Building a Bard

[ariasderros]

The Bard's Handbook here is a good starting point for optimizing the Bard.

Speaking of optimization, what's the average "power" level of your group?

i really can't tell you cause i spoke just today with the DM so i had just basical informations. I only know that they had 76 point total in the beginning.

That. Can. Not. Mean. What. I. Think. It. Does.

Especially with your stats being what they are.

Ability scores to distribute:
18
16
14
13
8
8

Is this what you rolled?
Did your DM tell you to roll?
And most importantly:
Did he tell you 76 points?

[Rokugan]

The Bard's Handbook here is a good starting point for optimizing the Bard.

Speaking of optimization, what's the average "power" level of your group?

i really can't tell you cause i spoke just today with the DM so i had just basical informations. I only know that they had 76 point total in the beginning.

That. Can. Not. Mean. What. I. Think. It. Does.

Especially with your stats being what they are.

Ability scores to distribute:
18
16
14
13
8
8

Is this what you rolled?
Did your DM tell you to roll?
And most importantly:
Did he tell you 76 points?

He told me 76, I rolled and then cut off few points. The 18 is actually a 17 plus the bonus on level 4.

[Solo]

Here's a core monk if you still want it, though you will never be the party face. I mean, you need Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, with a smattering of Int to fuel your skills. Cha is your only viable dump stat.

Now, Bards on the other hand...

[Libertad]

Rokugan, ariasderros is referring to the Point Buy System.

Your ability scores if added together, add up to 76.  However, under the Point Buy System, your ability scores will cost 34 points.  Are you rolling for ability scores, or "buying" them?

Point Buy System:

ability score	point cost
8	0
9	1
10	2
11	3
12	4
13	5
14	6
15	8
16	10
17	13
18	16

Hope this clears up any confusion!

As to only knowing basic information about the group, do you personally know any of them?  Outside of the game, are you friends with any of them, or are they relative strangers?  If you know them, do you know if any of them are casual gamers, newcomers, or "beer and pretzels" type of players?  Or do they really get into building characters and the game mechanics?

[ariasderros]

Some things then:

Fist: to change the Topic title, choose to "modify" your first post.

Second: My personal preference for the available resources would be either strait bard, or Devoted Performer for Pally-Bard (much better saves & healing). Especially the first time you trigger Smite from a casting of Whirling Blade with a high Charisma. You, uh, don't miss, and they don't live.

Third: Check with your DM about the SRD, I personally prefer Savage Bard and Divine Bard better (Divine especially works better with Pally-Bards). Human Paragon isn't a bad choice either if you decide to go strait bard otherwise.

Fourth: Ask about the Spell Compendium, and the Magic Item Compendium.

EDIT:
@ Solo, he can't take Song of the Heart. That's in Eberron.

[muktidata]

1) Just to double check with you, Rokugan, you're saying that the Monster Manual, Dungeon Master's Guide, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and Unearthed Arcana are disallowed to the players? That's going to make spontaneously casting Summon Nature's Ally and Wild Shaping hard for the Druid since he won't have a book to choose his Animals from. You guys will be left with just the Completes to choose magical equipment from? Harsh.

2) Can you take Prestige Classes out of the Completes?

3) There are a few tricks you could do with a Monk that you might enjoy. They're not completely useless as everyone suggests, but just very scattered on which attributes they need and are horribly puny compared to other classes. ariasderros said it well:

Because, I'll be blunt, making a Monk useful, much less good, in a party with a Wizard, Cleric and Druid would require a lot of CO.

4) Since you mentioned that you'd play a Fighter if they didn't suck, let me suggest Frenzied Berserker. Since you have access to the Complete Champion, you can use the Lion Spiritual Totem which grants you Pounce in place of Fast Movement. How about something like this:

Human

1 Barbarian - Lion Totem (Pounce), Rage 1/day, Illiteracy, [1 Power Attack], [B Cleave]
2 Barbarian - Uncanny Dodge
3 Fighter - [3 Intimidating Rage], [B Destructive Rage]
4 Fighter - Resolute
5 Fighter -
6 Fighter - [6 Improved Bull Rush], [B Shock Trooper]
7 Frenzied Berserker - Frenzy 1/Day, [B Diehard]

Books:
Lion Spiritual Totem ACF (Complete Champion p.46)
Resolute ACF (Complete Champion p.48)
Shock Trooper, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage (Complete Warrior feats section)

This would make you a very potent glass cannon with the ability to dish out tons of damage. You could take a -9 penalty to your AC when you charge to deal an extra +14 damage per hit and full attack at the end of it (which Frenzied Berserker gives you an extra strike when you full attack, so that'd be three attacks at weapon damage + STR x 1.5 + 14). You'd be able to Rage and Frenzy at the same time (save for when you know it's the big fight of the day) which grant untyped bonuses to Strength (which your Cleric/Wizard/Druid could buff further) and then use the Resolute Fighter ACF to help ensure you don't attack your allies when the fight's over (the one drawback of the Frenzied Berserker) and ask your allies to bump your Will Saves. At level 5 of the Frenzied Berserker, your Power Attack would deal an extra +33 damage per hit. With your Wizard and Cleric around to buff you, you'll be a flying grim reaper, destroying whatever you see in a single charge.

[Rokugan]

Rokugan, ariasderros is referring to the Point Buy System.

Your ability scores if added together, add up to 76.  However, under the Point Buy System, your ability scores will cost 34 points.  Are you rolling for ability scores, or "buying" them?

Point Buy System:

ability score	point cost
8	0
9	1
10	2
11	3
12	4
13	5
14	6
15	8
16	10
17	13
18	16

Hope this clears up any confusion!

As to only knowing basic information about the group, do you personally know any of them?  Outside of the game, are you friends with any of them, or are they relative strangers?  If you know them, do you know if any of them are casual gamers, newcomers, or "beer and pretzels" type of players?  Or do they really get into building characters and the game mechanics?

Yeah i know the difference   i meant that he told me that all ability scores summed up should give a 76 total, then i rolled anyway and fix where was needed. I played few sessions with 2 of them in another campaign. They are not new players but act like they are. Expecially one is the kind of gamers that goes "I loot this, i stole that, how much xp will that give to me?" etc.

1) Just to double check with you, Rokugan, you're saying that the Monster Manual, Dungeon Master's Guide, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and Unearthed Arcana are disallowed to the players? That's going to make spontaneously casting Summon Nature's Ally and Wild Shaping hard for the Druid since he won't have a book to choose his Animals from. You guys will be left with just the Completes to choose magical equipment from? Harsh.

2) Can you take Prestige Classes out of the Completes?

3) There are a few tricks you could do with a Monk that you might enjoy. They're not completely useless as everyone suggests, but just very scattered on which attributes they need and are horribly puny compared to other classes. ariasderros said it well:

Because, I'll be blunt, making a Monk useful, much less good, in a party with a Wizard, Cleric and Druid would require a lot of CO.

4) Since you mentioned that you'd play a Fighter if they didn't suck, let me suggest Frenzied Berserker. Since you have access to the Complete Champion, you can use the Lion Spiritual Totem which grants you Pounce in place of Fast Movement. How about something like this:

Human

1 Barbarian - Lion Totem (Pounce), Rage 1/day, Illiteracy, [1 Power Attack], [B Cleave]
2 Barbarian - Uncanny Dodge
3 Fighter - [3 Intimidating Rage], [B Destructive Rage]
4 Fighter - Resolute
5 Fighter -
6 Fighter - [6 Improved Bull Rush], [B Shock Trooper]
7 Frenzied Berserker - Frenzy 1/Day, [B Diehard]

Books:
Lion Spiritual Totem ACF (Complete Champion p.46)
Resolute ACF (Complete Champion p.48)
Shock Trooper, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage (Complete Warrior feats section)

This would make you a very potent glass cannon with the ability to dish out tons of damage. You could take a -9 penalty to your AC when you charge to deal an extra +14 damage per hit and full attack at the end of it (which Frenzied Berserker gives you an extra strike when you full attack, so that'd be three attacks at weapon damage + STR x 1.5 + 14). You'd be able to Rage and Frenzy at the same time (save for when you know it's the big fight of the day) which grant untyped bonuses to Strength (which your Cleric/Wizard/Druid could buff further) and then use the Resolute Fighter ACF to help ensure you don't attack your allies when the fight's over (the one drawback of the Frenzied Berserker) and ask your allies to bump your Will Saves. At level 5 of the Frenzied Berserker, your Power Attack would deal an extra +33 damage per hit. With your Wizard and Cleric around to buff you, you'll be a flying grim reaper, destroying whatever you see in a single charge.

1)Monster manuale and DMG are ok, spell and magic item compendium no.

2) yep, can take everything but base classes.

I have to consider what you wrote about that barbarian build, it's not properly my playstyle but i'm gonna consider it thanks for the info.

[ClayQ]

Destructive Rage isn't a fighter bonus feat.

Switch Destructive Rage and Cleave in the build.

Bards won't be as good without the supplements overall, however it will have the skills for your party face, and IC is still nice even if its not optimized to all hell. If you can get specific things from other sources allowed for the bard I'd try for the following things:

Nymphs Kiss [BoED]
Song of the Heart [ECS]

These two will give you a minor boost to IC and Skills plus Cha skill bonus to be the party face.

Words of Creation [BoED]
Dragonfire Inspiration [Dragon Magic]

These two are more questionable, honestly knowing your game they should be allowed but are likely to incur DM wrath if not asked for in the right way. Make sure you read and understand them yourself...

For a bard from the sources you've got and no more; I'd prolly go for

Bard/Paladin/War Chanter with Devoted Performer

Because of the lack of SpC spell goodness for the bard I'm focusing on the music abilities, and high BAB so you can still do BSF that your party needs.

[ariasderros]

Of course, if you can be evil.

Go for the dual 9's
Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord into Mystic Theurge. 

[Halinn]

Since monster manual is allowed, have you considered playing a choker?

[Rokugan]

I'm almost done building  my bard.
( I've also included 2 traits for him ^^)

My DM told me i have 21.000 gold pieces to spend as i prefer.
Any suggestions?



EDIT: i came up with this
Chocker of eloquence(minore): +5 diplomacy, bluff , perform (sing)   6k
Circlet of Persuasion: : +3 competence bonus on the wearer’s Charisma-based checks.   4,5k
Mithral chainmail+1:   +5CA   2k
Cloak of charisma:  +2 cha 4k monete
Mac-Fuirmidh Cithern: +2 perfmorm string +2 bardic music checks (fascinate, suggestion, countersong) / +1 level for bardic music related stuff  2,9k 
Cure light wounds, mage armor, sleep  1/ day

This would give me a +33 on my diplomacy check, :>

[Libertad]

I'm almost done building  my bard.
( I've also included 2 traits for him ^^)

My DM told me i have 21.000 gold pieces to spend as i prefer.
Any suggestions?



EDIT: i came up with this
Chocker of eloquence(minore): +5 diplomacy, bluff , perform (sing)   6k
Circlet of Persuasion: : +3 competence bonus on the wearer’s Charisma-based checks.   4,5k
Mithral chainmail+1:   +5CA   2k
Cloak of charisma:  +2 cha 4k monete
Mac-Fuirmidh Cithern: +2 perfmorm string +2 bardic music checks (fascinate, suggestion, countersong) / +1 level for bardic music related stuff  2,9k 
Cure light wounds, mage armor, sleep  1/ day

This would give me a +33 on my diplomacy check, :>

This is from the Magic Item Compendium, which you said was not allowed in your DM's games.

[Rokugan]

I'm almost done building  my bard.
( I've also included 2 traits for him ^^)

My DM told me i have 21.000 gold pieces to spend as i prefer.
Any suggestions?



EDIT: i came up with this
Chocker of eloquence(minore): +5 diplomacy, bluff , perform (sing)   6k
Circlet of Persuasion: : +3 competence bonus on the wearer’s Charisma-based checks.   4,5k
Mithral chainmail+1:   +5CA   2k
Cloak of charisma:  +2 cha 4k monete
Mac-Fuirmidh Cithern: +2 perfmorm string +2 bardic music checks (fascinate, suggestion, countersong) / +1 level for bardic music related stuff  2,9k 
Cure light wounds, mage armor, sleep  1/ day

This would give me a +33 on my diplomacy check, :>

This is from the Magic Item Compendium, which you said was not allowed in your DM's games.

Pretty sure I found that in the Complete Arcane page 149

[Libertad]

You're right.  My apologies.

Go nuts!