The Codex of War - A Ground-Up Rewrite of the Tome of Battle [FEEDBACK PLEASE!]

[Ziegander]

And spiritual successor to The Warrior's Way. I'll more than likely be porting the thread over here eventually, but for now, I just wanted to link to it and let you all know that I have been working on something big. Hopefully some of you can give me some feedback, as, for now, over at GitP there hasn't been a lot of interest.

[Nanshork]

Yay, now I can comment on it.  I keep contemplating making a gitp account just to comment no homebrew over there but I never do.

Why did you do rounds per day for barbarian rage? 

[Ziegander]

Yay, now I can comment on it.  I keep contemplating making a gitp account just to comment no homebrew over there but I never do.

Hey, I'm just glad to have some more interest!

Why did you do rounds per day for barbarian rage?

Well, ideally, I think the Barbarian shouldn't have to do much of anything to trigger his Rage, but at the same time it doesn't seem like it should just be always on or anything. So, the notion that a Barbarian is only able to Rage once a day has always seemed really silly to me. Rounds per day gives the Barbarian more flexibility and control over his use of Rage while keeping it from being some always-on, passive ability.

But are there drawbacks/problems with rounds-per-day Rage that I'm not seeing?

[Nanshork]

My issue with rounds per day is that either you don't have enough rounds (a first level character with 18 con has five rounds of rage per day) or you do have enough rounds in general but you end up hoarding them in case you might need them later because you seem to be doing fine.

There isn't anything wrong with rounds per day, I just don't like them.

Honestly, my favorite barbarian rage mechanic is this one by EjoThims.

[Ziegander]

My issue with rounds per day is that either you don't have enough rounds (a first level character with 18 con has five rounds of rage per day) or you do have enough rounds in general but you end up hoarding them in case you might need them later because you seem to be doing fine.

There isn't anything wrong with rounds per day, I just don't like them.

Honestly, my favorite barbarian rage mechanic is this one by EjoThims.

The way I look at it, 5 rounds is more than enough to cover one encounter, which, especially at first level, typically last 3 rounds or so (if not less). A Barbarian with Con 16 gets 4 rounds per day, which is pretty equivalent to a 1/day Rage in terms of usage, except that the 4 rounds per day can be split up between two encounters as needed and the 1/day Rage can't.

Most Barbarian players I've seen hoard their Rages/day as well, unless they take Extra Rage (and there will be an analogous feat to add additional Rage rounds).

I don't understand EjoThims' Rage mechanic. Why grant additional Rages per encounter? Even if a Barbarian could only Rage 1/encounter, at 3 + Con modifier rounds a pop that might as well be, at the beginning of a Barbarian's first turn in an encounter he flies into a Rage. Until the end of the encounter, bla, bla... It's basically an always-on passive ability at that point, which I wanted to avoid.

I'd be all ears to some alternatives. Or maybe the always-on solution is the way to go. *shrug*

Any other thoughts on the material presented so far?

[Garryl]

Ejo's Rage isn't just a buff, it's a resource. You can toss yourself out of rage for various benefits, and you probably want to go back into rage as soon as you do so.

[Nanshork]

Also, Ejo's barbarian allows you to do multiple rages at the same time at higher levels.

[veekie]

One thing you can do with rounds/day rage. Get a high start, 3+Con/day, and scale fast (+1/level?). Then you add class abilities or activated powers that are fueled by rounds of rage as you go. This provides enough rage to do it for any serious encounter, plus the option to burn out faster for effects.

[Nanshork]

One thing you can do with rounds/day rage. Get a high start, 3+Con/day, and scale fast (+1/level?). Then you add class abilities or activated powers that are fueled by rounds of rage as you go. This provides enough rage to do it for any serious encounter, plus the option to burn out faster for effects.

I agree, if you're going to have rounds/day you should have something you can do with them besides just rage.

[Ziegander]

Good points, guys. What I think I'm going to do is simply write out Damage Resistance as a class feature at 2nd level, and open up all of the even class levels thereafter to new stuff. I think the Barbarian will remain the simplest of the three classes, but I am planning to offer more options, especially for Rage and for spending rounds of Rage/day with the new openings. Stay tuned!

[Ziegander]

Okay, well, the Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit stances have been edited, the Diamond Mind recovery method has been changed, and all of the full descriptions for the Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit maneuvers have been written! Phew! This is a lot of work. Anyway, please let me know what you think so far.

[Nanshork]

Barbarian Feedback
I see that you've made Rage more modular and you're coming up with rage powers.   

Fighter Feedback
Fighter Bonus Feat swapping: You need to explicitly say that either you choose the feat using your current stats for prerequisites or that you don't.  Right now it looks like I can be fourth level and swap out my first level bonus feat for a feat I qualify for due to being fourth level.

Advanced Training: Looks interesting, I'll try to keep an eye on how it develops.

Strategic Advantage:....I'm not sure how I feel about this.  It seems really cool but potentially hard to balance.

Paladin Feedback
Detect Evil: I like the always on but can't pinpoint aspect of it for both mechanical and flavor reasons.

Smite Evil: How will the changes interact with feats that affect smith evil?

Paladin Spells: I like adding Battle Blessing as a class ability, but why did you remove a lot of the spells that were on the paladin spell list like Magic Weapon?

Divine Grace: Not a dip anymore, I approve.

Nothing else calls out to me as something to be commented on, but I can go more in depth with the Paladin if you'd like.



Alright, moving on to other things.

Are the benefits from stances cumulative?  It looks like they are but you don't come right out and say it.

I'm surprised Style Training isn't a fighter bonus feat, but I can see how that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Power Attack:  Why the change?  It is just so different from any other version of Power Attack I've ever seen.

I just realized, maneuvers only have BAB requirements, they don't require you to know other maneuvers.  I can live with that.

Devoted Spirit stance talks about getting benefits if your BAB is high enough.   



Okay, I need to go eat so I'm done for now.

[Ziegander]

Barbarian Feedback
I see that you've made Rage more modular and you're coming up with rage powers.   

You like it so far? I'm not sure what stuff I'm going to slot into those higher open class levels, but I'll think of something. Any ideas for that initial, "If you choose Strength..." part of Rage?

Fighter Feedback
Fighter Bonus Feat swapping: You need to explicitly say that either you choose the feat using your current stats for prerequisites or that you don't.  Right now it looks like I can be fourth level and swap out my first level bonus feat for a feat I qualify for due to being fourth level.

Good point. The intention is that you can swap out a first level bonus feat for a feat you qualify for at 4th level.

Strategic Advantage:....I'm not sure how I feel about this.  It seems really cool but potentially hard to balance.

I could agree with that. My thought is that it's limited X/day based on a tertiary (at best) ability modifier and that it's the Fighter. Even powered up, what's the worst that could go wrong?

Paladin Feedback
Smite Evil: How will the changes interact with feats that affect smith evil?

All such feats will be rewritten. Feats are going to be a grand undertaking.

Paladin Spells: I like adding Battle Blessing as a class ability, but why did you remove a lot of the spells that were on the paladin spell list like Magic Weapon?

Only because the spell list is VERY, VERY incomplete. I haven't even gone through the published Paladin spell list. I think I'm going to have to write lots of new spells exclusively for the Paladin spell list, because I think half caster level actually makes sense for him, but at the same time I want his spells to actually matter, so it's going to be hard to develop the spell list.

Divine Grace: Not a dip anymore, I approve.

Yes, now Smite Evil is the most dippable feature of the Paladin, and even then it is hard to take advantage of just because Charisma is so useless to anybody that uses attacks to deal damage (without all of the other Charisma love that I give to the Paladin itself).

Nothing else calls out to me as something to be commented on, but I can go more in depth with the Paladin if you'd like.

At the moment, the Paladin feels much more complex than the other classes and more powerful as well. What are your thoughts on the matter (given that all three classes are far from complete)?

Are the benefits from stances cumulative?  It looks like they are but you don't come right out and say it.

I assume that you mean the benefits from a single Fighting Style's stance? If yes, then my answer is, at this stage in design, yes, they are meant to all be benefits of the same stance.

I'm surprised Style Training isn't a fighter bonus feat, but I can see how that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

That's actually just an oversight.

Power Attack:  Why the change?  It is just so different from any other version of Power Attack I've ever seen.

I wanted to move to something more easily comparable to Sneak Attack and to maneuvers, and this new version does that well, but more than that it also provides equal benefits to light, one-handed, and two-handed weapons.

I just realized, maneuvers only have BAB requirements, they don't require you to know other maneuvers.  I can live with that.

Not true, higher level maneuvers require that you know a certain number of maneuvers of the same style, and even that some of them be of a given level.

Devoted Spirit stance talks about getting benefits if your BAB is high enough.   

I keep missing this whenever I look at it. Can you quote the text?

[Nanshork]

Barbarian
For the Barbarian, maybe something like "If you choose Strength you may treat all attacks with light or one-handed weapons as two-handed weapons.  If you are already using a two-handed weapon then you may add twice your strength bonus to damage instead of one and a half."

Fighter
Strategic Advantage: I agree that it probably can't be horrible.  Just remember it can be used for maneuvers.

Paladin
Ahh, the spell list isn't complete.  That explains it.

I agree, the paladin is much more complex than the others.  It probably is more powerful too, though I'm not sure how much more.


Yes, I meant all of the benefits listed under the same stance.  You should probably make a note that you gain all of the benefits that you qualify for.

Glad to see that Style Training will be a fighter bonus feat, that will power it up.

I shouldn't comment about the maneuvers before I actually look at the text for them.   

....I have no idea what I was talking about with the Devoted Spirit stance...

[Ziegander]

Barbarian
For the Barbarian, maybe something like "If you choose Strength you may treat all attacks with light or one-handed weapons as two-handed weapons.  If you are already using a two-handed weapon then you may add twice your strength bonus to damage instead of one and a half."

If you choose Strength then you're already gaining a bonus to damage. I'd like to avoid a benefit that strictly adds moar damage. Maybe an effect that treats you as one size category larger for the purpose of making strength-based ability checks? I'm not sure I like that a lot either.

Fighter
Strategic Advantage: I agree that it probably can't be horrible.  Just remember it can be used for maneuvers.

Of course.

Paladin
Ahh, the spell list isn't complete.  That explains it.

Yeah, it needs a lot of work.

I agree, the paladin is much more complex than the others.  It probably is more powerful too, though I'm not sure how much more.

Okay. It'll be easier to gauge this once I get the other classes options rounded out.

You should probably make a note that you gain all of the benefits that you qualify for.

I thought I had, but I'll try to add a reminder.

Glad to see that Style Training will be a fighter bonus feat, that will power it up.

Yeah, part of the point was to make the Fighter the "best" class for Fighting Styles.

I shouldn't comment about the maneuvers before I actually look at the text for them.   

Please do take a look at the specific maneuvers. You'll be among the first to do so!

....I have no idea what I was talking about with the Devoted Spirit stance...

Oh, don't worry, before you replied I finally found it and got rid of that sentence.

[Nanshork]

For Barbarian, maybe Powerful Build?  Or Powerful Build without the ability to use larger weapons?

I'll take a look at the maneuvers when I get home from work and have the time.

Glad to see I wasn't being crazy about Devoted Spirit.   

[Ziegander]

Or Powerful Build without the ability to use larger weapons?

That was kind of my thought, because it would be obnoxious to carry around a larger weapon that you can only use while raging, but I'm still not thrilled about that ability.

I'll take a look at the maneuvers when I get home from work and have the time.

Thanks very much!

[Nanshork]

Maneuvers Feedback
I'll only talk about something if I think there's a potential issue.

Empowering Strike seems meh for 8 hours of fatigue.

Why doesn't Devoted Spirit get any healing until 11th level?


Nothing else pops out at me.

[Ziegander]

Empowering Strike seems meh for 8 hours of fatigue.

Well, by the time it comes online ways to remove Fatigue aren't hard to come by. In fact, following Empowered Strike with Revitalizing Strike (3rd level) will get rid of the Fatigue if you connect.

Why doesn't Devoted Spirit get any healing until 11th level?

It gets its first healing boost at 3rd level, Crusader's Cause.

Nothing else pops out at me.

Does that mean you more or less like the rest of the maneuvers? What do you think about the new 9th level Strikes?

[Nanshork]

I didn't think of that combo, nevermind then.

...I don't know how I missed Crusader's Cause.  Information overload is the current theory.

9th level maneuvers:

Inferno Blast, happy to see it isn't all fire damage.  Blown Away, very nice.  Not sure about balance, but it looks damn cool.

Strike of Infinite Piety: damage, debuff, buff.  Individually the effects all seem meh for the level, but together they're probably balanced.

Like I've said before, I'm not the best at judging for balance (or I don't trust myself to be, same effect in the end) so you should probably finagle some more feedback.