Are Regenerating Trolls "immune" to Disintegrate?

[ksbsnowowl]

Was searching for something else and came across an interesting supposition.

A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

Regeneration (Ex): Fire and acid deal normal damage to a troll. If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

So, if it's not fire or acid damage, it doesn't lower or reduce the troll's HP's; it merely increases its nonlethal damage.  As such it is impossible for Disintegrate to turn a troll to dust, as the ray never 'reduces its hit points to 0 or fewer,' correct?

It would of course still inflict all those d6's of damage, as nonlethal damage.

[Arturick]

The disintegration beam is green.

As we all know from video games, acid damage is green.

Disintegrate is acid. 

[Unbeliever]

I'd say Disintegrate could kill a Troll, just like a death spell or effect could.  Provided, that is, it does the last amount of damage to them to reduce them to 0 hp. 

I have no rules basis for that conclusion, it just makes sense to me. 

[veekie]

Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

This seems to indicate that regardless of the creature, whether it has Diehard or not, as long as it can reduce the creature below 0, it dies.

However:

Dealing Nonlethal Damage

Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.

The regenerator's hp never reaches zero, so he would reform from the powder just fine.

[NunoM]

The OP is correct, IMO.

The "Regeneration" ability of a creature treats all damage from any kind of source as nonlethal, unless it comes from specified sources. In the troll's case, that means fire and acid.

The "Disintegrate" spell doesn't specify the kind of energy it uses, so... it isn't acid or fire.

The troll would take all damage as nonlethal, wouldn't be turned to dust (because he wouldn't be reduced to 0 HPs - nonlethal damage is recorded separately) and regenerate as normal.

[ksbsnowowl]

Was looking something else up, and actually read the regeneration entry in the back of the MM.  The SRD has some important missing text (found below, in red).

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage (such as poisons and disintegration) ignore regeneration.

[phaedrusxy]

Was looking something else up, and actually read the regeneration entry in the back of the MM.  The SRD has some important missing text (found below, in red).

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage (such as poisons and disintegration) ignore regeneration.

How strange...

[ksbsnowowl]

It has to do with how they removed all examples from the text of the SRD.  The problem is, sometimes those examples are the only indication of how a rule is supposed to work.

[Halinn]

IIRC, that whole "not dealing damage" thing of disintegration is a 3.0 holdout, which they forgot to remove.

[ksbsnowowl]

IIRC, that whole "not dealing damage" thing of disintegration is a 3.0 holdout, which they forgot to remove.

I agree, that is likely the case, and an argument could be made that the tiny mention of it in the regeneration ability should be ignored, as it contradicts the very rules of disintegrate.  However, it is there, nonetheless.

[Nanshork]

IIRC, that whole "not dealing damage" thing of disintegration is a 3.0 holdout, which they forgot to remove.

I agree, that is likely the case, and an argument could be made that the tiny mention of it in the regeneration ability should be ignored, as it contradicts the very rules of disintegrate.  However, it is there, nonetheless.

Was it removed in errata (and thus removed from the SRD)?

[betrayor]

What if someone has reduced for example a troll using fire or acid  to 0 hit points or less(but more than -10) and then uses disintegrate?

[ksbsnowowl]

Was it removed in errata (and thus removed from the SRD)?

But the mention of poison would not have been removed, so I doubt it.

Edit: just looked at the 3.5 MM errata.  No mention of alterations to the regeneration ability.

What if someone has reduced for example a troll using fire or acid  to 0 hit points or less(but more than -10) and then uses disintegrate?

Still wouldn't work (excepting the newly-found clause in the Regeneration glossary entry).

Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell ...

The disintegrate spell isn't doing anything to the troll's hit points, it's only stacking on nonlethal damage.

[NunoM]

Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell ...

The disintegrate spell isn't doing anything to the troll's hit points, it's only stacking on nonlethal damage.

This raises an interesting question, though... Does a regenerating creature automatically become stable when reduced to negative HPs?
It stands to reason that it does, but i couldn't find RAW on this...

[phaedrusxy]

Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell ...

The disintegrate spell isn't doing anything to the troll's hit points, it's only stacking on nonlethal damage.

This raises an interesting question, though... Does a regenerating creature automatically become stable when reduced to negative HPs?
It stands to reason that it does, but i couldn't find RAW on this...

If they only took non-lethal damage, then they aren't actually below zero. You track your subdual damage completely separately from your real damage, and when it exceeds your current hit point total, you're unconscious. So they could take 10000 non-lethal damage past their hit point total, and still be alive but unconscious, and slowly recover from it via their regeneration.

(click to show/hide)

This is why in 2nd edition the Ring of Regeneration was ungodly... I remember once in a game a character literally fell off of a high cliff, took thousands of points of damage, and then woke up a week later and was fine. 

If they took enough real damage to knock them below zero, then they'd start to bleed out like anyone else.

The bigger question is what happens if a creature with Fast Healing gets knocked below zero... as Fast Healing says it works like "normal healing", but faster. Normal healing doesn't work at all when you're below zero. That has its own special rules.

[ksbsnowowl]

The bigger question is what happens if a creature with Fast Healing gets knocked below zero... as Fast Healing says it works like "normal healing", but faster. Normal healing doesn't work at all when you're below zero. That has its own special rules.

Good catch on "normal healing" working oddly under 0.

In the Fiend Folio and a couple other books published around 2003, the fast healing entries for monsters (specifically the Half-Troll) state that the fast healing works so long as the creature has at least one hit point.  I've often found this odd, and at odds with the core rules for fast healing, but your point about normal healing functioning differently under 0 hp's makes me think the rules actually do not conflict at all.

[Jackinthegreen]

A house rule I'd put in place for that is increasing the chance to stabilize by 5 or 10% for each point of fast healing.

[Nickname Jr.]

Uuuuuh, the old clause allowed Disintegrate to trump Regeneration because when you remove the creature from existence you also remove its regeneration from existence, which is why the regeneration would then not function on the dust pile.  I admit it would be extra creepy and awesome for the creature to regenerate from that dust, so part of me wants to allow that to happen so I could see it, but I think the original idea was that the dust would be inert.

[NunoM]

I'm sorry for repeating this, but unless you find a way to have the Disintegrate spell deal acid or fire damage, the troll won't turn into a pile of dust. It just keeps adding up to the subdual pile of damage.

If they took enough real damage to knock them below zero, then they'd start to bleed out like anyone else.

The bigger question is what happens if a creature with Fast Healing gets knocked below zero... as Fast Healing says it works like "normal healing", but faster. Normal healing doesn't work at all when you're below zero. That has its own special rules.

Could you point me to a RAW source on this? I don't have time to use my google-fu on this

[phaedrusxy]

Which part?