The Importance of Trained-Only Skills

[SorO_Lost]

B. "Identify" hardly means name that creature if any of the monster lore entries have any rules relevance at all.

Sorry, bro. Rules beg to differ.

Orly?

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Apparently, Knowledge checks can reveal their special powers or vulnerabilities.

If you need an example, look at the 2~6 page waste of a monster entry design the newer books of 3.5 used. Where even in the lowest DC, more than a 'name' is revealed suggesting by use that 'and' isn't some kind of XOR or NAND at all. Interesting eh?

Almost as interesting as assuming a commoner invest four ranks in two skills rather than maybe one or two per skill. Cus it's not like every horse movie ever has a trainer, coach, rider (the daughter), several stable hands, and the female owner stuggling to hold the farm together rather than one super genius doing everything. I wonder if all those people working cattle have the same exact eight (or more, eer I mean none since everyone is lv1 despite DMG's rules saying otherwise) point investment to be dopplegangers of each other.

Likewise, if you really wanted to get realistic, saying knowing what a Cow is demands a rank in Knowledge. That toy, you know the one, bright orange, spun an arrow and said "the cow goes moooo!". It's a magical device that assigns Knowledge Ranks for you, long before you could pick and choose what you think you should have invested your points in, as if each child is born and taught enough for 1 or more ranks of an appropriate Knowledge skill for their area. Food for thought.

tl;dr: There is no rule basis for a commoner not knowing that a Cow can be eaten for food, or milked. Which isn't a special ability since I can't find that entry anywhere...

[zook1shoe]

I dont see why a commoner with ranks in prof (farmer) wouldn't know what a cow or a horse? It's part of his profession.

Just like a armorsmith doesn't make full plate out of shit... Just "because he doesn't have any ranks in the right knowledge"

No warlord would bother. If he's strong enough to animate enough minions, he's got better things to animate, and, ignoring that, he could just hire, what, 3 sergeants and 30 wartrolls a day, per skeleton he's equipping. And these trolls can do a lot, rather than flail around uselessly, like a bunch of 1 or 2 HD skeletons.

Floating mercenaries, if he's got enough money to fund that kind of purchase, is much more effective.

Actually its quite smart. You save a lot of money on rations for undead troops, since they don't require food like living troops do. You also need fewer, since you only need one shift, since they don't need to sleep like living troops would.

So? He should be able to tell the gargantuan, green, upright storm giants from the hunched-over, large, unhuman-ish ogres. Simple fact.

They would know what they are in a more general manner... Ogre, giant, unicorn, worg, hydra, wolf, donkey, dragon, etc.

This is because these types of creatures everyone knows at least the general description of and can deduce what they think is one. They might mistake a winter wolf for a worg, since they don't know theres a difference. But they know that a giant is bigger than a troll.

The knowledge skills (and fluff) allow characters the ability identify individual species... Cloud giant, cave troll, hound archon, iron golem, whisper gnome, etc.

[Cyclone Joker]

Flavor text, my friend. Golems have a "Humanoid body" made out of whatever. Their gear is also very specific. A stone golem is the ONLY one that has any real leway, and even then, sorry, it's still pretty limited. It is a humanoid chunk of metal or stone, maybe wearing armor, and maybe wielding a sword. That's it. Period.

A flesh golem is a ghoulish collection of stolen humanoid body parts, stitched together into a single composite form. No natural animal willingly tracks a flesh golem. The golem wears whatever clothing its creator desires, usually just a ragged pair of trousers.

This golem has a humanoid body made from iron. An iron golem can be fashioned in any manner, just like a stone golem (see below), although it almost always displays armor of some sort.

This golem has a humanoid body made from stone. A stone golem is 9 feet tall and weighs around 2,000 pounds. Its body is frequently stylized to suit its creator. For example, it might look like it is wearing armor, with a particular symbol carved on the breastplate, or have designs worked into the stone of its limbs.

I'm sorry. Tell me again what all golems look like?  And no that's not fluff.
Fluff is in italics.

Wrong. Quite clear. It's a humanoid lump of meat or mineral that may or may not be wearing armor. That is quite different from an animated statue, which is, you know, a statue that's been animated.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Without ranks in Know:Religion, you DON'T know that an animated skeleton is actually dead, nor do you know that that flying thing up there with gigantic claws and fangs, and is breathing fire can hurt you. The rules just work that  way.

Again, you are confusing "dead" with "Undead".  One is an adjective that describes a state of being. The other is a supertype which describes certain Special Qualities possessed by more than a few monsters in D&D. The latter is what Knowledge: Religion covers. The former is what any NPC with an Intelligence higher than 4 is capable of comprehending.

Again, no. You cannot identify the skeleton. Period. End of the line. If you don't have ranks, it cannot be identified, so, no, you don't know if it's alive or dead, because you simply don't know what it is.

So, you're saying that Aaarrghhhhh, Giant Slayer, the great Orc who's killed hundreds of giants, can't tell the difference between ogres, smaller, weaker, and not gigantic-hurty-painy-rock throwing one, versus fire giants, the big, red, burny, rock throwing ones, or the big, GREEN, rock-throwing ones? Yeah, no.

Again... anyone with an Intelligence higher than 4 can look at three giants and tell you they look different, and possibly describe what they look like. But if he didn't put ranks in Knowledges as he was leveling up? No, without meta-gaming he couldn't tell you what those differences are beyond, "The red one that burns when he hits, the green one that throws rocks, and the grey one with a club."

Rules don't work like that. You simply can't identify it. So, no. Without ranks, you cannot tell the difference between the thirty foot tall one and the ten-foot tall one, and the twenty foot tall flaming one.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and another thing:

Because they only have 2 skill points a level, and being a simple farmer requires, what, Profession:Farmer and Handle Animal, and that's not counting any other skills it really should have?

So what you meant to say is a first level human commoner with the elite array, assuming an average intelligence of 10, would have 2*4 + 4 skill points?
Which is more than enough for Profession Farmer 4, Handle Animal 2, Craft 2, Knowledge local 1 and Knowledge Nature 1.

Average dude doesn't get the elite array. The average commoner uses the average statline. All 10s. He gets 8 skill points, to split up between dealing with his animals, making his money, fixing crap, and eating. Average people don't cross-class. The issue is, the commoner has to be able to take ranks to tell the CHICKENS from the ELEPHANTS.

B. "Identify" hardly means name that creature if any of the monster lore entries have any rules relevance at all.

Sorry, bro. Rules beg to differ.

Orly?

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Apparently, Knowledge checks can reveal their special powers or vulnerabilities.

If you need an example, look at the 2~6 page waste of a monster entry design the newer books of 3.5 used. Where even in the lowest DC, more than a 'name' is revealed suggesting by use that 'and' isn't some kind of XOR or NAND at all. Interesting eh?

Almost as interesting as assuming a commoner invest four ranks in two skills rather than maybe one or two per skill. Cus it's not like every horse movie ever has a trainer, coach, rider (the daughter), several stable hands, and the female owner stuggling to hold the farm together rather than one super genius doing everything. I wonder if all those people working cattle have the same exact eight (or more, eer I mean none since everyone is lv1 despite DMG's rules saying otherwise) point investment to be dopplegangers of each other.

Likewise, if you really wanted to get realistic, saying knowing what a Cow is demands a rank in Knowledge. That toy, you know the one, bright orange, spun an arrow and said "the cow goes moooo!". It's a magical device that assigns Knowledge Ranks for you, long before you could pick and choose what you think you should have invested your points in, as if each child is born and taught enough for 1 or more ranks of an appropriate Knowledge skill for their area. Food for thought.

tl;dr: There is no rule basis for a commoner not knowing that a Cow can be eaten for food, or milked. Which isn't a special ability since I can't find that entry anywhere...

Look, sweetie, do you need me to spell this out for you? Just because there's an "And" there doesn't mean you get to ignore what's in front of it. Those waste pages don't matter outside of those specific creature. You need to make a knowledge check to identify something. Period. End of story. You need the knowledge check to identify a human, orc, cyrohydra, prismatic roper, and, yes, chicken.

Now, I'll bite, for just a second. Okay, the farmer takes a rank in Know:Nature. He can now make a DC11-ish check to identify his chickens. Now, he has 6 points to spend on farming, and animal handling, and crafting, and so on.

Now, sweetums, I'm sure this is all too complicated, so let me put it in a simpler way, so you can understand; Identify does not simply mean name.

I dont see why a commoner with ranks in prof (farmer) wouldn't know what a cow or a horse? It's part of his profession.

Because he is not able to make the check to identify them. Simple as that

Just like a armorsmith doesn't make full plate out of shit... Just "because he doesn't have any ranks in the right knowledge"

Given that I cannot locate "Mineral" as one of the knowledge topics, I see no reason why he would be unable to determine the correct material to make armor

No warlord would bother. If he's strong enough to animate enough minions, he's got better things to animate, and, ignoring that, he could just hire, what, 3 sergeants and 30 wartrolls a day, per skeleton he's equipping. And these trolls can do a lot, rather than flail around uselessly, like a bunch of 1 or 2 HD skeletons.

Floating mercenaries, if he's got enough money to fund that kind of purchase, is much more effective

Actually its quite smart. You save a lot of money on rations for undead troops, since they don't require food like living troops do. You also need fewer, since you only need one shift, since they don't need to sleep like living troops would.

And fail to do any damage. Undead troops are quite nice for certain things, I am not disputing that. Putting your human skeletons in full plate, however, is quite another matter.

So? He should be able to tell the gargantuan, green, upright storm giants from the hunched-over, large, unhuman-ish ogres. Simple fact.

They would know what they are in a more general manner... Ogre, giant, unicorn, worg, hydra, wolf, donkey, dragon, etc.

This is because these types of creatures everyone knows at least the general description of and can deduce what they think is one. They might mistake a winter wolf for a worg, since they don't know theres a difference. But they know that a giant is bigger than a troll.

The knowledge skills (and fluff) allow characters the ability identify individual species... Cloud giant, cave troll, hound archon, iron golem, whisper gnome, etc.

While this is what should be(Ish), it's not what the rules say. You cannot identify anything covered in the knowledge entry without a skill check, which you are not allowed to make untrained. So, while the intent may have been preventing untrained idiots from telling the difference between a troll and scag, they instead made it to tell the difference between a human and an orc, or an elephant and a chicken.

[Solo]

In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD.

Gentlemen of the thread, I come to you with a question.What does "in general" mean?

[Sinfire Titan]

Again, no. You cannot identify the skeleton. Period. End of the line. If you don't have ranks, it cannot be identified, so, no, you don't know if it's alive or dead, because you simply don't know what it is.

Rules don't work like that. You simply can't identify it. So, no. Without ranks, you cannot tell the difference between the thirty foot tall one and the ten-foot tall one, and the twenty foot tall flaming one.

Then please explain this:

Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

While the average commoner might not be able to identify a Skeleton (a failure of the skills system in general), anyone with 0 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and an Int modifier of +1 or higher will know that a human skeleton needs to be subjected to necromancy in order to move on it's own. This is enough to identify the Undead type.

With a Bone Golem, common knowledge wouldn't be enough to ID it, so most people won't know it's a Construct. A failed Knowledge check (Arcana, in this case) would fool the person making the check into believing it's an Undead.

The Knowledge skills are poorly defined, but they at least included a rule for common sense too:

Check
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD.

Gentlemen of the thread, I come to you with a question.What does "in general" mean?

Unfortunately, that line is subjective based on what the DM thinks would be "general". Given how many societies in D&D have a thing against Necromancy and Dragon, I'd think that being able to at least identify the Dragon type or Undead type would be common knowledge and not subject to the 10+HD DC (although it won't tell you that a Vampire trying to hide his vampirism is an Undead). Being able to tell Human from Elf is basic common sense, and should not fall under the Knowledge skills at all.

That's just me though, and others may be more draconian about it.

[Cyclone Joker]

Again, no. You cannot identify the skeleton. Period. End of the line. If you don't have ranks, it cannot be identified, so, no, you don't know if it's alive or dead, because you simply don't know what it is.

Rules don't work like that. You simply can't identify it. So, no. Without ranks, you cannot tell the difference between the thirty foot tall one and the ten-foot tall one, and the twenty foot tall flaming one.

Then please explain this:

Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

Because identifying a skeleton, even a 1HD one, is above DC 10. As you quoted, the DC is 10+HD, therefore anything with HD, period, is above DC 10.

While the average commoner might not be able to identify a Skeleton (a failure of the skills system in general), anyone with 0 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and an Int modifier of +1 or higher will know that a human skeleton needs to be subjected to necromancy in order to move on it's own. This is enough to identify the Undead type.

Incorrect. To know if something is undead, you first must identify it. If you cannot identify it, you cannot know if it is undead. Knowing that a human skeleton is undead is a DC 11 check, which the commoner is unable to take.

With a Bone Golem, common knowledge wouldn't be enough to ID it, so most people won't know it's a Construct. A failed Knowledge check (Arcana, in this case) would fool the person making the check into believing it's an Undead.

Totally unsupported by any rules I can see. There is just a failure to identify. I see nothing in the knowledge rules giving incorrect information.

The Knowledge skills are poorly defined, but they at least included a rule for common sense too:

Check
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

Which is the general rule, which is superseded by this:

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

In other words, you are allowed to make a simple check, such as identifying a symbol of the Burning Hate, but you are not allowed to make a simple check to identify a human skeleton, because it is DC 11, regardless of how mundane and easy it may seem.

In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD.

Gentlemen of the thread, I come to you with a question.What does "in general" mean?

Unfortunately, that line is subjective based on what the DM thinks would be "general". Given how many societies in D&D have a thing against Necromancy and Dragon, I'd think that being able to at least identify the Dragon type or Undead type would be common knowledge and not subject to the 10+HD DC (although it won't tell you that a Vampire trying to hide his vampirism is an Undead). Being able to tell Human from Elf is basic common sense, and should not fall under the Knowledge skills at all.

That's just me though, and others may be more draconian about it.

While this is a much more sensible method, it is incorrect, as the general(easy checks are DC10) is overridden by the specific(Identifying is DC 10+HD). By the rules, a commoner is not allowed to know that a rotting corpse animated by black magic is, well, a rotting corpse animated by black magic.

[zook1shoe]

CC, so are telling us that no commoner can raise chicken or milk cows despite having ranks inthat profession? How does the world function with no farmers of any sorts?

Are people and other creatures so dumb they can't procreate because they don't have ranks in the knowledge about their own race? because that's what you're implying... Because without the appropriate knowledge ranks a whale is going to see a seal a try to have sex with it, thinking its another whale. That's exactly what you are trying to get at.


No these sorts of things are BASIC knowledge and common sense. A farmer knows what to farm, an armorsmith knows what metal to use, a whale knows what other whales of its species look like and which ones are female and male.

Commoners know the difference between a skeleton (walking bones) and a unicorn, because that's general knowledge.

Like I said before, the knowledge skill would be used to know that the unicorn was in fact half-fey, or the skeleton was in fact a bone golem instead.

[phaedrusxy]

By the rules, a commoner is not allowed to know that a rotting corpse animated by black magic is, well, a rotting corpse animated by black magic.

Nor that a cow is a cow, he is a human, etc...

[Jackinthegreen]

By the rules this, by the rules that... FUCK THE RULES!  A commoner is going to know a few things about a cow or a chicken, etc even without ranks in a profession or knowledge (nature).  The fact that the rules say otherwise says that the rules simply aren't built for common sense in cases like that.

One other thing to consider with trained versus untrained skills: Jack of all Trades.  Does the feat shift things around?  Not a whole lot since the character won't have full ranks in everything but can still attempt the stuff at DC 20 or so, maybe even higher with stats and other bonuses.

[SorO_Lost]

By the rules this, by the rules that... FUCK THE RULES!

While that would work, you don't have to.

Identify as noted in the Skill entry and use doesn't tell you a cow is a cow. It tells you that male cow is a four legged bovine dubbed bos primigenius taurus, also called a bull, with no Damage Deduction, Spell Resistance, or other defensive qualities. It's weakness is sharp objects, mud, water, and long falls. And they cannot see their own feet.

The common knowledge check, DC 10, tells you that you can milk it by squeezing it's nipples. Unless maybe you're not a mammal, do you think a Kobold would look at dangle parts and it wants to know what it would be like to suck on them?

Experience and character knowledge operates independently of checks. It's to say you don't have to ID the bony dragon as a Skeletal Dragon, the Cleric does. When he tells you what it is, then you know as much as he has told you. This no-check tells you it's a cow, they eat grass and can be milked because presumably you didn't grow up in a dark life-less cave and someone told you what those things were out on the field.

[Cyclone Joker]

CC, so are telling us that no commoner can raise chicken or milk cows despite having ranks inthat profession? How does the world function with no farmers of any sorts?

Well, they could go with plants, given the lack of HD on most of them, he'd be entitled to a check to identify plants. Meat, on the other hand, yeah.

Are people and other creatures so dumb they can't procreate because they don't have ranks in the knowledge about their own race? because that's what you're implying... Because without the appropriate knowledge ranks a whale is going to see a seal a try to have sex with it, thinking its another whale. That's exactly what you are trying to get at.

Uh, yeah. I figure that's where all the half-elves and half-orcs come from.

No these sorts of things are BASIC knowledge and common sense. A farmer knows what to farm, an armorsmith knows what metal to use, a whale knows what other whales of its species look like and which ones are female and male.

Rules beg to differ. Sorry, but we're discussing RULES here, not what the game should be like.

Commoners know the difference between a skeleton (walking bones) and a unicorn, because that's general knowledge.

Does he have ranks in know:Religion or Arcana? If not, then nope.

Like I said before, the knowledge skill would be used to know that the unicorn was in fact half-fey, or the skeleton was in fact a bone golem instead.

Nope. No knowledge check means it's not identified. Period. Mean that the character has no damn clue anything about it.

By the rules this, by the rules that... FUCK THE RULES!  A commoner is going to know a few things about a cow or a chicken, etc even without ranks in a profession or knowledge (nature).  The fact that the rules say otherwise says that the rules simply aren't built for common sense in cases like that.

Oh, of course! Silly me. I thought the rules were important in a discussion of said rules. Now, excuse me, since the rules don't matter, I guess I'll go burn all my books.

One other thing to consider with trained versus untrained skills: Jack of all Trades.  Does the feat shift things around?  Not a whole lot since the character won't have full ranks in everything but can still attempt the stuff at DC 20 or so, maybe even higher with stats and other bonuses.

Yes, Jack of All Trade should solve the problem. This, of course, raises the issue of having to take a feat to tell chickens and elephants apart, but whatever.

By the rules this, by the rules that... FUCK THE RULES!

While that would work, you don't have to.

Identify as noted in the Skill entry and use doesn't tell you a cow is a cow. It tells you that male cow is a four legged bovine dubbed bos primigenius taurus, also called a bull, with no Damage Deduction, Spell Resistance, or other defensive qualities. It's weakness is sharp objects, mud, water, and long falls. And they cannot see their own feet.

SorO, honey, I know English and rules aren't exactly your strong point, so let me help you out here:

i·den·ti·fy/īˈdentəˌfī/
Verb:   
Establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is.
Recognize or distinguish (esp. something considered worthy of attention).

The common knowledge check, DC 10, tells you that you can milk it by squeezing it's nipples. Unless maybe you're not a mammal, do you think a Kobold would look at dangle parts and it wants to know what it would be like to suck on them?

To do that, you have to know it's a cow, or even a mammal. Since the check cannot be made, being, what, DC 13 or so, you have no idea what it is, much less any way to distinguish it from highly toxic animals. Would you milk a cow if you couldn't be sure that you weren't actually milking a viper, or poison dart frog? I'd stick with the tofu.

Experience and character knowledge operates independently of checks. It's to say you don't have to ID the bony dragon as a Skeletal Dragon, the Cleric does. When he tells you what it is, then you know as much as he has told you. This no-check tells you it's a cow, they eat grass and can be milked because presumably you didn't grow up in a dark life-less cave and someone told you what those things were out on the field.

Given that you have no information to identify or distinguish it, or to establish or indicate what it is, given that you are incapable of identifying it, good luck. That experience is useless, since you still have no idea what that mass of bones it. Period. End of story, you just have no idea. Hell, a stricter reading would mean that you can't even tell that it's a mass of bones.

[zook1shoe]

Rules Compendium pg29 has a Table for skill checks which doesn't have knowledge specifically, but might help.

Example Difficulty Classes
Difficulty (DC)                    Task (Skill Used)
Very easy (0)                    Climb a knotted rope while braced on a
                                         wall (Climb)
Easy (5)                            Jump 5 feet (Jump)
Average (10)                     Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15)                        Rig a wagon wheel to fall off
                                        (Disable Device)
Challenging (20)                Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25)                Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30)                       Tumble through an enemy’s space on ice
                                        (Tumble)
Nearly impossible (40)       Track a squad of orcs across hard ground
                                         after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)


i would see that knowledge could possibly be put on this same table, as follows...

Example Difficulty Classes
Difficulty (DC)                    Task (Skill Used)
Very easy (0)                    Know that is a cow standing in front of you
Easy (5)                            Know that cows can be used for milk
Average (10)                     Know whether or not that is a cow or bull
Tough (15)                        Know what breed of cow you're looking at
Challenging (20)                Know how to breed cows and bulls consistently
Formidable (25)                Know how to breed that particular breed of cow
Heroic (30)                       Know where that breed of cow originally came from
Nearly impossible (40)       Know that the cow is actually a demon lord that's
                                         going to kill you in six days

Well, they could go with plants, given the lack of HD on most of them, he'd be entitled to a check to identify plants. Meat, on the other hand, yeah.

really, where does it say that?      like you said to me... "we're dealing with rules"

Uh, yeah. I figure that's where all the half-elves and half-orcs come from.

most of us assume is from love or other sorts of relationships, not just mistakes, like you think.

Rules beg to differ. Sorry, but we're discussing RULES here, not what the game should be like.

actually, we're discussing the game, not just the rules. yes, the rules are part of the game, but not everything.

do any of your characters have a background? that's beyond most rules that you seem to try to refuse to look beyond. ha!!! there you "broke" the rules :-p

Does he have ranks in know:Religion or Arcana? If not, then nope.

how so? he has eyes and sight (typically), therefore he can visually tell the difference between a skeleton and magical horse-creature. he doesn't know what they can do, but he can make basic assumptions, like the skeleton is made of bones because he can see them. the unicorn has a horn, because he can see it. he then can assume that the horse uses its four legs to move, since he sees it do so. and the skeleton with two bony legs does moves on its legs because it sees the skeleton do so.

do you disagree that the human with sight cannot tell the visual difference between two creatures?

Nope. No knowledge check means it's not identified. Period. Mean that the character has no damn clue anything about it.

did you read what i said?

[RedWarlock]

There's a difference between a knowledge check, used to identify monsters, and just being told information. Presumably, without any need for investing skill ranks, a farmer at some point was pointed at a cow and told 'This is a cow. You milk those udders and can slaughter it for beef.' Knowledge checks also don't restrict you from going to just do research on a topic by hand. 'Look it up', in-character, is also an entirely viable tactic for gaining information, no ranks or checks needed.

[Cyclone Joker]

Rules Compendium pg29 has a Table for skill checks which doesn't have knowledge specifically, but might help.

Example Difficulty Classes
Difficulty (DC)                    Task (Skill Used)
Very easy (0)                    Climb a knotted rope while braced on a
                                         wall (Climb)
Easy (5)                            Jump 5 feet (Jump)
Average (10)                     Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15)                        Rig a wagon wheel to fall off
                                        (Disable Device)
Challenging (20)                Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25)                Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30)                       Tumble through an enemy’s space on ice
                                        (Tumble)
Nearly impossible (40)       Track a squad of orcs across hard ground
                                         after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)


i would see that knowledge could possibly be put on this same table, as follows...

Example Difficulty Classes
Difficulty (DC)                    Task (Skill Used)
Very easy (0)                    Know that is a cow standing in front of you
Easy (5)                            Know that cows can be used for milk
Average (10)                     Know whether or not that is a cow or bull
Tough (15)                        Know what breed of cow you're looking at
Challenging (20)                Know how to breed cows and bulls consistently
Formidable (25)                Know how to breed that particular breed of cow
Heroic (30)                       Know where that breed of cow originally came from
Nearly impossible (40)       Know that the cow is actually a demon lord that's
                                         going to kill you in six days

So, you make something up and use it to support you? 

Well, they could go with plants, given the lack of HD on most of them, he'd be entitled to a check to identify plants. Meat, on the other hand, yeah.

really, where does it say that? like you said to me... "we're dealing with rules"

Carrots have no HD. The DC to identify something is 10+HD. So, identifying a carrot is 10+0, or 10.

Uh, yeah. I figure that's where all the half-elves and half-orcs come from.

most of us assume is from love or other sorts of relationships, not just mistakes, like you think.

And that Stargate-esque whooshing sound was the joke sailing above your head.

Rules beg to differ. Sorry, but we're discussing RULES here, not what the game should be like.

actually, we're discussing the game, not just the rules. yes, the rules are part of the game, but not everything.

No. Rules are the entirety of the game "Dungeons and Dragons." Some parts of the game have RP elements, but "Dungeons and Dragons" is a game. A game is nothing but rules.

Just because two things frequently go together does not mean they are one and the same. Just as poker is cards, not purely for cash, and can function independently from money, D&D is not dependent on RP.

do any of your characters have a background? that's beyond most rules that you seem to try to refuse to look beyond. ha!!! there you "broke" the rules :-p

Always. Recently, I had a knight errant and a changeling who was a merchant and information broker, who had recently become a fugitive.

Does he have ranks in know:Religion or Arcana? If not, then nope.

how so? he has eyes and sight (typically), therefore he can visually tell the difference between a skeleton and magical horse-creature. he doesn't know what they can do, but he can make basic assumptions, like the skeleton is made of bones because he can see them. the unicorn has a horn, because he can see it. he then can assume that the horse uses its four legs to move, since he sees it do so. and the skeleton with two bony legs does moves on its legs because it sees the skeleton do so.

Well, he since was unable to make his Know:Arcana or religion check, then he cannot identify either. Identify includes distinguishing, so no, he really can't distinguish between the two.

do you disagree that the human with sight cannot tell the visual difference between two creatures?

Whether his eyes can tell the difference or not, he is still incapable of distinguishing them. Sorry, dude. Rules. You know, the original point of the discussion

Like I said before, the knowledge skill would be used to know that the unicorn was in fact half-fey, or the skeleton was in fact a bone golem instead.

Nope. No knowledge check means it's not identified. Period. Mean that the character has no damn clue anything about it.

did you read what i said?[/quote]Yeah. You obviously didn't read what I wrote.

RedWarlock: Tough. You need to make the check to identify a cow. Period. Regardless of what someone points out, until the check is made, a frog, a chicken, a cow, and an elephant are indistinguishable from each other. That's what identify means.

[Vasja]

Untrained: An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

Pretty sure this covers something like knowing what cows are. Or the difference between an ancient undead skeleton and your buddy's ex-wife.

[Unbeliever]

...
Experience and character knowledge operates independently of checks. It's to say you don't have to ID the bony dragon as a Skeletal Dragon, the Cleric does. When he tells you what it is, then you know as much as he has told you. This no-check tells you it's a cow, they eat grass and can be milked because presumably you didn't grow up in a dark life-less cave and someone told you what those things were out on the field.

I am compelled to point out that I said pretty much just this a few posts ago.

Note that this doesn't have anything to do with the OP.  I'm sure trained skills can still play a role without being paired with what are arguably (I think wrongly, but I am so beyond caring about this type of argument) asinine knowledge rules. 

If the only reason against trained skills is this silly "farmers can't know what cows are" argument, then maybe that tells you they are fine and it's, at most, the knowledge skills that need to be revisited. 

[zook1shoe]

Untrained: An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

Pretty sure this covers something like knowing what cows are. Or the difference between an ancient undead skeleton and your buddy's ex-wife.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!

did no one point this out already?

do we all understand the term "common knowledge"? :-p

[Cyclone Joker]

Untrained: An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

Pretty sure this covers something like knowing what cows are. Or the difference between an ancient undead skeleton and your buddy's ex-wife.

This is the general rule. The general rule is trumped by the specific rule, the one about identifying. General knowledge doesn't matter, because there are those specific rules on identifying creatures.

Why is this so complicated?

[Jackinthegreen]

Oh, of course! Silly me. I thought the rules were important in a discussion of said rules. Now, excuse me, since the rules don't matter, I guess I'll go burn all my books.

Let's go over the rules:

Untrained: An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

It is common knowledge that a cow is a cow, to anyone without training.  The fact that it needs an average roll is enough to model those few who have never seen or heard of cows.  To say otherwise is bullshit.  The fact that the rules do say "The DC is 10 + the creature's HD" shows they weren't very consistent or thoughtful with certain things.

I think I can safely say most people here would agree that hanging on to a broken rule such as that just because it's "RAW" is patently idiotic.  The rules do not make sense here and would be trivial to fix or houserule.

We could also look at a particularly useful few paragraphs from http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860738/The_Ten_Commandments_of_Practical_Optimization

3. RAW is a myth.
This is one of the dirty little secrets of the board. The Most Holy RAW is invoked continuously by those who want to give their arguments the veneer of officiality. The problem is, RAW is generally applied not as "The Rules as Written," but rather as "The Rules As I Interpret Them And You Can't Prove I'm Wrong, Nyeah." The RAITAYCPIWN. Not quite as catchy an acronym, granted, but that's what it boils down to.

This game cannot be played without interpretation and the judicious application of common sense. Try to play the game strictly and exclusively by the rules as written, and you have an unplayable game.

Using "RAW" as a defense is similarly meaningless--particularly when your defense rests on interpretation. If you're going to claim that your build is RAW, you'd better be able to make sure that the rules specifically uphold your claim...not simply that they're sort of vague and COULD be interpreted in such a way as to not FORBID your claim.

This becomes particularly important when your claim is especially controversial.

Yes, builds should adhere to the rules as written. Yes, any exceptions to that should be noted. But the RAW as some sort of entity unto itself, capable of rendering a build immune to criticism, is not a useful construction, and causes more problems than it solves.

Emphasis mine.

[Solo]

Untrained: An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

Pretty sure this covers something like knowing what cows are. Or the difference between an ancient undead skeleton and your buddy's ex-wife.

One's a wailing, thrice damned shell of its former self who seeks to drain all the life force from the living, and the other is the fell-animated remains of a once-living creature?