Author Topic: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy  (Read 31727 times)

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2012, 10:04:59 PM »
@DonQuixote
You sort of illustrate one of the points I was trying to make.  I may have overstated the whole evil doesn't work as a long-running campaign thing.  Hell, I've run campaigns that are counterexamples to that.  But, as you pointed out, the motivations of your stipulatedly evil characters weren't all that evil.  And, they are a far cry from what you would think of as clearly "evil" villains -- for all their ruthlessness and disregard for morality, they were a far cry from Randall Flagg or Arioch. 

See, I'd argue that it never makes sense for PCs to be "villains," regardless of alignment.  Simply because the villain occupies a different role in the narrative.

If the PCs are the villains, that means that they are the ones in charge of the plot.  They're motivating events, they're working towards something.  In that case, the DM would have to be focused on thwarting the players' plot.  With heroes.  That sort of reversal just doesn't work with the narrative flow of a D&D game.

However, it is not necessarily the case that all evil characters are villains.  An evil campaign could center around a mind flayer community's reaction to a crusade by the church of Pelor, for instance.  Evil simply has to be put on the defensive, rather than the offensive.
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Offline caelic

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2012, 11:01:33 PM »
In your example, you would most likely commit the bribe to get the hostages clear, then pursue Mr. Evil, slaying the bad guy and taking his stuff (as well as your stuff back).


...except that they make it pretty clear that THAT is also evil.  (Remember the example of teaming up with the Drow later on page 10?   Remember how they emphasize that you can't then "betray their trust" by turning on them?)

Like I said: I've been a proponent of the "Good and evil are objective in D&D" school of thought for a long time, but I still think their execution proceeding from that point sucked.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2012, 12:58:50 AM »
@DonQuixote
You sort of illustrate one of the points I was trying to make.  I may have overstated the whole evil doesn't work as a long-running campaign thing.  Hell, I've run campaigns that are counterexamples to that.  But, as you pointed out, the motivations of your stipulatedly evil characters weren't all that evil.  And, they are a far cry from what you would think of as clearly "evil" villains -- for all their ruthlessness and disregard for morality, they were a far cry from Randall Flagg or Arioch. 

See, I'd argue that it never makes sense for PCs to be "villains," regardless of alignment.  Simply because the villain occupies a different role in the narrative.

If the PCs are the villains, that means that they are the ones in charge of the plot.  They're motivating events, they're working towards something.  In that case, the DM would have to be focused on thwarting the players' plot.  With heroes.  That sort of reversal just doesn't work with the narrative flow of a D&D game.

However, it is not necessarily the case that all evil characters are villains.  An evil campaign could center around a mind flayer community's reaction to a crusade by the church of Pelor, for instance.  Evil simply has to be put on the defensive, rather than the offensive.
I guess what I'm wondering is how much evil is buying you there from a campaign perspective, then?  If evil doesn't equal villains, which I think is a nicer way than I would ever be capable of putting it, what's the point to playing evil characters?  Besides the novelty value and so on, I suppose.  Not to be too pejorative, but at that point the evilness seems more like window dressing. 

I'm by no means sure about this, by the way.  It's just a thought that this thread has sparked. 

Offline veekie

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2012, 01:21:20 AM »

If the PCs are the villains, that means that they are the ones in charge of the plot.  They're motivating events, they're working towards something.  In that case, the DM would have to be focused on thwarting the players' plot.  With heroes.  That sort of reversal just doesn't work with the narrative flow of a D&D game.
Actually, you can have player-driven plots as well, provided they have a clear and relatively coordinated goal. The players define the goals, and the GM charts the path and obstacles on the way.
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Offline midnight_v

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2012, 09:24:08 AM »
Quote
Not to be too pejorative, but at that point the evilness seems more like window dressing.

It really IS window dressing in my opinion. I think thats one of th major points I'm trying to imply.

  There is very LITTLE difference between good hats and evil hats on a day to day basis. There's virtually NO difference in the "activities" of a Good party and an Evil party.
For example Damont D'juan, Sword Prince in the above scenario. . . his motivations are different from Barry the Paladin, but they're going to do the same things when it comes to klilling monsters, and maybe live in the same city. The difference is primarily a fluff situation, but at points it there ARE fringe story options that are going to be explored differently by both stories.
Ultimately though.. even if it IS just window dressing. There nothing WRONG with that.

 I also think it really is just bleed over from how people feel or have been taught from real life, that give people the harsh "No evuuullzzz!" stance.  Not that there's anything wrong with that either, but Gary Is kinda misguided about it because of his life xp's.
 
  I think there are some people who've read "Evil will always turn on itself" one too many times, in dragonlance, or who simply cannot fathom that there are "Evil" people all over the place but that they're not "EVIL" in the sense that they have it as a TAG.

Damont D'juan was my first example.

My second example is more of a question. Campaign: Dhakanni Empire. You're in an empire of hobgoblins, you are a hobgoblin. Any party you're in? Comprised of Hobgoblins.
Everybody is (population wise) overwhelmingly lawful evil, what does that even mean?

Well aside from the fact that the buses should run on time the food is plentiful even if the stock food is rather bland....  and social climbing is very kafkaesque...

 Mostly it means that unless you're "Playing as Drizzt" then really as an adventuring party you're in the military. Or you're a mercenary group loyal to each other but willing to hurt others.   
  Mechanically, even if you say we tourture the prisoners, we are still not getting a bonus on that "Gather information check",   unless the bovd gives rules for that, I don't think thats a skill check anywhere.... so yeah Gather infromation, thats all its going to amount to . Further frankly, thats going to net LESS effect than knocking someone unconscious and casting "Charm Person" or "Dominate" or whatever's available at your level.
  You're still going to war with Orcs, killing dragons, and undead as well as any group that opposes you and your group.
Among other things. . .

 So with that as a starting point. . . for an evil campaign...
Whats so different?
It really IS okay to play evil in D&D because if thats the story you want told thats fine as long as its fine with everbody.

Which... brings me to erotic fantasy. My culture/upbringing/beliefs, put sexuality like that on a personal level. I'm intimate with people, yes, and thats where I keep things like that between me and those in my intimate circle of lovers etc.
   Sex is just too personal for me to want to share those types of stories, round the table and roll dice "to hit".
  However, I'm mature enough to realize that some people might want to tell stories that don't shy away from focusing the lens on things that we glaze over. I recognize that the BOEF, is a tool to facilitate that type of story telling.

 I wouldn't do that because of my personal feeling, but if you WANT to do that it really is okay, because well heroes have sex in stories too.
  As long as everyone ELSE feel respected and is okay with it.

damn... I hope thats a good post. I'm hella weary
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2012, 10:49:23 AM »
In your example, you would most likely commit the bribe to get the hostages clear, then pursue Mr. Evil, slaying the bad guy and taking his stuff (as well as your stuff back).
...except that they make it pretty clear that THAT is also evil.  (Remember the example of teaming up with the Drow later on page 10?   Remember how they emphasize that you can't then "betray their trust" by turning on them?)

Which is what I said, immediately preceding where you started quoting me. To wit:
On the other hand, Evil is Evil, irregardless of the end result. To put it simply, the ends do not justify the means. That said, your example of bribe versus hostage is a lot more like their example of "slay Evil or honour love" wherein there is a moral quandary that either option is a little evil. Basically, you would need to try to find an "option C" if possible. In your example, you would most likely commit the bribe to get the hostages clear, then pursue Mr. Evil, slaying the bad guy and taking his stuff (as well as your stuff back).
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Offline bobtheapple

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2012, 01:08:40 PM »
But reading through them for guidelines on Good and Evil (and the Champions of Valor / Ruin) is sometimes useful to help reiterate that Good & Evil in D&D are not philosophy, but universal powers with their own rules, that at times have less to do with our views on the subjects than some would think. It also helps in other ways. I have brought in a Bardic-based build that I plan to eventually have take Words of Creation ("more-broken bits of crunch being used") into a party that is mostly evil. When some of the other players were worried that I might become the "babysitter" or the "morality pet", I brought out the BoED, and read out some of the more pertinent parts on Good working with Evil (under "Ends and Means" on page 9 and "Relationships" on page 10).

Actually, as I often point out to my players who consider Vow of Poverty or Vow of Peace to be too strong of feats, there is a large difference between being Exalted and being 'just a good guy.'  BoED is rather explicit on this point.  While teaming up with evil people for good ends can be fine for a good character, strange bedfellows and all that, it is absolutely NOT okay (according to BoED) for an exalted character.  Under ends and means: "Good ends might sometimes demand evil means. The means remain evil, however, and so characters who are serious about their good alignment and exalted status cannot resort to them, no matter how great the need."  And under relationships: "Paladins, of course, are prohibited from associating with evil characters, but other exalted PCs should also steer clear of evil companions, unless the evil character is attempting to reform herself and making progress toward neutrality at least."  So unless your character constantly keeps an eye on your companions, making sure they do not commit evil deeds and stay on the path to good-old-fashioned-good, you risk losing your exalted status.  Which, in turn, is exactly what the other players are afraid of.  Now, whether your group actually runs exalted status that strictly or not is a completely different matter.

Frankly, I find BoED as juvenile in its cartoon-ish and limited view of goodness as BoVD is in its view of evil.  Both go about things in a rather silly way, BoED espousing a clearly reactionary (and extremely flawed) code of morality to combat BoVD's childish indulgence in "the dark side."  That being said, I happen to use BoVD quite a bit at my table, and BoED sits on the shelf gathering dust.  The reason for this is probably that I find BoVD's material to be interesting, its just that its at some points poorly written.  Its at it's best when talking about the alignment system in D&D, the implications of elements that crop up in just about every fictional setting (Vengeance, Lies, Betrayal, Murder) in a setting that has polar morality backed by hosts of incarnations of good and evil, law and chaos.  And yes, it does talk about rarer (and in poorer taste) elements too, such as cannibalism, necrophilia, and bestiality, but in the books defense I find these are fascinating subjects in a world of Half-Dragon Liches with a taste for Worg.  Now, they could have been handled better than they were, but whatever.  In the end its a rulebook, not a philosophy textbook.

As for using the content, I often run games where the players want to play evil characters.  Now, my games are usually more character driven than story driven  (I make settings, not campaigns), so this isn't really a problem.  Sometimes the group decides they want to take over the world, starting by subsuming a small bandit organization and working their way to the top, other times they just go on rampages of mayhem and destruction.  I had one particularly fun campaign where the group decided they wanted to all play monsters, and when I agreed, I was astonished by how much they got into roleplaying MONSTERS (I assumed they just wanted to play races not normally allowed to players, so I came up with rules for it... I ended up with a Tsochar, a Neogi, and a Cloaker infiltrating and battling against a city of righteous adventurers as they each tried their best to impress the others with the horrors they could wreak.  The Tsochar won.)  Often times the group will implement BoVD material into their characters (human sacrifices have shown up at least twice as a Malus-Ex-Machina, resulting in the summoning of a pit fiend for a wish, and each time ending in the party's inevitable destruction as the not-so-proverbial deal with the devil turns sour.)  I myself have played a chaotic good character that used the execution rules to publicly dispatch evil-doers.

But to get to the main topic, I understand Gary Gygax's point completely.  D&D was probably something like a child to him: its his creation, which he made to have fun with his friends and family.  Just look at the adventures he himself wrote; they are almost exclusively light-hearted, Good vs Evil scenarios, where the righteous players pit themselves against the forces of darkness, and goodness prevails.  He probably never intended the game to be used as a devil-worshiping, baby-sacrificing, mad-dog-killer simulator.  What's more, he had to deal with the hoards of irate parents and concerned citizens, scared their children were doing the exact things that BoVD facilitates their characters to do.  Luckily, most of that has died down these days, but it is still around, and for someone who lived his adult life fighting these people, it probably is rough seeing something that could potentially start the whole thing up again.

However, in the end the most important thing is that people have fun.  As long as everyone at the table is having a good time, no one's feelings are hurt, and no offense is taken, it really doesn't matter what kind of game you run, or how you run it.  If BoVD is offensive to you, and you don't want it at your table, that's fine, don't buy it.  I myself don't own or use BoEF because I don't have much interest in running a highly sexual game.  But if that's something that's important to your group.... I still wouldn't recommend Erotic Fantasy.  Honestly, if you really need sexual magic or whatever, anything you can come up with is more mature (and more mature) than whats in there.  It really is an irredeemable book, and not in the nature of its content, in that its just a bad book. (Aside: Metaphysical Spellshaper is a good class, why is it even in that book?)

Offline caelic

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2012, 01:59:24 PM »
Which is what I said, immediately preceding where you started quoting me. To wit:


Well, yes.  My point was that the option C you were proposing would be just as evil, according to the book, as options A and B...hence sort of defeating the purpose of seeking an option C in the first place when presented with two options that were both evil.  (I'm assuming the point you were trying to make was that, when confronted with two evils, you should try to seek a third option that isn't evil.)

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2012, 11:15:23 AM »
Which is what I said, immediately preceding where you started quoting me. To wit:


Well, yes.  My point was that the option C you were proposing would be just as evil, according to the book, as options A and B...hence sort of defeating the purpose of seeking an option C in the first place when presented with two options that were both evil.  (I'm assuming the point you were trying to make was that, when confronted with two evils, you should try to seek a third option that isn't evil.)

The bribing itself may or may not be, given the exact circumstances. Thus why I said "most likely".

Giving money to a shop-keep isn't evil, even if you know that the shop-keep is evil. But if you know that the shop-keep is going to use the money for evil purpose, then you get some of the "karmic backwash" from his cosmic intent. The "energy" traveling along the pathway of your "awareness" as it were.

Giving someone money, if that gift prevents an act of evil, is good-ish. Unless you know that that gift is going to be used for evil. Example of base point: giving the evil shop-keep a gift of a few hundred gold to pay the taxes on his shop, with the understanding that if you hadn't he'd have made the money by selling cheap knockoffs with Magic Aura cast on them, would be neutral-leaning-good. Example of counter point: you know that the shop-keep is going to take that money and pay thieves guilds to rough up his competition to drive more customers his way.

If that gift prevents an act of evil, and you plan to make sure that the gift can't be used for evil, then that is at the very least neutral, if not being good for the prevention of evil acts. Thus the example of the bribe, and reclamation thereof.

Again, this isn't based on my own moral views, but rather the information presented in the books.

Actually, as I often point out to my players who consider Vow of Poverty or Vow of Peace to be too strong of feats,
AHAHAHAHAHAHA  :lol :lol :lol.

If those feats are "too strong", then there is something else really, really wrong there, and it has nothing to do with what I'd said.

... the rest of what was aimed at me.
All of which I am aware of, and will be kept in mind.



Anyway, this has really gotten OT.
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Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2012, 02:06:44 PM »
Evil lies in how you approach these things. With a maximum of suffering to others and a minimum of cost to you and yours.

When your friends are threatened, you would be willing to disregard everything else, no mercy, no means spared, in order to save them. If you had to conquer the world and publicly torture all the offenders to death as a deterrence, so be it.

If your course is justice, you dole it out through pain, fear and death. It may be a Good cause, but pursued through Evil means. An Evil man's solution to world hunger may be to kill all the excess population and then institute a strict regimen of birth control ensuring plenty for everyone else. He is not incapable of subtlety or care, he just considers the cost to anything not within his sphere of interest to be negligible.
Agreed on all points except subtlety; evil is quite capable of subtlety, unless the situation needs evil to be shown in the broadest possible strokes, like Snively Whiplash or similarly cartoonish versions of evil.  Subtlety is often key to long-term strategy.
Good points, both of you.

Got me thinking of a literary reference which displays many different motivations of Evil.  The Dark One and the Forsaken from the Wheel of Time.

(click to show/hide)

The Dark One:  Ultimate embodiment of evil.  Though still imprisoned, he does have influence on the world.  His ultimate goal is to destroy all of existence (and possibly remake creation according to his own rules).

Ishmael: The "head" of the Forsaken.  Prior to turning to the Dark, he was a renowned philosopher and intellectual, and his books were read the world-over.  He turned to the Dark after he reasoned out that the battle between the Creator's champion (the Dragon, a soul reborn as a magic-using man to fight the Dark One) and the Dark One had been happening repeatedly for all time, and would continue repeatedly for all time; the Light must win every time to preserve the world, while the Dark One must win only once.  Therefore, his logical conclusion was to side with the Dark.  He is the only Forsaken to fully understand the Dark One's ultimate goal of total destruction of everything, that creation will cease to be; he embraces this.  Many other Forsaken speculate that he is insane, though.

Lanfear:  A spurned former-lover of the Dragon; she had seen her relationship with the Dragon as a means to gain power.  She is exceedingly jealous of the Dragon's wife.  She was a "researcher of magic" and is the one who bored the hole into the Dark One's prison (presumably innocently).  She was the first to encounter the Dark One, and gave over to him at that moment.

Demandred:  A very successful and well-known magic-user, second only to the Dragon.  Second to the Dragon in everything, and hates the Dragon for it.  Born one day after the Dragon, almost as handsome as the Dragon, second most acclaimed man of his time, behind the Dragon.  He even had desired the Dragon's wife, before she married the Dragon.

Semirhage:  The most renowned healer who could heal someone from the brink of death when other magic-users would fail, and understood the pain a pleasure centers of the brain.  She was also a sadist, and would extract pain from the people she healed, and would only heal those she felt society needed.  When her sadistic treatments were discovered, she was given a choice to be magically compelled never to inflict pain again, or be cut off from being able to use magic ever again.  She fled to the Dark.

Graendal:  Expert in the mind and mental illness, she was a known ascetic that eschewed worldly pleasure.  Some years after the drilling of the Bore into the Dark One's prison, she realized the world could not live up to her standards, and she became an extreme hedonist.

Aginor:  Highly skilled biologist who was banned from performing any genetic engineering after conducting some experiments on animals (no real details of what was done).  After turning to the Dark One a few decades later, he engineered the Trollocs and other shadowspawn.

Balthamel:  The promise of immortality is what turned him to the Dark One.

Moghedien:  A financial consultant who was repeatedly disciplined for ethics violations.  She was one of the early turners, but did not openly declare it.  She worked as an intelligence officer for the Light, but was actually spying for the Dark One's forces.

Mesaana:  Was denied a research position at a magical research university, and was given a teaching position instead.  During the War, she was a regional governor in the Dark One's conquered lands, and established schools where children were taught to spy on each other and their parents.  Mobs of these children burned down museums, libraries and research facilities.  People of all ages were tried before courts entirely made of children, then executed.

Asmodean:  The promise of immortality (so he could compose music forever) is why he turned to the Dark.

Rahvin: Turned to the Dark One because of his thirst for Power.

Sammael: When the Dragon was named Commander of the Light, Sammael hated his former friend for losing out, and turned to the Dark One, so he could lead armies to destroy the Dragon.

All of the Forsaken, with the exception of Ishamael, have the desire and belief that they will gain power and rule as kings after the Dark One defeats the Dragon.  They all think the Dark One merely plans to rule over the world, and when the Dark One asks one of them to use Balefire (magic that utterly destroys what it touches, to the point of warping reality and causing existence to unravel) that individual abhors the idea.

So, the motivations we have include cold logic of inevitability, jealousy, a desire for an escape from punishment for "banned" proclivities (an thus gaining the freedom to participate in those activities again), disappointment with the imperfections of the world, the promise of immortality, the desire for power, and resentment for being spurned in one form or another.

(click to show/hide)

Edit: Also, upon their release in the end of the Third Age, as the seals on the Bore weaken, nearly all of the Forsaken take extremely subtle actions to place themselves into positions of power.  Some through mental manipulation, some through subterfuge, and some are more subtle than others, as fits their personalities.  Nearly all are working toward the goal of defeating the Dragon when the Dark One is released, and take steps to sow chaos throughout society. (Chaos in the mundane sense, not the cosmic force).

Some attain their power by usurping positions of power: getting named to the High Council and killing the king; becoming a lover to the ruling queen; fomenting rebellion and killing the king, leaving his loyal supporters with your forged missives providing non-nonsensical orders; causing divisiveness and derision in the one long-standing magic-user organization in the world, etc.

The Dark One also encourages in-fighting between the Forsaken.  Which would match up with PvP assassinations within an evil party, but then, the Dark One is also a cosmic force of Evil.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 02:57:32 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline Halinn

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2012, 02:35:56 PM »
Giving money to a shop-keep isn't evil, even if you know that the shop-keep is evil. But if you know that the shop-keep is going to use the money for evil purpose, then you get some of the "karmic backwash" from his cosmic intent. The "energy" traveling along the pathway of your "awareness" as it were.
How fast does that information travel? Kidnap exalted characters, then convince people he has interacted with previously to do evil deeds.

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2012, 02:56:30 PM »
Giving money to a shop-keep isn't evil, even if you know that the shop-keep is evil. But if you know that the shop-keep is going to use the money for evil purpose, then you get some of the "karmic backwash" from his cosmic intent. The "energy" traveling along the pathway of your "awareness" as it were.
How fast does that information travel? Kidnap exalted characters, then convince people he has interacted with previously to do evil deeds.

A) This is the last time I'll respond to the OT stuff unless it gets its own thread (thus no longer being OT).
B) It keys off of being premeditated to be evil. If you gift the money with the intent for it to do good, then it is good; if you gift the money to prevent evil, then it is good-ish neutral; if you gift the money to do evil, then it is evil; if you gift the money to do good or prevent evil, and evil is done, then you have a moral imperative to shove your greatsword so far up where the sun doesn't shine with a smite that you remove the shop-keeps tonsils (because murdering a person for a civil offence is good :rolleyes ).
C) This kind of back and forth of "well, what if X?" crap is exactly why I always abolish alignment when I DM anymore.

1) Caelic asked a question about the purposefulness of the advice in the books. I answered.
2) My stance about the books, in response to the OP, has been answered. Mine was the 3rd response.
3) My stance about Gygax's stance on the books, in response to the OP, has been answered (he didn't read them). Mine was the 3rd response.

So, I have nothing further to add on topic, and I refuse to participate in further OT here (unless this conversation gets its own thread), thus: [leave.thread]

EDIT: my tone here is matter-of-fact and respectful, not the somewhat dickish re-reading it seems to imply.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 02:59:05 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2012, 07:44:23 PM »
As far as the overall "canon" of D&D,
any one book is not in isolation.
So even if the flavor/fluff of the book
is somewhat to very objectionable,
it is still placed within a larger context.
(imho, and just about BoVD/BoED)

Technically there's a fail-safe to any
believe-yness on the Outer Planes.
Do something too not Lawful Good
Neutral and too often, and whoopsy
a large chunk of the plane violates
the spacetime continuum and takes
a trip to Mechanus.  Similarly, the
Prison of Madness that bad Dwarf
god is in.  Prison is Gehenna/Carceri.
Madness is Pandemonium.  Both at
equal measure is the Abyss (though
not the only way to be CE).
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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2012, 10:01:06 PM »
The bribing itself may or may not be, given the exact circumstances. Thus why I said "most likely".

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear; what I was talking about was the suggestion to then turn on the shopkeeper and take the money back afterwards.  That's the point that the BoED strongly indicates is evil. 


Quote
Anyway, this has really gotten OT.


Agreed, and I'll stop now.  Just wanted to clarify that point.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2012, 04:17:00 PM »
Missed this 1st go round.

Wait, in 2nd Edition the Upper Planes went to war against each other?

Tell me more!

Planes of Law box set and Planes of Chaos box set.
So what to call the next one?
Planes of Conflict ... included the 3 NGs with the 3 NEs.
Beastlands is not dizney world.  They expect trouble.
Mind you, it's not as dramatic as the Blood War.
Heck the Blood War got it's own boxed set.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2012, 05:12:43 PM »
I'm not sure if all the Planescape material, which is what Awaken DMGolem is referring to, was automatically canon.  These things got all wonky as to what was considered the Great Wheel or whatever. 

I don't know what the technicalities were or weren't.  But, from a practical standpoint if people (DMs, novelists, players) have a DMG or Monster Manual view of extraplanar entities the Planescape stuff could play merry havoc on that.  No one, not even the lawful good supposed bastions of goodness, are what you'd call good or decent when it gets to Planescape.  Batshit crazy is probably a more apt description. 

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2012, 07:54:25 PM »
GG is dead on about BoEF.

I'd love to have had a talk with him on BoVD however...

Offline Amechra

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2012, 11:48:50 PM »
In my opinion, BoED and BoVD aren't about good and evil in the normal sense.

They are about good and evil in the "heroic" sense, where smashing someone's face in is a jolly fine way to resolve your differences, and where poison just isn't good cricket, my old chum.

Because, consider... in sword and sorcery fantasy, the villain usually is a pretty disgusting person.

At least, that's what I tell myself so that I don't give in to the urge to rewrite both of them...
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Offline Nicklance

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2012, 07:57:18 AM »
I would not need a book like BoVD to tell me how to be evil. Hell, the PHB alone gives enough material on how to be evil. The very same motivations, agendas and goals of heroes can easily be flipped around and drive an evil campaign.

This is especially true when you consider how differently people view vengeance or how justice can be flipped around into brutality and such.

BoVD doesn't really talk about that bit. They just go "RARGH FUCKING KILL AND FUCK EVERYTHING YEAH!"
Will add later

Offline SneeR

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Re: Gary Gygax's thoughts on the Books of Vile Darkness and Erotic Fantasy
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2012, 04:38:31 PM »
The Book of Vile Darkness is one of my favorite sourcebooks. I read is any time I want a little jolt of inspiration.
Mechanically, most of the ideas suck. Youc an't deny, though, that they put a lot of work into the fluff. Dark Speech, torture devices, sacrifices, souls as currency, alternate Curses, and a lot of other stuff from the Book is quite interesting, if poorly-implemented.

The sample villains, prestige classes, feats, and spells are all fantastic ideas that I often use wholesale for homebrew villains and mechanics that actually work.

Granted, though, a lot of my villains are elder fiends and demons dwelling beneath the earth that fester in their own horrors for millenia. However, I often have anti-heroes using horrible methods to do good things, like using the soul-sucking sword quenched with orphan blood to scare off bandits and ruffians from a humble hamlet.

I actually think that the real shame on the published sourcebooks is the Book of Exalted Deeds. They literally just took all of the options available to evil creatures and gave them a shiny white paint coat to make them acceptable for good characters. Undead, poison, disease, vile feats, and torture by any other name is still the same. A lot of work went into the Book of Wile Darkness. The Book of Exalted Deeds is just so much palette swap and shiny-happy garbage.

The Book of Erotic Fantasy is a joke. All of it is under-powered, and the fluff is so juvenile that it can't inspire anything, let alone be used in its own right. Only the stuff about heritage and gestation times are interesting. That a demon has a 100% chance of conception when it wants to is amusing. The rest of the book is just dull and childish. The Book of Erotic Fantasy has exactly one place: the bedroom of a couple of nerds who want to have some mechanics-driven foreplay before they dive into the hot and heavy.
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