Author Topic: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.  (Read 29476 times)

Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2012, 08:49:54 AM »
Oh god, major rule changes, slipped in by editing prior posts.  Try this one on:


This is important, and something I forgot to mention. Cure and Inflict spells - and those spells alone - will be available to arcane casters, but they are prepared at one level higher then a cleric normally prepares them. Furthermore, an arcane spellcaster isn't restricted by morals the same way a cleric is, and could potentially prepare both.
Yeah, this doesn't matter. All of them are beyond trash.
It probably doesn't affect them, unless there are cure spells they don't get in which case they could cast them as a spell 1 level higher.


Ok, here's my feat list.  What do you think?
lvl 1 Improved Initiative
lvl 2 (Bonus Feat per char creation rules)(Wiz lvl 1) Spell Mastery (no idea what I'll take, but in this situation WAY too good to skip)
lvl 3 Master Spellthief (bumps my arcane caster level up to my actual level)
lvl 6 (Sudden?) Extend Spell
lvl 6 (Elf Wiz Sub Lvl 5) Point Blank Shot (Qualifies me for Spellwarp)

If I take flaw, (the one flaw I'm allowed, and not one of the good ones) I would get either Invisible Spell (if allowed, perfect for this game, combined with my conceal spellcasting skill trick "What?  No, I didn't hear anything.  Someone died?") or maybe Uncanny Forethought.

Please let me know what you think.
Improved initiative is not worth it. At all. You have so many better things to spend feats on.

Also, use the Spontaneous Divination ACF. Give up your 5th level bonus feat for the ability to(Depending on interpretation) either cast ANY divination ever printed, or at least any Wizard divination(Period, doesn't need to be in your spellbook) spontaneously. It even qualifies you for Versatile Spellcaster if you want, although Uncanny Forethought also does, and you should take it. If you need to, you can use your flaw to pick up.

I'd go Human, with:
Wizard 1/Spellthief 1/Wizard +4/Spellwarp Sniper 1, if you're set on spellwarp sniper.
1)Spell Mastery H)Uncanny Forethought F)Extend B)Point Blank Shot(Using the UA ACF that lets you trade wizard bonus feats for fighter feats
2)Persistent Spell
3)Master Spellthief
6)Versatile Spellcaster
Going Elf for the Elf Wizard sub level + Domain Wizard (Transmutation) is like specializing, but without most the cost.

Go for it!
]Elven generalist+domain wizard=early 9s. I don't think your DM will be too happy 'bout that. But, even if you don't go that route, the combo is really nice. I just don't see what it has to do with believing in Nexus.

Offline darqueseid

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2012, 08:53:38 AM »
I think I'm in love with the flavor of a skillmonkey, sneaky caster.  spellthief/transmuter for some prefight buffing/spellwarp sniper.  The other ideas mentioned (incantatrix, beguiler, and mindbender have all been mentioned by players applying to the game, and I don't want to compete with a similar build. 

My advice is to fall out of love with the spellthief/transmuter build for a lot of reasons.  Number one, your casting progression  suffers, which means you just won't be as powerful stacked up against an incantatrix at all,  and number two you'll actually have to hit spellcasters to use the spell-steal ability.  Which, since this is a more powerful campaign may not happen all that often.   Esp considering that you won't have the best BAB in the world and clerics (your main opponent it seems) can buff AC-even touch ac... 

Secondarily, if someones playing an incantatrix, you will be "competing"  with a similar build as the incantatrix will have everything you can do, only she'll be able to do it better and sooner.  Hell, just a
straight up conjurer god-wizard 7 with abrubt jaunt is strictly better than spellthief/trans/swpsniper.

I'm not telling you this to be mean, I just want you to be prepared that you are choosing a sub-optimal build if you go this route, and the Incantatrix will easily outshine you in every way.

Your better off going for psionics, or bard, or warlock.  Otherwise I'm afraid you actually WILL be doing the same thing that everyone else is, only they'll be doing it better.  I still say psionics is strictly best, but I've recently become a believer in bards... :D
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 09:05:29 AM by darqueseid »

Offline darqueseid

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2012, 09:02:22 AM »
(click to show/hide)
+1 for all of this, I don't know why all the handbook writers are in love with improved init, esp when warning and eager are out there that pretty much make up for it and you have a million better feats to take.  Its not that improved init sucks, its that there's just so much better out there.  Also go conjurer ,not transmuter, for abrupt jaunt if you've got your heart set on specializing.  And btw conjuration is a better domain, but its a secret   ;)

Offline AugustusGloop

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2012, 10:51:15 AM »
All valid objections, it seems like, but let me explain my reasoning.

When we fight, we will be attracting attention.  The harder we fight the more attention we attract.  It sounds strange, but while I want to be effective, I am happy to be out-shined.  I fully expect that there will be fights where someone will get crazy, fireballs will fly, and the rest of the party will have to shake their heads and move on as someone goes out in a blaze of glory.  Make no mistake though, glory = death.

In this game, no amount of power is going to defeat what will be coming at us.  Wizards are not dumb, it wouldn't have taken them long to realize what was happening when this all started.  We all know that Wizards are well equipped to push back, and if they banded together in common cause with the other arcane casters they could bring a serious amount of power to bear on the problem.  My guess is that Arcane and Divine basically being as good as each other, albeit at different things, the deciding factor was that churches are inherently organized, wizards are inherently not organized. 

It took 200 years, but the churches have all but stamped out their foes.

The combined churches have the weight of years of totalitarian authority and have had 200 years to re-write history so that the common people believe that anything other than Divinely inspired magic is evil.  We're locked in a city that hates and fears us, and thanks to the long war against Arcane, is well equipped to find and kill us.


I wanted to play a caster, and not a magically inclined warrior or rogue.  Given the realities, I'm happy to sacrifice some power for a character that is subtle, isn't completely dependent on magic to survive, and from what I hear about the campaign, I think I'm near the sweet spot in the fluff / self sufficiency / optimization venn diagram.
Also, I'm coming at the game from a slightly different direction than most of you.  For the last few years I've been playing Dresden Files RPG, which compared to D&D is one step this side of freeform.  The philosophy is that whatever build you make is going to be roughly the same power as any other build, what's important is how you imagine and use it.  In this game, imagination literally is power, since how you apply what you have is so much more important than what you have.  Power levels are less important to me than having the flexibility to attempt some really out of the box solutions.


I really appreciate the concern for my fun that's behind all the objections, but if you like you can consider me a basket case and move on, or (and I would really appreciate this!) you could accept the rough form I'm looking for, pretend it's some kind of weird optimization challenge, and have at it!

Let me approach the concerns and comments in reverse order:
[ I don't know why all the handbook writers are in love with improved init, esp when warning and eager are out there that pretty much make up for it and you have a million better feats to take.  Its not that improved init sucks, its that there's just so much better out there.  Also go conjurer ,not transmuter, for abrupt jaunt if you've got your heart set on specializing.  And btw conjuration is a better domain, but its a secret   ;)
I can see the improved initiative argument.  I agonized over it but what I kept coming back to is what happens when I'm found?  I feel like we're always going to be outnumbered, and for a low hp wizard, acting first seems like it might be the difference between locking down the fight and dying to a couple of attacks.  I plan to use the hell out of Improved Initiative + nerveskitter.  If you're inspired to show me a better way, please do!
We have a character who is going malconvoker.  He's going to take all the sweet summoning conjuration tricks and make them shine.  My plan is to be right behind him making his stuff shine brighter.  If it works, we all win.  If it doesn't work, well, they're looking at him, not me.

Also, use the Spontaneous Divination ACF. Give up your 5th level bonus feat for the ability to(Depending on interpretation) either cast ANY divination ever printed, or at least any Wizard divination(Period, doesn't need to be in your spellbook) spontaneously. It even qualifies you for Versatile Spellcaster if you want, although Uncanny Forethought also does, and you should take it. If you need to, you can use your flaw to pick up.
I almost, almost, almost went Divination.  The fluff for my character is that he actually sneaked into town years ago to begin to organize a "Resistance in Occupied France" kind of thing.  What stopped me is that I'm not sure how well I'd use divination.  Buffing and sniping is pretty straightforward, and I felt more comfortable with that.  As it is I will still have access to any divination spell I want and will gladly accept guidance about that.

Uncanny Forethought is seriously attractive, especially since I need to be flexible.  I've asked the DM if I can have it, and if yes, I'll be weighing it against Invisible Spell, or whatever else you guys suggest.

I'd go Human, with:
Wizard 1/Spellthief 1/Wizard +4/Spellwarp Sniper 1, if you're set on spellwarp sniper.
1)Spell Mastery H)Uncanny Forethought F)Extend B)Point Blank Shot(Using the UA ACF that lets you trade wizard bonus feats for fighter feats
2)Persistent Spell
3)Master Spellthief
6)Versatile Spellcaster

Elven generalist+domain wizard=early 9s. I don't think your DM will be too happy 'bout that. But, even if you don't go that route, the combo is really nice. I just don't see what it has to do with believing in Nexus.
  What does early 9's mean?  I just found out about the whole racial substitution levels yesterday.

A warlock is actually great for a starting/just getting back into the groove player.
I seriously considered it.  It's thematically appropriate, and invocations are so cool, but I've done that.  I wanted to try something different.  As for random dips into other things, I'm trying to limit how much sampling I do.  He could easily argue that Arcane users don't know each other because that invites someone to rat you out.  It would be so much harder to find someone to show you the ropes for each new thing than it would to have a few trusted friends.

Spellwarp sniper is good, but ray spells mean ray deflection (spell compendium). Also effective with warlocks but not so much with adepts.
  It's a wiz/sorc only spell, so I don't think I'll be seeing it too often, and I do have options other than rays.  Not to mention that in the group I expect to see, I won't be the one to worry about.  Are there good strategies for getting around it in case I get screwed?

With the build you're looking at, you'll have to check to see if master spellthief will be applicable, since you're not technically a caster with only one level of spellthief (I know the boards count it, but your DM is using house rules, so I'd check first)

As for spell mastery...it's good if you know your DM will take your spellbook away. That's about it. If so, take a trawl through the boards for first level spells... s/he is allowing you to pick your first spells, yes? If not, it may be a waste.
I think you might be right.  I might need to swap Master Spellthief to the 6th level slot.  Level 2 spells is the pre-req if I recall, and I wouldn't have those by level 3. 

I fully expect spellbooks to be taken, left behind in an emergency, and destroyed.  They're such an easy way to recognize and penalize wizards.  My next stop is the spell book handbook to see what I can do to ease the problem.  Magic items are going to be set at a dear price, so I don't expect to see too many of them unless we take them off the church.  Having my own metamagic options is going to be important.

I do still heartily recommend Dragonfire adept for the low maintenance, though if you're willing to jump in with a wizzy, go for it, they can be a blast for versatility. Just be careful, because those spells you get per level may be all you're seeing. A dose of collegiate wiz wouldn't hurt (bringing it to wiz1/spellthief1/wix 4/spellwarp whatever) to increase those.
I'm pretty set on having spellthief be first for the massive skillpoint boost.  If it weren't for master spellthief, I'd have gone rogue for even more skill points.  I firmly believe that being able to fall back on mundane ways of doing things is going to be key, and keep me alive.

Extend Spell is for improving the duration of long-lasting spells, so you can cast them today, rest, and get back your slots.  A Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell will do just fine most the time, thereby saving you a feat.  You could go with Eschew Material Components if you were very paranoid, but it's up to you.
I thought about it, but the DM has said that material components that have no cost can just be assumed.  That kind of limits Eschew's power, and although it is STILL better, I don't think it's a feat slot better.  It would still be a gateway to those metamagics that require you to have one, but having Extend seems safer.  Especially if my stuff gets taken away.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 11:10:24 AM by AugustusGloop »
Feat: Invisible Spell.  Cast invisible invisible stalker.  Cast invisible invisibility on the invisible invisible stalker.  Have an invisible invisible invisible invisible stalker.  Divide by 0.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2012, 11:28:47 AM »
It's a shame dragon mag can't be used.  There's a wizard ACF in 357 called Eidetic Spellcaster that trades your familiar and Scribe Scroll for the ability to use your mind as a spellbook.  I suspect familiars wouldn't be looked upon favorably, so trading one away for something would be useful.

The ways to get around Ray Deflection are either Dispel Magic or just not using rays.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 11:31:28 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline dipolartech

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2012, 11:44:54 AM »
If you don't have eschew materials, then you have a spell component pouch.... if you have a spell component pouch then you are an arcane caster.... which every person in the city is supposed to fear and hate with a passion far exceeding sense.... so now you have two physical objects (if you are a preparing spell class) that screams "kill me". You're just asking for your DM to gip you whenever he feels like it by saying "oh well some person in the street reported seeing you with a suspicious looking fanny pack and a box the perfect size for a book to be in" and getting attacked.

This scenario just has DM fiat written all over it. I just hope you don't end up with in a situation with the DM thinking "Whelp, they've completely smashed the last 13 encounters, adn they are hidden in a basement of a building lined with lead, in a completely abandoned city block, better send in CR+5 cleric strike team to "challenge" them"

Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2012, 11:47:09 AM »
Okay, I think you should read this. Wizards are crap at blasting. If your intent is to deal damage, I either recommend Sorcerer, or MAYBE an Ultimate Magus build. And wizards doing what they are good at can be very subtle. Make less of a mess than fighters.

Maybe I was a little unclear on what it does. I REALLY suck at explaining things. It gives you every divination for free. No spell book, no anything, and you can turn any slot into any divination. It means you don't need to make room in your spellbook for divination.

Early 9s means getting 9th level spells early.

Offline darqueseid

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2012, 11:58:01 AM »
if you have your heart set on sniper I guess there's no changing that, but I guess what I'm trying to get across is you can do powerful arcane things and not have to be a wizard. 

Your focusing on the wizard aspect of things and a wizard is fine, but a bard may be able to do everything your wanting and, oh by the way he can cast spells as a performance, masking things.  A Psion can suppress all obvious manifestation of his powers.  Whereas if your a wizard as soon as you cast a spell, anyone with Spellcraft will know that you are an arcane caster. 

I'm just trying to get across that a bard or Psion is a better way to get to do what you want to do within the limits of your game world. AND your gonna be contributing different things to the party that the other characters can't do.  Oh and btw they both get lots of skill points too.

In the end, go with what you're happy with, you expressed concern about duplicating the other party members earlier, I'm just warning you that you will, if you choose this build.  Don't be surprised when you begin to feel like a 5th wheel.

On improved initiative: one of the best things a wizard can get is warning +eager enchantments on his weapon, whatever it may be.  Those enchantments may take up valuable +1 spots on a weapon that a warrior carries, but for a wizard you rarely actually use your weapon to fight things. 
together they provide a +7 bonus to initiative, that, added together with your dex and nerveskitter should get you around a +15 bonus to initiative.  Sure you can take imp initiative,  and make that a +19-20 but is it really necessary?  most monsters will have something like a +7 to initiative at that level, max, and most clerics are gonna be worse than that.  Even if they have improved init your still beating them around 70% of the time you can use a feat to make that 90% but trust us when we tell you, there are better things to do with your feats than a mere 20% bonus to initiative.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 12:00:46 PM by darqueseid »

Offline linklord231

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2012, 12:04:30 PM »
Regarding multiclassing or "dipping":  in 3.5, you don't actually need a trainer to teach you your class.  A 12th level barbarian can wake up one day, and decide "you know what's cool?  Magic.  I'm gonna take my 13th level in Wizard," and then he can jolly well do that - even though yesterday he couldn't even read.  Some people find that silly, but that's how it works.  The exceptions are Prestige Classes like Assassin or Mage of the Arcane Order that have a prerequisite that specifically says you must be a member of a certain guild, or Ur Priest, which says flat out "the character must be trained by another Ur Priest."

Early 9's means early access to 9th level spells.  He's using the Versatile Spellcaster along with Spontaneous Divination to be able to break down 2 8th level spells in order to spontaneously cast a 9th level Divination spell.  Then since Elven Generalist says you can prepare an additional spell "of the highest level you can cast", you can prepare one 9th level spell at level 15 (beyond the 9th level Divination). 
If you go for the Master Spellthief + Spellwarp Sniper idea, this would allow you to keep your spellcasting at the same level as your party mates.  Normally I would say this trick is probably too powerful for actual games, but if someone is using Incantatrix...

I'm fairly certain that spellbooks were intended as a way to handicap wizards when they were first invented, but they really aren't any more.  There's a spell called Secret Page that allows you to make a spell look like a different spell.  Cast that on a random scroll you find, and then memorize any spell you want.  Don't stress out about your spellbook too much.

Seriously though, have you seen the Beguiler class from PHB2?  It sounds like exactly what you're looking for.  An abundance of subtle magic (built-in Still and Silent spell), 6+Int skill points on an Int-based caster...
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2012, 12:29:46 PM »
As I've mentioned repeatedly, if I were going for a sniper type I wouldn't go for a Transmuter.  I'd focus on blasting and debuffing.  That's either Spellwarp Sniper or Unseen Seer, depending on whether you really want to take advantage of Spellwarping.  Or, both depending on how long the campaign goes on.  I'd say go Sorc as something like Shadow Conjuration/Invocation and Minor creation can give you huge flexibility.  Wizard + Uncanny Forethought isn't bad, either.

@Darqueseid and Incantatrixes
Saying that a build is less powerful than a Wizard/Incantatrix is like saying a car is slower than a Bugatti Veyron.  They all are.  If you're playing a game where you are worried about keeping up with an Incantatrix, then you're playing a very high OP game. 

That being said, I wouldn't compete with the Incantatrix at whatever it is that is their bailiwick.  They tend to be good at buffing with Persistent Spell, etc., though that doesn't mean you shouldn't have the occasional buff, especially something as awesome and utility-oriented like Polymorph. 

If you've read the handbooks, then I think you will be fine.  I don't think early 9s or full god wizardry is a necessity.  A blasting debuffer character can be awesomely powerful, even if it's not the Veyron of builds.  Personally, I would sidestep things like a Psion.  If you've agreed to play this kind of Veiled Alliance/Inquisition game, then I'd say just embrace it. 

Oh, and if you want to have your cake and eat it too -- i.e., blast the hell out of people AND be subtle -- there's Invisible Spell.  Your DM has to let you ignore the Sorcerers suck at metamagic bullshit.  But, seriously, he should b/c that rule is fucking stupid.

My humble 2 cents worth.

Offline AugustusGloop

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2012, 01:31:46 PM »
If you don't have eschew materials, then you have a spell component pouch.... if you have a spell component pouch then you are an arcane caster.... 
That's absolutely true, and an amazing argument for Eschew Materials.  Extend I could pick up on a minor rod or something, although my cash is limited to 9k gold.  I'll take another look at Eschew.

This scenario just has DM fiat written all over it. I just hope you don't end up with in a situation with the DM thinking "Whelp, they've completely smashed the last 13 encounters, adn they are hidden in a basement of a building lined with lead, in a completely abandoned city block, better send in CR+5 cleric strike team to "challenge" them"
I'm not as upset about DM Fiat as most players would be.  DFRPG is almost exclusively played by fiat, although with a lot more decision making power in the players' hands, the GM still has the final say.  I am not going to worry about my character getting screwed with to improve the story.  In fact, I welcome a tough game with an engaging storyline.  The DM seems tough and willing to stick to his guns.  I find that better than one who tolerates argument about what the rules actually mean, or who sticks to the adventure as written despite finding out that it's badly mismatched to the players.  That said, I hope he doesn't tailor a team to pick off the weak link because that is probably going to be me!


On improved initiative: one of the best things a wizard can get is warning +eager enchantments on his weapon, whatever it may be.  Those enchantments may take up valuable +1 spots on a weapon that a warrior carries, but for a wizard you rarely actually use your weapon to fight things. 
together they provide a +7 bonus to initiative, that, added together with your dex and nerveskitter should get you around a +15 bonus to initiative.  Sure you can take imp initiative,  and make that a +19-20 but is it really necessary?  most monsters will have something like a +7 to initiative at that level, max, and most clerics are gonna be worse than that.  Even if they have improved init your still beating them around 70% of the time you can use a feat to make that 90% but trust us when we tell you, there are better things to do with your feats than a mere 20% bonus to initiative.
Now that's a very interesting idea.  Warning (according to the MIC) requires that the weapon be held, but I suppose I'd rarely not be holding a bow, even if an arrow isn't nocked.  Oops, except that a weapon has to be at least +2 to have Warning, and that's 8,000 (by market price, who knows how much it will be in this game?) gold, leaving me with 1000 for everything else.  Any other ideas?


As I've mentioned repeatedly, if I were going for a sniper type I wouldn't go for a Transmuter.  I'd focus on blasting and debuffing.  That's either Spellwarp Sniper or Unseen Seer, depending on whether you really want to take advantage of Spellwarping.  Or, both depending on how long the campaign goes on.  I'd say go Sorc as something like Shadow Conjuration/Invocation and Minor creation can give you huge flexibility.  Wizard + Uncanny Forethought isn't bad, either.
Buffing and debuffing are essentially equal right?  You're changing the power difference between you and the enemy, but debuffing is useless if there isn't an enemy.  Buffing can be good for all kinds of challenges.  Which isn't to say I won't be able to debuff.  There are plenty of rays and area spells that could become rays that carry damage and a debuff right?  I just prefer to focus on the buffing.

Oh, and if you want to have your cake and eat it too -- i.e., blast the hell out of people AND be subtle -- there's Invisible Spell.  Your DM has to let you ignore the Sorcerers suck at metamagic bullshit.  But, seriously, he should b/c that rule is fucking stupid.
oh god YES.  I'm seriously hoping that he allows invisible spell.  I used all my sweet talking skills and included a little sucking up.  It's from something called Cityscape though, which doesn't sound all that mainstream (is mainstream the right word?).  We'll see.

Regarding multiclassing or "dipping":  in 3.5, you don't actually need a trainer to teach you your class.  A 12th level barbarian can wake up one day, and decide "you know what's cool?  Magic.  I'm gonna take my 13th level in Wizard," and then he can jolly well do that - even though yesterday he couldn't even read.  Some people find that silly, but that's how it works.  The exceptions are Prestige Classes like Assassin or Mage of the Arcane Order that have a prerequisite that specifically says you must be a member of a certain guild, or Ur Priest, which says flat out "the character must be trained by another Ur Priest."
I guess I can see that, but I'm too far gone from D&D to be able to see it that mechanically.  There's a lot of hand waving that already goes on to represent the narrative of how your character got to be the way they are when the adventure starts, but that's one I'm going to avoid.  I like the idea of 2 classes and 1 or 2 prestige classes, and that's as far as I'm willing to go without a real compelling reason.

Early 9's means early access to 9th level spells.  He's using the Versatile Spellcaster along with Spontaneous Divination to be able to break down 2 8th level spells in order to spontaneously cast a 9th level Divination spell.  Then since Elven Generalist says you can prepare an additional spell "of the highest level you can cast", you can prepare one 9th level spell at level 15 (beyond the 9th level Divination). 
If you go for the Master Spellthief + Spellwarp Sniper idea, this would allow you to keep your spellcasting at the same level as your party mates.  Normally I would say this trick is probably too powerful for actual games, but if someone is using Incantatrix...
Yeah, I'm going to avoid this.  If he was willing to grant me back the one level of spells known I'm losing to spelltheif then ok, but I'm not going to ask.  Hopefully he'll realize that I'm actively avoiding uber.

I'm fairly certain that spellbooks were intended as a way to handicap wizards when they were first invented, but they really aren't any more.  There's a spell called Secret Page that allows you to make a spell look like a different spell.  Cast that on a random scroll you find, and then memorize any spell you want.  Don't stress out about your spellbook too much.
  Good thought.  Could it be disguised as poetry, or maybe a religious text that wasn't spells?

Seriously though, have you seen the Beguiler class from PHB2?  It sounds like exactly what you're looking for.  An abundance of subtle magic (built-in Still and Silent spell), 6+Int skill points on an Int-based caster...
I played one, and she was a ton of fun.  Enchanting feels like its going to get the beat stick though, since there are so many different ways to resist it.




So I've said it before, but thanks again to everyone for sticking with me despite my shooting down a lot of what you're suggesting.  I really appreciate the help, and I'm finding some serious gold in what you're saying.
Feat: Invisible Spell.  Cast invisible invisible stalker.  Cast invisible invisibility on the invisible invisible stalker.  Have an invisible invisible invisible invisible stalker.  Divide by 0.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2012, 01:35:29 PM »
Easier and cheaper than Warning is simply to buy a wand of Nerveskitter and keep it in a wand chamber in your weapon.
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2012, 03:01:13 PM »
You'll probably have issues with magic weapons since they require a +1 to start off before adding anything else like eager, flaming, etc.  Which means a warning weapon is actually equivalent to a +2 in price.

Keep in mind divine casters also use spell component pouches.  Animal Messenger has a material component for both arcane and divine casters for instance.  Admittedly the divine spells that require cheap components are relatively few, but they do exist.

Cityscape is one of the environmental supplements.  Others include Dungeonscape, Frostburn, Sandstorm, and Stormwrack.  Since your campaign looks like it takes place almost exclusively in a city, chances are Cityscape should get some love.

I wonder if you might start off as wizard or sorcerer, take the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane for the 2nd level spell, then levels in Warlock and go into Eldritch Theurge from Complete Mage.  That might give you enough from both sides to do what you want to.

Certain Reserve feats might also be useful to you.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 03:05:54 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2012, 03:22:12 PM »
...
As I've mentioned repeatedly, if I were going for a sniper type I wouldn't go for a Transmuter.  I'd focus on blasting and debuffing.  That's either Spellwarp Sniper or Unseen Seer, depending on whether you really want to take advantage of Spellwarping.  Or, both depending on how long the campaign goes on.  I'd say go Sorc as something like Shadow Conjuration/Invocation and Minor creation can give you huge flexibility.  Wizard + Uncanny Forethought isn't bad, either.
Buffing and debuffing are essentially equal right?  You're changing the power difference between you and the enemy, but debuffing is useless if there isn't an enemy.  Buffing can be good for all kinds of challenges.  Which isn't to say I won't be able to debuff.  There are plenty of rays and area spells that could become rays that carry damage and a debuff right?  I just prefer to focus on the buffing.
...
Buffing probably has a slight overall advantage over debuffing in a general sense.  There are few things that stop buffs, but debuffs do have to contend with enemy defenses. 

But, that assumes you have a good buff target.  In a party full or arcanists, this is probably not going to be the case.  Even if someone is going to gish it all up they will probably have buffs already running that won't stack with the ones you might want to use.  As I indicated in some of my earlier posts, the question isn't what's the most powerful.  The question is what is powerful enough.  Debuffing sure as hell is powerful enough. 

There are plenty of ranged and ray debuff options.  But, you said "I prefer to focus on the buffing."  So, ummm ... if that's the case why don't you build a buff-oriented character?  Sneaky sniper and party support mage aren't the same concept.  That's not to say that the sniper can't buff a little bit and the supporter can't blast a little bit.  But, it's a question of what you want to focus on. 

A character that focuses on buffing is going to have something like War Weaver or is going to dip into Sacred Exorcist and be an Illumian for cheap persistent spells.  Or, be an Anima Mage or take Spellguard of Silverymoon.  A sniper character is going to focus on stealth and damage ("delivering the mail") and unpleasant conditions. 

Offline brujon

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2012, 04:25:48 PM »
I realy think Beguiler is your cup of tea right here. With your restrictions, it's built in concealed spellcasting is just what you need. Combined with the skill tricks and Invisible Spell, you could be casting in the middle of a church and no one would even know wtf was going on. Spell Thematics is sure another way you could go about your business. Make them look like Divine spells instead of arcane. At least then, normal people won't instantly recognize you, although any priest with enough spellcraft will get it.
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Offline Endarire

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2012, 07:09:53 PM »
The Enervating Buffer may be just what you need!  If you want skills, consider Inspire Courage.  Rawr.

My previous post has itemization suggestions for you.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 07:23:25 PM by Endarire »

Offline Kerrus

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2012, 08:31:34 AM »
You may want to check if you can use setting specific material. Having a spellshard instead of a spellbook, for instance, may help you hide being an arcane caster better. Especially if you can get the 'jewel' set in a nice diadem or something and pass it off as fashion.


Alternatively, you could go as some sort of bard/exemplar diplomancer. With a high enough check you'd be able to turn the fearful hostile townsfolk into friends and allies.

Offline AugustusGloop

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2012, 10:43:22 PM »
Thank you everyone who contributed to this thread! Unfortunately my app wasn't picked to be in the game. The application deadline was suddenly moved up and I didn't have time to finish. Good luck with your games, hope this good karma is paid back soon!
Feat: Invisible Spell.  Cast invisible invisible stalker.  Cast invisible invisibility on the invisible invisible stalker.  Have an invisible invisible invisible invisible stalker.  Divide by 0.

Offline Endarire

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2012, 06:31:53 AM »
God will repay those who act in faith to serve Him.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: 3.5 Build Help Requested: A "survivor" Arcane Caster or Warlock.
« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2012, 11:23:25 PM »
Thank you everyone who contributed to this thread! Unfortunately my app wasn't picked to be in the game. The application deadline was suddenly moved up and I didn't have time to finish. Good luck with your games, hope this good karma is paid back soon!
Wow, that sucks, dude. Ah well, I'm sure you can find a game for your wizard sooner or later (maybe in a PbP on this board. High Arcana is always recruiting. :P ). I'd finish him, anyway.

There is a variant in UA (and the SRD) that can trade out wizard bonus feats for fighter bonus feats. This lets you trade out the free Scribe Scroll you get at level 1 for Improved Initiative, so you can basically have your cake and eat it too. If you prestige out into Master Specialist before 5th (or take the Spontaneous Divination ACF), you'll never miss those lost wizard bonus feats. Even if you don't, Martial Study and Martial Stance are fighter feats, and can get you some useful abilities.
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