Evil Overlord

[Cyclone Joker]

So, I've been kicking the idea around in my head for ages, and I just can't figure it out; What is the perfect Evil Overlord build? I mean, look at what a good and proper Evil Overlord needs: Minions, presence, brilliance, charisma, and power. One needs to be a brilliant strategic planner, and needs to be a credible threat. Either large hamminess or extreme genre savvy is needed. Examples of perfect Evil Overlords are Anubis, minus the omnicidal tendencies and near-omnipotence, Ba'al, Lex Luthor, and David Xanatos are all perfect examples. Now, full casters obviously make the best choice, with Charm/Dominate, summons and Planar Bindings, necromancy, and divination, and artificers are tempting, as they have most of the same tricks, and easier access to golems, but really, I'm having troublel coming up with one that would be memorable, unique, unconventional enough the players won't recognize the entire build on sight, and incredibly dangerous. Dangerous enough to threaten an entire party of similar levels, from levels 10-ish to 20-ish, and with nothing the players aren't allowed(No gestalt, special anything, and preferably, though not necessarily, no flaws, and restricted to WBL for personal equipment(Though not in his dungeons)).

I guess the real problem here is that the players are all relatively clever, and will spot a build typical build a mile away. The biggest, most important part of an evil overlord is memorability. Typical God-Wizard is incredibly dangerous, yes, but is no more than the last god-wizard they've seen with some extra levels and more resources. I mean, Anubis was scarier than Kronus, despite being basically the same guy with a bit more baby-eating and hamminess(Which was really quite a feat, given the Goa'uld being, well, Goa'uld), but the difference in technique was part of what made him more interesting. And, really, I need this thing to be dangerous. Dangerous to things like CoDZillas and Batmen.

So, I'm stuck. The best things I've been able to come up with are standard wizard builds, a couple of Ur-Priests, a crappy Dread Necro, a Thrallherd, and a commoner. All of these are mundane, boring, and easily recognizable by anyone with reasonable systems mastery, although Duskpriests are pretty cool.

So, can anyone help me out? I really got nothing. Also, sorry for the disorganization. It's 2AM, and I'm tired.

[Pencil]

I think you approach maybe from the wrong angle.I think villains become memorable not by their build but story wise, no?For me personally I found that the motivation was the most important thing about a villain since thats what distinguishes him from random evil guy #1337.Even though the players might never figure it out it still does matter and when they figure his/her motivation out the payoff is quite big.
Furthermore the villain should have a unique physical appearance and some features that make him unique.For example a certain "scar" (bad example), and a special cohort.
For example Luther is not such an interesting villain because he is an "Artificer 20" but because of his interaction with the heroes and other villains.And because he actually at least at parts thinks that he is doing the right thing.He is normally with the law and his evil deeds can`t be traced back.
His special feature probably is his armor and his abnormal greed.
Pretty long babbling for what I wanted to say.

As for powerlevel of the villain: This can only be a "caster" of some sort.It is sad but true that without DM intervention you can`t build a strong character that can take on an entire group, with the same building rules of the group, if it aint a caster.But that is not to hard if it is a caster depending on the optimization level of the party.Furthermore it also explains better why he is always able to get away and fight for another day.
To make them unique you make them thematically appropriate to a certain monster type obviously(evil summoner from the far realms,evil undead necromancer, evil halfgolem constructor etc.).But that only helps so far.

As for a build:Maybe an evil malconvoker that (summons from the far realms and stuff) is pretty high level but does not fight the pc`s directly and only lets his summons fight.Can be quite strong with a cohort and a planar ally.
If you want to get creative:Let the "cohort" be the real mastermind and the summoner the cohort....

[sirpercival]

Necrosinger

[Cyclone Joker]

@Pencil: The problem with that is, despite presentation and all, over half my group will focus just as much, if not more so, on the strict mechanics. Even if it's super-evil-mean-nasty wizard, it'd still be just another wizard to them, even if it's an eviler one.

Necrosinger

Now this, this has potential. It'd even be powerful specifically at the range I want it. Nice. Unique mechanically, too. This is almost exactly what I was looking for.

I am AFB right now, but I need to know, is there a cap on the number of minions you can have dirgesung, or whatever, up? Or can you have an arbitrarily large number of minions this way? Also, where did  you get the Magic Domain needed for Dweomerkeeper?

[sirpercival]

Necrosinger

Now this, this has potential. It'd even be powerful specifically at the range I want it. Nice. Unique mechanically, too. This is almost exactly what I was looking for.

I am AFB right now, but I need to know, is there a cap on the number of minions you can have dirgesung, or whatever, up? Or can you have an arbitrarily large number of minions this way? Also, where did  you get the Magic Domain needed for Dweomerkeeper?

No, there's no cap at all.  The intended cap was one at a time for as long as you sing only, but using Revive Undead to bypass this completely ignores the cap.  You can have any number of minions, who are undead without a template (so no visible changes unless there's an (Ex) ability that they lose which would change the way they look).

As for the Magic domain, I always freaking forget about that requirement, but Arcane Disciple (Magic) should do it.  The build I posted doesn't have requirements in there.  You could also arguably get access to the Magic domain using the 5th-level sorc ACF from Loredrake, but that's much much shadier and I don't recommend it.  Finally, you don't actually need so many levels in DwK, so if you have to dip for a domain somewhere (or take another level of Sorc to qualify for the ACF), you can.

[Pencil]

@Pencil: The problem with that is, despite presentation and all, over half my group will focus just as much, if not more so, on the strict mechanics. Even if it's super-evil-mean-nasty wizard, it'd still be just another wizard to them, even if it's an eviler one.

Every time I read something like this the little storyteller inside me dies a little more ;(


But since you want him to be a challenge starting level 10 it could be hard to pull of the trick that early, no?

[Cyclone Joker]

Arcane Disciple shouldn't work that way. It just gives you the spells, not the actual domain. You could go human with Heighten and Talfir-whatcha song, and simply go something like Bard X/Cloistered Cleric Y/Dirgesinger 5/blah blah blah. Also avoids Dragonwrought, so that's a plus.

Also, holy crap, that seems poorly designed, if only in hindsight.

@Pencil: I dunno, I kinda like it, if only because it takes a little of the pressure off my limited ability as a storyteller. I'm pretty good with the numbers, but not so good at the storytelling. Everyone else but one person in the group is just infinitely worse.

[sirpercival]

Arcane Disciple shouldn't work that way. It just gives you the spells, not the actual domain. You could go human with Heighten and Talfir-whatcha song, and simply go something like Bard X/Cloistered Cleric Y/Dirgesinger 5/blah blah blah. Also avoids Dragonwrought, so that's a plus.

Could do, except since Dirgesinger doesn't advance spellcasting you won't get 9th's for Gate... that's why I liked Sublime Chord.  Could use Ur-Priest + Contemplative or something instead...

Also, holy crap, that seems poorly designed, if only in hindsight.

Yeah... I mean, it's the capstone of an otherwise incredibly bad class.  It's only when you exploit it with Revive Undead that it becomes broken.  The really funny part is that the spell was printed in the same book, so they probably should have noticed the interaction...

[Cyclone Joker]

Arcane Disciple shouldn't work that way. It just gives you the spells, not the actual domain. You could go human with Heighten and Talfir-whatcha song, and simply go something like Bard X/Cloistered Cleric Y/Dirgesinger 5/blah blah blah. Also avoids Dragonwrought, so that's a plus.

Could do, except since Dirgesinger doesn't advance spellcasting you won't get 9th's for Gate... that's why I liked Sublime Chord.  Could use Ur-Priest + Contemplative or something instead...

Ah, I was unclear. I mean Bard X/Cleric Y/Dirgesinger 5/SC 1/Dweomerkeeper 9, probably Bard 2/Cleric 3, as you don't get much from Cleric 4.

Ur-Priest was my first thought, but it interacts funkily Dweomerkeeper. I mean, if you lost your powers, do you still have the Magic Domain, even if it's nonfunctional, or is it entirely gone? SC is simply simpler.

Also, holy crap, that seems poorly designed, if only in hindsight.

Yeah... I mean, it's the capstone of an otherwise incredibly bad class.  It's only when you exploit it with Revive Undead that it becomes broken.  The really funny part is that the spell was printed in the same book, so they probably should have noticed the interaction...

Huh. I though Revive Undead was an SpC-exclusive spell, which would have sort of justified it, and it was more of the idea that really open-ended powers aren't generally good idea. If it's from the same book, there's basically no excuse.

[Lo77o]

A really fun and unexpected CR 10 "boss" is a level 20 Adept. The extra HD will help with hit points and skills. And the Spells are rather good at that level. Let him concentrate on Vile spells, and you can make a very nice "Evil" overlord.

And most players underestimate NPC classes.

[sirpercival]

Arcane Disciple shouldn't work that way. It just gives you the spells, not the actual domain. You could go human with Heighten and Talfir-whatcha song, and simply go something like Bard X/Cloistered Cleric Y/Dirgesinger 5/blah blah blah. Also avoids Dragonwrought, so that's a plus.

Could do, except since Dirgesinger doesn't advance spellcasting you won't get 9th's for Gate... that's why I liked Sublime Chord.  Could use Ur-Priest + Contemplative or something instead...

Ah, I was unclear. I mean Bard X/Cleric Y/Dirgesinger 5/SC 1/Dweomerkeeper 9, probably Bard 2/Cleric 3, as you don't get much from Cleric 4.

Oh, sure.  Got it.

Ur-Priest was my first thought, but it interacts funkily Dweomerkeeper. I mean, if you lost your powers, do you still have the Magic Domain, even if it's nonfunctional, or is it entirely gone? SC is simply simpler.

Well, if you get the domain after entering Ur-Priest, you're fine.  UrP only ganks cleric casting that you already had.

Also, holy crap, that seems poorly designed, if only in hindsight.

Yeah... I mean, it's the capstone of an otherwise incredibly bad class.  It's only when you exploit it with Revive Undead that it becomes broken.  The really funny part is that the spell was printed in the same book, so they probably should have noticed the interaction...

Huh. I though Revive Undead was an SpC-exclusive spell, which would have sort of justified it, and it was more of the idea that really open-ended powers aren't generally good idea. If it's from the same book, there's basically no excuse.

Yup.  Page 70.  Yay WotC and poor optimization skills! 

[phaedrusxy]

Does it have to be a typical PC race? One of the easiest ways to make things that are strong enough to stand up to a party is to stack class levels onto monsters, and abuse/exploit how non-associated class levels boost CR.

For example, take a Stone giant (CR 8, 14 hit dice), and add 13 wizard levels onto it. It is now technically only CR 14, but has 27 hit dice (meaning it qualifies for epic feats...), and casts as a wizard 13.

[snakeman830]

Dread Necromancer with the Mother Cyst feat.  The good guys may be prepared to deal with his massive undead army, but can they handle his living minions that could be almost anyone or anything?  Necrotic Tumor is a ridiculously amazing spell.

[phaedrusxy]

Dread Necromancer with the Mother Cyst feat.  The good guys may be prepared to deal with his massive undead army, but can they handle his living minions that could be almost anyone or anything?  Necrotic Tumor is a ridiculously amazing spell.

And Advanced Learning (Magic Jar). This is starting to sound like a recurring PC of mine.

[Cyclone Joker]

@Abusing the CR system: I dunno, that just seems wrong. Like StP Favored Discipline(Magic)-level nasty. ESPECIALLY the Adept, as once the CR went up one, it'd get epic spells.

Dread Necromancer with the Mother Cyst feat.  The good guys may be prepared to deal with his massive undead army, but can they handle his living minions that could be almost anyone or anything?  Necrotic Tumor is a ridiculously amazing spell.

Hm. I'd been throwing this around, but the simple DC15 Sense Motive check makes this problematic. Does a level 10 Kalashtar qualify for Thrallherd?

On a side note, Magic Jar; Is it possible to make the swap permanent, like it is for regular Mind Switch?

[sirpercival]

Is homebrew on the table?  If so, may I present Stranger with the Burning Eyes?

[Cyclone Joker]

No homebrew. And dare I ask what possessed you to ever endure the horror of that wiki?

[sirpercival]

No homebrew. And dare I ask what possessed you to ever endure the horror of that wiki?

Someone's playing a SwtBE in one of my campaigns

[snakeman830]

@Abusing the CR system: I dunno, that just seems wrong. Like StP Favored Discipline(Magic)-level nasty. ESPECIALLY the Adept, as once the CR went up one, it'd get epic spells.

Dread Necromancer with the Mother Cyst feat.  The good guys may be prepared to deal with his massive undead army, but can they handle his living minions that could be almost anyone or anything?  Necrotic Tumor is a ridiculously amazing spell.

Hm. I'd been throwing this around, but the simple DC15 Sense Motive check makes this problematic. Does a level 10 Kalashtar qualify for Thrallherd?

On a side note, Magic Jar; Is it possible to make the swap permanent, like it is for regular Mind Switch?

Ordered minions to act normally and go about their lives until he has other orders?

[Cyclone Joker]

@Abusing the CR system: I dunno, that just seems wrong. Like StP Favored Discipline(Magic)-level nasty. ESPECIALLY the Adept, as once the CR went up one, it'd get epic spells.

Dread Necromancer with the Mother Cyst feat.  The good guys may be prepared to deal with his massive undead army, but can they handle his living minions that could be almost anyone or anything?  Necrotic Tumor is a ridiculously amazing spell.

Hm. I'd been throwing this around, but the simple DC15 Sense Motive check makes this problematic. Does a level 10 Kalashtar qualify for Thrallherd?

On a side note, Magic Jar; Is it possible to make the swap permanent, like it is for regular Mind Switch?

Ordered minions to act normally and go about their lives until he has other orders?

Wouldn't work. They'd still be entitled to the pathetically easy check.