Author Topic: Building a Bard  (Read 10136 times)

Offline Rokugan

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Building a Bard
« on: August 25, 2012, 08:55:35 AM »
Hello everybody

I'm about to join a running campaign.
I decided to play a Monk and I will like to build it for battlefield control.
Level start for me is 7, we can use just the PhB and every complete.

Ability scores to distribute:
18
16
14
13
8
8


I need a simple build that include improved grapple and trip. I want to play as a human.

Standard Feats:
Improved natural attack
Weapon finesse
[Empty slot]
[Empty slot]

Bonus feats:
Improved grapple
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip

I'm quite a new player and i'm in need for some good tips :) 
You have my thanks in advance (and my apologizes for my bad english).
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 02:57:08 PM by Rokugan »

Offline Pencil

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2012, 09:04:16 AM »
1. Don`t play a monk.

2.Refer to 1.

3.Improved natural attack does not work since with improved unarmed strike the body of the monk does not count as a natural attack but as a weapon.

Jokes aside.If you want to play martial bfc just go fighter with a spiked chain or something which does that better than the monk in almost every regard imo.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2012, 09:08:51 AM »
First, make the DM agree that the monk gets proficiency with his unarmed attack (they don't by RAW, which is stupid as hell).

Second:
3.Improved natural attack does not work since with improved unarmed strike the body of the monk does not count as a natural attack but as a weapon.
Pencil is wrong here because:
Quote from: The SRD
Unarmed Strike
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2012, 09:09:48 AM »
It's a good thing you came to these boards -- monks around here are a little bit of a joke.  They have a collection of class features that don't work well together, and the class features sound much cooler than they actually are.  It's one of the most dysfunctional classes in the game.

Now, if your DM is willing to approve one of the many Monk fixes out there (I'd recommend the one by dman11235), then we can talk.  Other than that, what is it that you like about the monk?  If it's the flavor, then happily there are lots of ways to build a character with that flavor.
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Offline Pencil

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2012, 09:20:44 AM »
First, make the DM agree that the monk gets proficiency with his unarmed attack (they don't by RAW, which is stupid as hell).

Second:
3.Improved natural attack does not work since with improved unarmed strike the body of the monk does not count as a natural attack but as a weapon.
Pencil is wrong here because:
Quote from: The SRD
Unarmed Strike
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

I am deeply ashamed.Sorry.  :blush
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Offline brujon

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2012, 09:27:07 AM »
Monks are only good as a 2-level dip to get good starting saves and feats that trump pre-requisites, or in a King of Smack build, with Monastic Training + Tashalatora to stack your monk levels with Psychic Warrior levels. A good other thing you can do is play an Unarmed Swordsage (variant from ToB), which is almost the same flavor and gets you a buttload of cool stuff you can do, being low-tier 3 as opposed  to the tier 5 monk.

Battlefield control with melee needs reach, a way to threaten adjacent squares as well as the squares within your expanded reach (so just a reach weapon doesn't work), and a way to penalize your enemies for moving (so, stand still or high damage on AOO's).

The vanila monk does neither of these things. You may be thinking "But they get high move speed and get improved grapple and such! I can run and pin my opponents...". No. Grapple mechanics are highly biased towards monsters because of their size, and the monk himself has no way to boost his grapple high enough to win against most things size Large or larger. So he kinda auto-fails on battlefield control altogether. "No, no no! Mr. Brujon! But they get Stunning Fist, and stun is strong as hell!" well, you're right about stun being strong, but the DC is pitifully weak, and at the level you get it, it's already subpar, and only getting weaker as you level up. Plus, spellcasters have no-save stuns and other ways of pumping AREA save or loses that just plain outshine every melee BFC build other than the Crackdown Crusader (Which manages all of the pre-requisites for melee BFC outlined on the first paragraph).


Let's recap:

1 - Monk has two methods to deliver BFC. High movespeed + Grapple or High movespeed + Stunning Fist.

2 - The first is a trap because you depend on magic gear/magical buffs to get a high enough grapple to win against Large or Larger monsters. And you do not get full bab either.

3 - The second is a trap because you can't get your DC high enough, and at the level you get it, spellcasters already excel at BFC with higher DC's than you could possibly get with Monk.


Some specific builds can benefit from going 6 level monk, because of some of the ACF's available to them, most just get 2 for the bonus feats which ignore pre-reqs and the easy unarmed strike proficiency/exotic weapon proficiencies monk gets. If you're willing to work with something that only has 2 or 6 levels of monk but can KICK ASS at BFC and fluff it as a monk, then we can work with you, but if you want to go pure monk... Then i fear you may have to prepare a second character sheet as backup.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2012, 09:34:01 AM »
I am deeply ashamed.Sorry.  :blush

[sarcasm]
Ohs NOOOOOOOOOS!
You missed out on a way to optimize the MONK!
How dare you!
[/sarcasm] :rolleyes

You may be thinking "But they get high move speed and get improved grapple and such! I can run and pin my opponents...". No. Grapple mechanics are highly biased towards monsters because of their size, and the monk himself has no way to boost his grapple high enough to win against most things size Large or larger.

Brujon forgot to mention Freedom of Movement = immunity to grapple, and even small monsters usually get bonuses to Escape Artist, which let them get out of grapples too.

I agree with SirP that you should ask about dman's Monk fix, but another point is to visit dman's Monk Handbook, because seriously, it has all the advise any of us could offer and then some with the information you've provided.

By "information you've provided" I mean:
Who all is already in the campaign / is also joining (characters, not the players, obviously)?
What kind of campaign is it? (lots of battles per day; mostly RP; investgative; wilderness; urban; &al.)
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2012, 09:36:13 AM »
Don't listen to these guys. Monks are great! So great they've printed it in two different books. Weird thing is, they've made typos in the names of them, though that's par for the course for WotC. Names read "Psychic Warrior" and "Swordsage." Weird, but whatever, WotC.

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2012, 09:43:43 AM »
Don't listen to these guys. Monks are great! So great they've printed it in two different books. Weird thing is, they've made typos in the names of them, though that's par for the course for WotC. Names read "Psychic Warrior" and "Swordsage." Weird, but whatever, WotC.

I really, really want to agree with you. And I normally would. Except:
we can use just the PhB and every complete.
Which does not include XPH or ToB. (Though I regard XPH as core, as does the SRD)
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Offline Cyclone Joker

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2012, 09:59:28 AM »
Which does not include XPH or ToB. (Though I regard XPH as core, as does the SRD)
And all Completes includes Complete Psionics, which is near-useless without XPH, therefore I assumed that XPH was also included, just like I am assuming they're allowed the DMG for crap like Eldritch Knight, or what have you.

Offline Rokugan

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2012, 11:22:05 AM »
Thanks everybody for the replies.
I also forgot to mention that are allowed only base classes from the PhB.
Also there are currently 5 others players (Druid, wizard,sorcerer,rogue, cleric)
So i'm left with fighter, bard, barbarian, monk,paladin or ranger. Like i said i'm pretty noob; i've only played till level 5 with a cleric e few levels with a psion.
I really don't know, i feel that the group could use some can meat (like a fighter) but i've read so many times that it sucks.
I feel pretty much restricted with all these limitation. So, what can you guys reccomend me?
I know that is up to me to chose something to fit my playstyle, but i really don't have a playstyle but I tend more on versatile PC rather than a simple tank and spank.
If only i could, i'd play a factotum :D


P.S: I really don't care to play something uber optimized and OP. I prefer something that can lead to different cool roleplay situations. (but with that i don't mean i wanna sit in the middle of the fights doing nothing)

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2012, 11:51:45 AM »
Thanks everybody for the replies.
I also forgot to mention that are allowed only base classes from the PhB.
Also there are currently 5 others players (Druid, wizard,sorcerer,rogue, cleric)
So i'm left with fighter, bard, barbarian, monk,paladin or ranger. Like i said i'm pretty noob; i've only played till level 5 with a cleric e few levels with a psion.
I really don't know, i feel that the group could use some can meat (like a fighter) but i've read so many times that it sucks.
I feel pretty much restricted with all these limitation. So, what can you guys reccomend me?
I know that is up to me to chose something to fit my playstyle, but i really don't have a playstyle but I tend more on versatile PC rather than a simple tank and spank.
If only i could, i'd play a factotum :D


P.S: I really don't care to play something uber optimized and OP. I prefer something that can lead to different cool roleplay situations. (but with that i don't mean i wanna sit in the middle of the fights doing nothing)

Monk would sit in the middle doing nothing in most circumstances. In that party, you'd most likely end up being reduced to setting up the rogue's sneak attack.

Firstly, yes, the fighter sucks. The monk is much, much worse. Much. VERY MUCH. *ahem*
Second, is there only allowed to be one person per class?

It sounds like what you want is a melee character. But that's inference.

From the guide to Wizards, here are the party roles as most of us have come to understand them (written from the perspective of it being in a guide for Wizards, mind).
(click to show/hide)

So the real question here now is: What rolls do you want to fill?

Because, I'll be blunt, making a Monk useful, much less good, in a party with a Wizard, Cleric and Druid would require a lot of CO.

Tripping, Grappling, Damage, just the Druid out-matches anything you can at this level by a factor of 3 (your effectiveness, cubed). That could be swung a little in your favor if he is restricted to the forms in just the Monster Manual, and you were allowed full access to everything as a monk, but not even then would you be as good at those things as a Druid, you just wouldn't be as far behind him. This is nothing compared to what he could do if he, or the Wizard, were actually trying.

EDIT: Just to clarify: I do think this can be done (a monk in the party). We are a character optimization community. We could get a request for how to have a core-only Commoner be effective in a party with a Wizard, and one of us or another would manage something. So, I guess there are a few questions to be added in:
  • How tied to the Monk are you?
  • Does this group have a rule about not over-lapping base classes? (note: you can be in the same class as someone and be doing an entirely different role in the party with it.)
  • You already inferred a non-committal point ("don't really have a playstyle") to this question, but I'll directly ask it just to be sure: Which party roles most interest you?
  • Is SRD allowed?
  • Are Psionics allowed?
  • Is there a way you could bully your DM into allowing the Factotum? :)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 12:08:57 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Rokugan

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2012, 12:26:42 PM »
Thanks everybody for the replies.
I also forgot to mention that are allowed only base classes from the PhB.
Also there are currently 5 others players (Druid, wizard,sorcerer,rogue, cleric)
So i'm left with fighter, bard, barbarian, monk,paladin or ranger. Like i said i'm pretty noob; i've only played till level 5 with a cleric e few levels with a psion.
I really don't know, i feel that the group could use some can meat (like a fighter) but i've read so many times that it sucks.
I feel pretty much restricted with all these limitation. So, what can you guys reccomend me?
I know that is up to me to chose something to fit my playstyle, but i really don't have a playstyle but I tend more on versatile PC rather than a simple tank and spank.
If only i could, i'd play a factotum :D


P.S: I really don't care to play something uber optimized and OP. I prefer something that can lead to different cool roleplay situations. (but with that i don't mean i wanna sit in the middle of the fights doing nothing)

Monk would sit in the middle doing nothing in most circumstances. In that party, you'd most likely end up being reduced to setting up the rogue's sneak attack.

Firstly, yes, the fighter sucks. The monk is much, much worse. Much. VERY MUCH. *ahem*
Second, is there only allowed to be one person per class?

It sounds like what you want is a melee character. But that's inference.

From the guide to Wizards, here are the party roles as most of us have come to understand them (written from the perspective of it being in a guide for Wizards, mind).
(click to show/hide)

So the real question here now is: What rolls do you want to fill?

Because, I'll be blunt, making a Monk useful, much less good, in a party with a Wizard, Cleric and Druid would require a lot of CO.

Tripping, Grappling, Damage, just the Druid out-matches anything you can at this level by a factor of 3 (your effectiveness, cubed). That could be swung a little in your favor if he is restricted to the forms in just the Monster Manual, and you were allowed full access to everything as a monk, but not even then would you be as good at those things as a Druid, you just wouldn't be as far behind him. This is nothing compared to what he could do if he, or the Wizard, were actually trying.

EDIT: Just to clarify: I do think this can be done (a monk in the party). We are a character optimization community. We could get a request for how to have a core-only Commoner be effective in a party with a Wizard, and one of us or another would manage something. So, I guess there are a few questions to be added in:
  • How tied to the Monk are you?
  • Does this group have a rule about not over-lapping base classes? (note: you can be in the same class as someone and be doing an entirely different role in the party with it.)
  • You already inferred a non-committal point ("don't really have a playstyle") to this question, but I'll directly ask it just to be sure: Which party roles most interest you?
  • Is SRD allowed?
  • Are Psionics allowed?
  • Is there a way you could bully your DM into allowing the Factotum? :)

1: not at all :)
2: Yes
3: I'd like to play a versatile PC, mainly the face of the group but with some combat utility.
4: uhm, maybe?
5: nope =(
6: I don't know, maybe is worth a try, but i don't think this would be possible.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2012, 12:39:21 PM »
You want a bard.  Bards can be very fun and effective.
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Offline ClayQ

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2012, 01:04:24 PM »

1: not at all :)
2: Yes
3: I'd like to play a versatile PC, mainly the face of the group but with some combat utility.
4: uhm, maybe?
5: nope =(
6: I don't know, maybe is worth a try, but i don't think this would be possible.
You want a bard.  Bards can be very fun and effective.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2012, 01:17:04 PM »

1: not at all :)
2: Yes
3: I'd like to play a versatile PC, mainly the face of the group but with some combat utility.
4: uhm, maybe?
5: nope =(
6: I don't know, maybe is worth a try, but i don't think this would be possible.
You want a bard.  Bards can be very fun and effective.
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Offline Noliar

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2012, 01:52:09 PM »
With four full casters you should have BFC covered. The group looks very dependent on the druid for providing BSFs although the cleric might go self buffing too. Now, druids are pretty good at that and what with summons, animal companion and wildshape there will normally be plenty for bardic music to boost but one failed save or an antimagic field will make most of the melee go bye-bye.

A bardbarian build that takes the fop role out of combat and in combat prefers to be an archer/ buffer but can mix it in an emergency (keep singing as you rage) could contribute well in that party. Bards get more valuable the larger the party - hirelings, henchmen, followers, familiars and companions all become more useful while you are around so encourage them even to the extent of taking on the bookkeeping. If you are OOC a tactical thinker then the bard is a very reasonable IC person to be providing leadership and coordination (you can expect to be constantly reminding your your fellow players to count the bonuses you are providing anyway.)

Offline Rokugan

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2012, 02:03:26 PM »
So how you guys suggest to build that bard?  (is there a way to edit the title of the thread? XD)

Offline Libertad

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2012, 02:07:00 PM »
The Bard's Handbook here is a good starting point for optimizing the Bard.

Speaking of optimization, what's the average "power" level of your group?

Offline Rokugan

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Re: Building a Monk (battlefield control)
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2012, 02:12:02 PM »
The Bard's Handbook here is a good starting point for optimizing the Bard.

Speaking of optimization, what's the average "power" level of your group?

i really can't tell you cause i spoke just today with the DM so i had just basical informations. I only know that they had 76 point total in the beginning.