Stone Dragon stances isn't a bad deal... except one of them has to be Mountain Fortress, and none of the other Stone Dragon stances are good at convincing monsters you are a preferable target to your allies.

Stone Curse is similarly gimped against both flying creatures and ranged attackers. And it's useless unless the enemy is already attacking you to begin with. And it also doesn't hinder the opponents ability to continue beating face on anything that's not you and might be right next to him in the slightest (like a Crusader can).

Dragon's Tooth would be great if it wasn't a standard action, seeing as you typically have nothing to do with your move. And even then the ability to create a 10 ft tall by 5 ft wide pillar has numerous uses. It's a great utility feature for anyone, including tanks, and the one decent thing about this class.

The final ability is a once per encounter Reflex negates vs anyone with a Ring of Evasion. Not terrible, but not that great either. Knocking someone who is 60 feet away prone is fine, but loses effectiveness if someone isn't there to wallop him when he gets up.


So it's not a terrible class by itself, but compared to Knight and Crusader in almost all aspects, who can do his job just as well without being restricted to the ground, you're simply left with, "Why bother?"