The Importance of Trained-Only Skills

[Endarire]

How important is it that certain skills be trained-only?  Knowledges, Open Lock, Disable Device, UMD, and Tumble are the ones that come to mind at present.

If we were to totally remove the notion of trained-only skills, allowing anyone to use these skills, how would balance change?

[veekie]

Mainly a slight weakening of skilled classes, and reduced verisimilitude. On the large scale it doesn't do much.
These skills are generally speaking, not needed for general activity, like Stealth, Perception or the movement skills tend to be. So its role protection, to prevent characters with high stats from covering the role of another character, and to limit the brute forcing of lower difficulty skill challenges by having everyone take a turn.

Verisimilitude meanwhile is just that these are supposed to be specialized skills that require specific knowledge and training to do at all.

[Cyclone Joker]

Only UMD has any balance concerns, and that's simply because UMD is UMD.

That said, I find it hard to believe a level 17 warblade, a guy who's fought things beyond beyond comprehension, and things that destroy worlds, can't identify a damned skeleton or golem. If removed, I don't see much of an impact.

[Tonymitsu]

Only UMD has any balance concerns, and that's simply because UMD is UMD.

That said, I find it hard to believe a level 17 warblade, a guy who's fought things beyond beyond comprehension, and things that destroy worlds, can't identify a damned skeleton or golem. If removed, I don't see much of an impact.

I don't know, I think it goes a little beyond that.
Putting Knowledge Devotion aside, which becomes infinitely more powerful if you can make the checks untrained:

As someone who routinely disguises monsters in games he runs, I can tell you that Knowledge of what you're fighting changes everything.

Anyone can look at a pile of moving white bones and know it's a skeleton. Knowledge skill represents the training or experience to look beyond the blatantly obvious.

The difference between knowing you're fighting an animated statue vs knowing it's a golem is huge. Only one of them is immune to magic after all.
There's also a big difference between fighting a fire elemental and a living burning hands spell.

And how can you tell that the legions of soldiers in full plate over there are skeletons without removing their helmets? The subtle nuances you observe that are the results of a successful Knowledge check. Now instead of actually trying to fight them you just have the cleric turn them.

And frankly, yes, if you are a 17th level warblade without any ranks in knowledges that identify monsters, your character is someone who doesn't bother learning from his experiences... which when you think about it isn't that hard to believe.

So aside from identifying monsters I see the notion of trained only as kind of a non-issue.  Any noteworthy checks with these skills are going to require you to put ranks in them to succeed. Yeah you can stand there and claim Guidance of the Avatar and +competence to skill items, but those aren't always going to be practical and efficient solutions. You'd undoubtedly be left with a pile of skill points to put somewhere.

[Cyclone Joker]

Only UMD has any balance concerns, and that's simply because UMD is UMD.

That said, I find it hard to believe a level 17 warblade, a guy who's fought things beyond beyond comprehension, and things that destroy worlds, can't identify a damned skeleton or golem. If removed, I don't see much of an impact.

I don't know, I think it goes a little beyond that.
Putting Knowledge Devotion aside, which becomes infinitely more powerful if you can make the checks untrained:

Meh. It's +1 to hit and damage, MAYBE +2 if you get a 20 or so. It's a nice feat, but not busted.

As someone who routinely disguises monsters in games he runs, I can tell you that Knowledge of what you're fighting changes everything.

Anyone can look at a pile of moving white bones and know it's a skeleton. Knowledge skill represents the training or experience to look beyond the blatantly obvious.

Except, by the rules, no, you don't know that those moving little white things are bones to a skeleton unless you have ranks in Know:Religion.

And what benefit is there to be gained by disguising monsters, beyond punishing those with ranks in knowledge?

The difference between knowing you're fighting an animated statue vs knowing it's a golem is huge. Only one of them is immune to magic after all.
There's also a big difference between fighting a fire elemental and a living burning hands spell.

Except Golems look nothing like animated statues.

And people actually use the animated spell template?

And how can you tell that the legions of soldiers in full plate over there are skeletons without removing their helmets? The subtle nuances you observe that are the results of a successful Knowledge check. Now instead of actually trying to fight them you just have the cleric turn them.

Looking at the helmet? People will actually spend 1000 GP/skeleton?

And frankly, yes, if you are a 17th level warblade without any ranks in knowledges that identify monsters, your character is someone who doesn't bother learning from his experiences... which when you think about it isn't that hard to believe.

Despite lacking most knowledges as class skills? Fine, better example, Orc Crusader. Probably doesn't have the spare skills.

So aside from identifying monsters I see the notion of trained only as kind of a non-issue.  Any noteworthy checks with these skills are going to require you to put ranks in them to succeed. Yeah you can stand there and claim Guidance of the Avatar and +competence to skill items, but those aren't always going to be practical and efficient solutions. You'd undoubtedly be left with a pile of skill points to put somewhere.

I'm sorry, but a commoner is going to recognize an ogre. And, he really should be able to tell an ogre and cloud giant apart. Hell, a commoner can't tell the difference between a human and an orc.

So, I believe that knowledge should be an untrained skill. Even if a penalty was attached, but I just find this explanation for half-orcs to be a bit dumb.

[TiaC]

A farmer can't recognize a cow in this game.

[ariasderros]

A farmer can't recognize a cow in this game.

Umm... I know what a bison is in this game, and a brax, but what is this "cow" you speak of? Is it like a dragon at all?

Also, I agree with Cyclone Joker all the way thus far in this thread.

[Daedroth]

A farmer can't recognize a cow in this game.

You can do knwoledge checks untrained if the CD is 10 or inferior (Public domain)

[Tonymitsu]

Meh. It's +1 to hit and damage, MAYBE +2 if you get a 20 or so. It's a nice feat, but not busted.

Exactly.  It would now say, "Take this feat for +1 to attack and damage. Possibly 2 or higher if you roll well and have good intelligence."
I didn't say it became broken. But that's infinitely more powerful than it is right now.

Except Golems look nothing like animated statues.

And people actually use the animated spell template?

Uhh... says who?

Golems, particularly stone and iron ones, can look like whatever the hell the creator wants, including plain old statues.

And yes, I use that template often.  Animated sleet storms are quite fun.

Looking at the helmet?

Nope!
And yes, the petty warlord who has an abundance of cash and a lack actual power is going to do everything he can to make his army look as menacing as possible.


And to everyone: Don't be silly. Stop confusing fluff with mechanical benefits.
Rolling knowledge isn't just identifying a creatures type, it's also knowing what that type is as defined in game terms.

Everyone looks at a skeleton and knows it's the walking dead.  Everyone knows what a cow is (seriously, come on now). No one knows automatically how many hit dice the cow has, how much damage it does with a gore attack, or that it can trample. That's what Knowledge Nature is supposed to tell you.

And frankly, no commoner should be capable of looking at the far field and running into town screaming, "Look out the cloud giants are coming!"
Like any other normal person of little to no formal education who doesn't play table-top role-playing games, they are going to look at any humanoid shaped creature more than 9 feet tall and scream "Giant!"
When you ask them to be more specific you'll get, "Big Giant!"

Knowing the difference between an ogre, a hill giant, and a troll is exactly what the Knowledge skill is supposed to represent. Untrained skills are things that a normal person could reasonably figure out on his own without formal instruction. (And before you even say it, yes, of course someone with nothing better to do could eventually make a journal of all the differences he noted between all the types of things he's fought that were bigger than he is, but that's far beyond the scope of the discussion).

[Unbeliever]

There is, or ought to be, a distinction between things you've actually seen or know and things that you make checks about. 

For example, if Grax has fought 15 red dragons then he knows what he knows about red dragons.  The difference is that Mayax the Informed gets to know all sorts of things -- perhaps more than Grax does -- about red dragons without having to brave fires and claws. 

Example 2, Solo the Stupendous is a 20th level sorcerer.  Solo has 0 ranks in Spellcraft.  Solo still knows how the spells on his spell list work.  He might know that a Fireball has a 20ft. radius and take appropriate precautions b/c he can cast it.  But, he might be flummoxed by variations of Fireball, like Lingering Flames. 

[ariasderros]

A farmer can't recognize a cow in this game.

You can do knwoledge checks untrained if the CD is 10 or inferior (Public domain)

A) The Players handbook lists that the basic DC (up to the DM to raise or lower) for knowing about a creature is it's HD + 10
B) All of the listed sidebars that are for Knowledge checks about creatures use a standard (with some variance) is the CR + 10

So without DM fiat, only creatures with less than one Hit Die, or a CR of less than one, are "public domain" knowledge.

A horse has 3-4 HD and is CR 1-2.
So, without the DM saying that they are common enough to warrant a DC drop, the commoner doesn't even know what that creature is that's pulling his cart.

This is right up there with not seeing the sun.

@ Tony, think about this though, what can that commoner really get on a K. roll w/o ranks anyway? Let's give him an Int mod of 1, just to be nice, and he ends up at... 11. But with making it "untrained" he can know all of the normal flora and fauna like a real native local would, because people can "help each other figure stuff out by sharing what they know about stuff, when they see them together" AKA "Aid Another".

[Tonymitsu]

@ Tony, think about this though, what can that commoner really get on a K. roll w/o ranks anyway? Let's give him an Int mod of 1, just to be nice, and he ends up at... 11. But with making it "untrained" he can know all of the normal flora and fauna like a real native local would, because people can "help each other figure stuff out by sharing what they know about stuff, when they see them together" AKA "Aid Another".

But what you just described there could just as easily be done with a Survival check which can be done untrained.
And knowledge of the normal flora and fauna like a real world native is exactly the kind of +2 synergy bonus that I would expect the of the formal training of Knowledge (nature) to provide.

[radionausea]

Survival can't be used to identify animals/monsters/creatures because that is what knowledge skills are for.  The rules put you in the unfortunate position of being able to know the spoor signs of a creature and be able to track it without actually knowing what it is.

[Waazraath]

As for commoners knowing what a cow is, and that kind of stuff: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4136.msg56582#msg56582
no. 4. And also no 1. Just saying.

[Lord Slasher]

Never mind the cow a commoner does not know that bears live in caves and attack you with their claws

[SorO_Lost]

Three observations.

A. Who said a commoner doesn't have ranks in Knowledge(nature)?
B. "Identify" hardly means name that creature if any of the monster lore entries have any rules relevance at all.
C. It's the Spot skill that tells you the armless eight headed creature with wings and on fire is, well an armless eight headed creature with wings and on fire. "Common Sense" fills in the blanks on if it can fly of it using fire on it would be of any use.

Of course, there is no Knowledge(common sense) in the rules. So I guess my points are invalid, and by my guess certain people used that as an excuse not to put any ranks in it...

[awaken_D_M_golem]

"Trained" means nothing in 4e, except
that you know you got a +5 bonus in
there somewhere.  Lately the Fighter
guys have complained they still don't
do much out of combat.  O'rilly?

Consolidating skills and/or simplifying
them, is a common theme of revisions.
It seems to me most of the details
of 3e skills, are fodder for a below level 1
type game.  Say like early Harry Potter.

[Cyclone Joker]

Meh. It's +1 to hit and damage, MAYBE +2 if you get a 20 or so. It's a nice feat, but not busted.

Exactly.  It would now say, "Take this feat for +1 to attack and damage. Possibly 2 or higher if you roll well and have good intelligence."
I didn't say it became broken. But that's infinitely more powerful than it is right now.

Meh. Not really. Maybe a little.

Except Golems look nothing like animated statues.

And people actually use the animated spell template?

Uhh... says who?.
Golems, particularly stone and iron ones, can look like whatever the hell the creator wants, including plain old statues.

Flavor text, my friend. Golems have a "Humanoid body" made out of whatever. Their gear is also very specific. A stone golem is the ONLY one that has any real leway, and even then, sorry, it's still pretty limited. It is a humanoid chunk of metal or stone, maybe wearing armor, and maybe wielding a sword. That's it. Period.

And yes, I use that template often.  Animated sleet storms are quite fun.

I hate that template so much.

Looking at the helmet?

Nope!

And yes, the petty warlord who has an abundance of cash and a lack actual power is going to do everything he can to make his army look as menacing as possible.

No warlord would bother. If he's strong enough to animate enough minions, he's got better things to animate, and, ignoring that, he could just hire, what, 3 sergeants and 30 wartrolls a day, per skeleton he's equipping. And these trolls can do a lot, rather than flail around uselessly, like a bunch of 1 or 2 HD skeletons.

Floating mercenaries, if he's got enough money to fund that kind of purchase, is much more effective.

And to everyone: Don't be silly. Stop confusing fluff with mechanical benefits.

Why? Crunch is far more important here.

Rolling knowledge isn't just identifying a creatures type, it's also knowing what that type is as defined in game terms.

There's a difference?

Everyone looks at a skeleton and knows it's the walking dead.  Everyone knows what a cow is (seriously, come on now). No one knows automatically how many hit dice the cow has, how much damage it does with a gore attack, or that it can trample. That's what Knowledge Nature is supposed to tell you.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Without ranks in Know:Religion, you DON'T know that an animated skeleton is actually dead, nor do you know that that flying thing up there with gigantic claws and fangs, and is breathing fire can hurt you. The rules just work that  way.

And frankly, no commoner should be capable of looking at the far field and running into town screaming, "Look out the cloud giants are coming!"

So? He should be able to tell the gargantuan, green, upright storm giants from the hunched-over, large, unhuman-ish ogres. Simple fact.

Like any other normal person of little to no formal education who doesn't play table-top role-playing games, they are going to look at any humanoid shaped creature more than 9 feet tall and scream "Giant!"

But there are enough obvious physical distinctions, ogre is much more likely.

When you ask them to be more specific you'll get, "Big Giant!"

Okay, so do they call horses "Small elephants?"

Knowing the difference between an ogre, a hill giant, and a troll is exactly what the Knowledge skill is supposed to represent. Untrained skills are things that a normal person could reasonably figure out on his own without formal instruction. (And before you even say it, yes, of course someone with nothing better to do could eventually make a journal of all the differences he noted between all the types of things he's fought that were bigger than he is, but that's far beyond the scope of the discussion).

So, you're saying that Aaarrghhhhh, Giant Slayer, the great Orc who's killed hundreds of giants, can't tell the difference between ogres, smaller, weaker, and not gigantic-hurty-painy-rock throwing one, versus fire giants, the big, red, burny, rock throwing ones, or the big, GREEN, rock-throwing ones? Yeah, no.

Three observations.

A. Who said a commoner doesn't have ranks in Knowledge(nature)?

Because they only have 2 skill points a level, and being a simple farmer requires, what, Profession:Farmer and Handle Animal, and that's not counting any other skills it really should have?

B. "Identify" hardly means name that creature if any of the monster lore entries have any rules relevance at all.

Sorry, bro. Rules beg to differ.

C. It's the Spot skill that tells you the armless eight headed creature with wings and on fire is, well an armless eight headed creature with wings and on fire. "Common Sense" fills in the blanks on if it can fly of it using fire on it would be of any use.

Again, not true.

Of course, there is no Knowledge(common sense) in the rules. So I guess my points are invalid, and by my guess certain people used that as an excuse not to put any ranks in it...

Yep.

This illustrates the issue of trained-only skills for things like Knowledge.

[Solo]

My personal take on commoners using untrained knowledge skills is that they get information... just not particularly useful or accurate information.

If Bob the Commoner tries to identify a troll, he's going to know it's a troll, and that it can be defeated by fire, mugwort, bright lights, loud noises, or riddling contests.

And if he tries to identify an annis hag... he might also conclude that it is a troll.

[Tonymitsu]

Flavor text, my friend. Golems have a "Humanoid body" made out of whatever. Their gear is also very specific. A stone golem is the ONLY one that has any real leway, and even then, sorry, it's still pretty limited. It is a humanoid chunk of metal or stone, maybe wearing armor, and maybe wielding a sword. That's it. Period.

A flesh golem is a ghoulish collection of stolen humanoid body parts, stitched together into a single composite form. No natural animal willingly tracks a flesh golem. The golem wears whatever clothing its creator desires, usually just a ragged pair of trousers.

This golem has a humanoid body made from iron. An iron golem can be fashioned in any manner, just like a stone golem (see below), although it almost always displays armor of some sort.

This golem has a humanoid body made from stone. A stone golem is 9 feet tall and weighs around 2,000 pounds. Its body is frequently stylized to suit its creator. For example, it might look like it is wearing armor, with a particular symbol carved on the breastplate, or have designs worked into the stone of its limbs.

I'm sorry. Tell me again what all golems look like?  And no that's not fluff.
Fluff is in italics.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Without ranks in Know:Religion, you DON'T know that an animated skeleton is actually dead, nor do you know that that flying thing up there with gigantic claws and fangs, and is breathing fire can hurt you. The rules just work that  way.

Again, you are confusing "dead" with "Undead".  One is an adjective that describes a state of being. The other is a supertype which describes certain Special Qualities possessed by more than a few monsters in D&D. The latter is what Knowledge: Religion covers. The former is what any NPC with an Intelligence higher than 4 is capable of comprehending.

So, you're saying that Aaarrghhhhh, Giant Slayer, the great Orc who's killed hundreds of giants, can't tell the difference between ogres, smaller, weaker, and not gigantic-hurty-painy-rock throwing one, versus fire giants, the big, red, burny, rock throwing ones, or the big, GREEN, rock-throwing ones? Yeah, no.

Again... anyone with an Intelligence higher than 4 can look at three giants and tell you they look different, and possibly describe what they look like. But if he didn't put ranks in Knowledges as he was leveling up? No, without meta-gaming he couldn't tell you what those differences are beyond, "The red one that burns when he hits, the green one that throws rocks, and the grey one with a club."

EDIT: Oh yeah, and another thing:

Because they only have 2 skill points a level, and being a simple farmer requires, what, Profession:Farmer and Handle Animal, and that's not counting any other skills it really should have?

So what you meant to say is a first level human commoner with the elite array, assuming an average intelligence of 10, would have 2*4 + 4 skill points?
Which is more than enough for Profession Farmer 4, Handle Animal 2, Craft 2, Knowledge local 1 and Knowledge Nature 1.