Author Topic: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?  (Read 21472 times)

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2012, 12:58:54 AM »
Then don't use either of those, crimony! Sorry I wasn't sensitive enough to do a full study on the origin of each word I suggested. I guess I'll prepare the scourge and coarse salt for my punishment then.

Well, I didn't quite mean it like that.  It's just that, when I looked them up, that's all I found.  I didn't find another meaning.

This feels vaguely relevant to the topic at hand.

I'd actually love if we had fourteen standards.  My problem is that I don't see any genre-wide terms.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2012, 06:08:19 AM »
This feels vaguely relevant to the topic at hand.

I'd actually love if we had fourteen standards.  My problem is that I don't see any genre-wide terms.

This +1.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2012, 12:18:20 PM »
Bump.

Seriously, so far my favorite two were Kurashu's.

But, yeah, any more thoughts people?
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2012, 07:37:26 PM »
Yeah, Kurashu's ideas were definitely good ones.

The strong contenders--at least to my mind--are Hexenreiter and Wiedźmin.  The only idea that I've been able to come up with myself was "Thaumahos," which doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.  I think "Astrakuten" would roughly get us "the physical being who wields a supernatural weapon," but that one may not fit the languages of all campaign settings.  It's also probably cringe-worthy to anyone who speaks Sanskrit.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline SneeR

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2012, 03:31:22 AM »
I took the advice given previously about just another language's words from veekie and got this.

Magus Bellator=Sorcerer Warrior.
Chop it up?
Mabellator. Magullator.  Magtor. Bellatus.

Medeis Pugnator=Magic Fighter
Mednator. Mugnate? Magnator.

I personally like Mugnate, Mednate, or Magnator.

EDIT:
Why haven't you all more closely considered portmanteaus?
Sword Magus=Sworgus, Sword Mage=Swage
Fighting Wizard=Wizer
Sorcererous bowman= Sorbow

Sure, these examples sound a bit tacky, but that's how people talk: they make silly names to insult and ostracize a group, but then they take their own terms seriously.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 03:35:59 AM by SneeR »
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2012, 10:42:22 AM »
I took the advice given previously about just another language's words from veekie and got this.
Magus Bellator=Sorcerer Warrior.
Chop it up?

Mab. As in Queen Mab.

Fitting at least for Hexblades.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2012, 11:47:53 AM »
Quote
Sword Mage=Swage

Makes me think of Swayze, as in Patrick Swayze.  It amuses me.   :p

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2012, 08:11:30 PM »
The Highlander movie + tv series is
somewhat well known.  Almost entirely
sword+fist play, with lots of mysticism and
divine intentions.  The Kurgan is the
Barbarian version.

Thor is variously portrayed over the
centuries.  But in every case, he'd rather
fight than use his (demi-)godly magic ;
excepting his nifty hammer of course.
Valkyries used to be a standard role
in '80s video games.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Hans-E

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2012, 01:22:57 PM »
I'm late to this party, and forgive me if I'm missing something, but I'm a bit confused as to what, exactly, we are looking for.

Are we looking for terms to be used in-game, names for homebrew classes, or some sort of generic name for the general classification of mage/warriors, to be used when talking about homebrew classes and multiclass builds?

If it's an in-game word you are looking for, it's always fun to flavor worlds with all sorts of different language, but we don't need to debate a generic term.  In my game world, no one goes around calling each other by their rules-based class names.  An in-game knight may be, on his character sheet, pretty much any class or combination of classes that can be squeezed into heavy armor and plopped on a horse.

If you are looking for names of homebrew classes, it seems searching out exotic words is a good idea, just to avoid clashing with other classes. But, again, I don't understand the debate... agreeing on one name defeats the purpose.

If we are talking about a generic term, I don't see anything wrong with Gish.  Maybe it has a specific racial etymology, but that no longer seems to constrain it. The fact that it isn't tied to fantasy literature or a game-world term doesn't seem important if you are using it  in this fashion.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2012, 03:22:43 PM »
I'm late to this party, and forgive me if I'm missing something, but I'm a bit confused as to what, exactly, we are looking for.

Are we looking for terms to be used in-game, names for homebrew classes, or some sort of generic name for the general classification of mage/warriors, to be used when talking about homebrew classes and multiclass builds?
To me, it is the first two.
Quote
If it's an in-game word you are looking for, it's always fun to flavor worlds with all sorts of different language, but we don't need to debate a generic term.  In my game world, no one goes around calling each other by their rules-based class names.  An in-game knight may be, on his character sheet, pretty much any class or combination of classes that can be squeezed into heavy armor and plopped on a horse.
That is the point, there aren't enough terms.
This feels vaguely relevant to the topic at hand.

I'd actually love if we had fourteen standards.  My problem is that I don't see any genre-wide terms.

This +1.
Quote
If you are looking for names of homebrew classes, it seems searching out exotic words is a good idea, just to avoid clashing with other classes. But, again, I don't understand the debate... agreeing on one name defeats the purpose.
The only "Debate" thus far has been about whether there was a point to this at all. As far as the research goes, it would kind of help the people who do that to have some help some times. Even if they didn't use anything thought up here, it would at least help to get things going.
Quote
If we are talking about a generic term, I don't see anything wrong with Gish.  Maybe it has a specific racial etymology, but that no longer seems to constrain it. The fact that it isn't tied to fantasy literature or a game-world term doesn't seem important if you are using it  in this fashion.
The problem was the in-game use, and the fact that people would not call the random Elven master of both sword and magic a "Gish", due to that words connotations.
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Offline Halinn

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2012, 03:52:49 PM »
The problem was the in-game use, and the fact that people would not call the random Elven master of both sword and magic a "Gish", due to that words connotations.
"Aw hell, 'e does the same thing those gish fellas do, y'know, fireballs and swords. Bugger if'n I can pronounce what them elfs call 'em."

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2012, 10:51:58 PM »
In my game world, no one goes around calling each other by their rules-based class names.  An in-game knight may be, on his character sheet, pretty much any class or combination of classes that can be squeezed into heavy armor and plopped on a horse.

We're precisely trying to avoid calling people by rules-based class names.  Your example of the knight is actually the exact idea we're going for--there should be a word, like knight, that can be applied to any mish-mash character that wields both sword and spell.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Amechra

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2012, 11:48:46 PM »
Elves have Bladesingers...
Gishes
Orcs have Warchanters...

Adept might work...

Puissant might also, but more as an adjective...

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Offline brujon

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2012, 01:31:06 AM »
Come on, how come one here never suggested Arcaknight? It even remembers a pokémon, Arcanine.
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Offline Wiggins

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2012, 06:42:32 AM »
How about High Arcanist to represent Wizards, Sorcerers and even Warlocks, with Low Arcanist to represent Duskblades, Hexblades and the multiclassed?

Offline Hans-E

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2012, 08:27:50 AM »
We're precisely trying to avoid calling people by rules-based class names.  Your example of the knight is actually the exact idea we're going for--there should be a word, like knight, that can be applied to any mish-mash character that wields both sword and spell.

OK, I understand a bit better now.

Of course, not every armored horseman is a knight.  Most in-game titles have more to do with social status than abilities.  Often there is some crossover, since social status and ability are intertwined, but as a general rule a person is defined by social standing. 

In a campaign world, the fact is that almost all powerful warriors will have some sort of magical abilities, whether they come from class features or equipment.  In the eyes of the general population, is there a big difference between psychic warrior who makes liberal use of Expansion and a straight fighter who has a big stash of Enlarge Person potions?  Maybe, but these two characters seem to have more in common with each other than with a gish that casts fireballs and sets his sword on fire, right?

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2012, 01:56:48 PM »
Elves have Bladesingers...
Gishes
Orcs have Warchanters...

Adept might work...

Puissant might also, but more as an adjective...

Ooh, race-specific terms could be good if we had sufficient numbers of different races.  Maybe something to do with luck for halflings?



Come on, how come one here never suggested Arcaknight? It even remembers a pokémon, Arcanine.

A good term, even if it makes me think of Arclight theatres.  Keep 'em coming!



How about High Arcanist to represent Wizards, Sorcerers and even Warlocks, with Low Arcanist to represent Duskblades, Hexblades and the multiclassed?

I actually really like this one.  The divide is there, in a rather good way.  We could also have "hedge warrior," to spin off of hedge witch.



OK, I understand a bit better now.

Of course, not every armored horseman is a knight.  Most in-game titles have more to do with social status than abilities.  Often there is some crossover, since social status and ability are intertwined, but as a general rule a person is defined by social standing. 

In a campaign world, the fact is that almost all powerful warriors will have some sort of magical abilities, whether they come from class features or equipment.  In the eyes of the general population, is there a big difference between psychic warrior who makes liberal use of Expansion and a straight fighter who has a big stash of Enlarge Person potions?  Maybe, but these two characters seem to have more in common with each other than with a gish that casts fireballs and sets his sword on fire, right?

While you are correct that not every warrior on horseback is a knight, there are certain terms that can be used loosely for members of practically any melee class.  Admittedly, the problem is a bit more severe with magic-users--mage, spellcaster, arcanist, and so on--but there's a little bit of it for fighters.

You're right--there is a bit of a difference between gishes, depending on how exactly they use magic or items.  Let's focus primarily on those of the showier fashion.  In a world with magic items, simply growing in size may not be particularly noticeable to the average peasant.  However, Bob the farmer is definitely going to notice the guy with a swirling cloak of stars and a blade that flings bursts of flame.



Now that Hanako and I are living together, I was able to ask her about this one.  For those who don't know, Hanako is my linguist roommate who puts a lot of thought into world-building and the development of things over time.  I'm going to try to go over what she said as accurately as I can, but I may have to come back in and fix things.

Let's take the word samurai--not thaumurai, actually samurai.  She looked up the kanji, and it has a meaning that means "to serve," or "servant."  She's not sure if that's the original meaning, but she's giving it a good guess based on her knowledge of how Japanese words.  So, we have a general term for one who serves, which eventually becomes far more specific, referring to a particular warrior caste.  One, incidentally, that serves masters--much like a knight.  Now, there is a tendency is more modern fantasy settings to use "samurai" to simply refer to any Japanese-style swordsman.  So, the term went from a general word, to a word describing a very specific group, back to a general word.

(click to show/hide)

Hanako suggests that, if the combination of magic and weaponry is one that is thought of as a combination--that is, it is viewed as a synthesis--it is likely that a specific name would become a general term.  Take Xerox, for instance.  Technically, it was originally a very specific name for a company.  However, since then, we have come to use "xerox machine" as a general term.  So, if the Order of Mageblades were the first and most well-known practitioners of magic and melee, then people would eventually use "mageblade" to refer to any gishes, even if they were not members of that order.

There is, however, another possibility.  In fantasy martial arts, there is sometimes the concept of magical energy and fighting styles that flow into each other seamlessly.  Think some depictions of monks--the ki manipulation and actual fighting are a part of the same discipline, with no distinction drawn between them.  Think of the ninja, for whom mastery of weapons and of jutsu are one and the same.  In these cases, a new word arises to describe the style because it is not a combination of existing ones.  Instead, it is a thing in and of itself--not two things together, but a thing of its own.  As such, it has a name in and of itself--not two names together, but a name of its own.

So, in a setting in which gishes actively combine two distinct mechanics, terms should have roots in specific, but should make sense as general terms.  For this, it might actually make sense to use the gish terms for various races.  And, hey, if you have githyanki on the Material Plane as one of the dominant races, it could very easily come to pass that "gish" becomes the normal in-universe term.  However, given that they usually hang out on the Astral Plane, it might make more sense to look at the racial terms for humanoid races.  Amechra's post here helps us a bit, as well as allowing for a bit of diversification.  Finesse fighter gishes might go as bladesingers, while more frenzied types could go as warchanters.  On the other hand, if duskblades arose early enough, their name might well become the norm.

On the other hand, in settings in which magic and fighting flow together naturally, it makes sense for original terms to have cropped up.  If picking up a sword, casting a spell, and casting a sword through a spell are all equally intuitive actions, they should each have their own terminology.



As such, I suggest we look to building two groups of terms.  For the settings in which magic and melee are distinct, but can be combined, we need to come up with generic-sounding terms that could have come from a not-too-stupid-sounding specific term.  Low arcanist is good here, as are many of the terms previously suggested.  These words will always sound slightly less general than things like "mage" or "fighter," simply due to the nature of their development.

For the settings in which the combination of magic and melee is just as natural as either style on its own, we would want words that sound like original terms in and of themselves.  Anyone know knows much about constructed languages would be a great boon here, since we should technically be building towards something that sounds natural in English.  These are the words that should be just as basic as "mage" and "fighter," since the concepts that they express are on the same level.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Wiggins

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2012, 03:54:19 PM »
How about High Arcanist to represent Wizards, Sorcerers and even Warlocks, with Low Arcanist to represent Duskblades, Hexblades and the multiclassed?

I actually really like this one.  The divide is there, in a rather good way.  We could also have "hedge warrior," to spin off of hedge witch.


Thanks muchly  :D

I had a similar thought with "hedge knight" being similar to "hedge wizard", and both being recognisable terms, but hedge knights are a specific archetype, nothing to do with arcane power, more Quixotic characters (and now I just realised who I'm talking to lol) who have the armour and the title and maybe just hang around small villages hoping their presence is enough to ward off bandits because they're "getting too old for this".

Offline Prime32

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2012, 09:23:57 PM »
If you want a specific organisation... "The Knights Arcanis"? If a group like that were well-known enough, I could see "arcanis" coming to describe anyone with a similar fighting style.

Another +1 for "low arcanist" - I like the snooty implication that they learn swordplay to compensate for their "lack of talent".
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:26:40 PM by Prime32 »

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Mage, Warrior, and...Gish?
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2012, 10:48:32 PM »
Slaughter Mage

Arcane Butcher

Undead Princess

Panda-man Robot Strangler

Blade Warper

Prismatic Juggernaut

Actually, it looks like I need to get busy making these into Base/Prestige classes.  They'll probably go up this weekend.

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