Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?

[Endarire]

The Psion and Sorcerer are similar in theory:  They use metaphysical abilities spontaneously, and are both tier 2.  They can occupy similar roles.

At least so far, they seem balanced against each other.

Disregarding PrCs, substitution levels, Dragonspawn, and Loredrake (because they aren't the heart of the classes), which class is most likely better overall?  (If they're too close to tell, also note that.)

Case 1: Standard
It's a Psion with your discipline of choice compared to a standard Sorcerer.  Remember, Psions are INT-focused while Sorcerers are CHA-focused.  Many Sorcerers still need an INT of 12 or higher to get the skill points they need, or to fulfill other prereqs.  Psions can usually dump CHA and call it a day.

Case 2: Sorcerer++
Like case 1, except all Sorcerers are treated as 1 level higher for purposes of spells known and spells per day.  This Sorcerer boost requires you have at least 1 Sorcerer level.  (The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is nixed.)

Case 3: Psion++
Like case 1, except all Psions get to ignore the nerfs in Complete Psionic.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

... including the Powerstone recharge trick, too?
Awesome.
Case 4:  Psion +++ +++ +++ +++


Psion can use PsyRef and Metamorphic Transfer feat.
I think those ought'a do it.

[Solo]

Psion gets bonus feats. Sorcerers get a familiar.

Someone is clearly coming ahead here.

[Rebel7284]

I think the Psion comes out ahead in terms of flexibility as most powers can be augmented and thus remain useful through the levels.  With the right  spells, sorcerer may be ahead on raw power as there are more broken spells than powers.

Overall I think flexibility makes for a better character in game.

It IS very close though.  For example, power link shards and recharge setups change the power of psions greatly.

[sirpercival]

Psion gets bonus feats. Sorcerers get a familiar.

Someone is clearly coming ahead here.

Damn, I forgot how overpowered sorcerers are...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Psion gets bonus feats. Sorcerers get a familiar.

Someone is clearly coming ahead here.

Damn, I forgot how overpowered sorcerers are...

Don't worry you can nerf sorcerers if you make them take the ACF that trade out the familiar, I am partial to Metamagic Specialist

[sirpercival]

Psion gets bonus feats. Sorcerers get a familiar.

Someone is clearly coming ahead here.

Damn, I forgot how overpowered sorcerers are...

Don't worry you can nerf sorcerers if you make them take the ACF that trade out the familiar, I am partial to Metamagic Specialist

Oh, good call.

[SorO_Lost]

Psion's infinite PP (there is about dozen tricks for it)
vs
Sorcerer's Save DCs and the trivial fact spellcasting has better stuff.

Hmm... I'd Sorcerer, or a Psion with spells converted to powers (see also StP Erudite).

[carnivore]

Sorcerors have access to Reserve feats .... which greatly boost them, there is no Psionic analog to Reserve Feats... also since Spells Auto-scale with levels, that gives them an additional edge because Psions have to Pay extra PP for Augmentation

Personally I prefer Psions, but Sorcerors are actually a Stronger class due to Spell Mechanics .... and although Manifestion powers are effectively Stilled, Silent, and most require no materials ... they require expending Focus and refocusing when applying Metapsionic Feats which although IMHO is more balanced, it is also weaker

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Sorcerers originally had the issue of needing to spend a full round action to apply a metamagic feat to a spell since they cast spontaneously, but thanks to metamagic specialist and obtain familiar, all the sorc needs to do is take the ACF and spend a feat to get a familiar back.  Psions, however, have to spend at least two feats to get an alternate source for their psionic focus (psicrystal affinity and psicrystal containment) which comes online earliest at 3rd level, and yet another feat to become focused faster in general (psionic meditation), which doesn't come online until 5th (psion's bonus feat) or 6th from the natural feat progression.

Based on the far greater support for spells than psionics, plus the class differences, I'd be inclined to say a sorcerer is more powerful overall.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd say it changes over the levels. At early levels, a psion (at least a shaper) has the upper hand due to the reduced cost of various powers vs spells. Around level 10, a sorceror gets access to more or the broken spells and can do more. Mind you, certain tricks swap them around, but overall I'd say they follow that trend.

[midnight_v]

Psion gets bonus feats. Sorcerers get a familiar.

Someone is clearly coming ahead here.

psycrystal's should could.

[phaedrusxy]

Sorcerer is absolutely more powerful, just due to the much larger volume of supporting material. I prefer playing psions, though.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Do all those splat book spells count as the 'heart of the class?' If not psion by a mile. Otherwise psion is still on top but not by much

[nijineko]

i would say anything using a vancian based casting system is going to lose to point spend system eventually. personally, i like psions better for that very reason. the only almost-exception to that would be a beholder mage.

[betrayor]

i would say anything using a vancian based casting system is going to lose to point spend system eventually. personally, i like psions better for that very reason. the only almost-exception to that would be a beholder mage.

Sorcerer can use the magic point variant from unearthed arcana(of course if the dm allows it)....
But I do think that Psion has an edge mainly due to his better versality since a psion could change his known powers much more easily than a sorcerer could change his known spells............

[sirpercival]

Sorcerer has the advantage of auto-scaling effects...

[Mithril Leaf]

Spells > Powers
Psion > Sorcerer
If they had access to the same lists, the psion would be better by a landslide. As it is, I'd still pick a psion over a sorcerer.

[Solo]

i would say anything using a vancian based casting system is going to lose to point spend system eventually. personally, i like psions better for that very reason. the only almost-exception to that would be a beholder mage.

Sorcerer can use the magic point variant from unearthed arcana(of course if the dm allows it)....
But I do think that Psion has an edge mainly due to his better versality since a psion could change his known powers much more easily than a sorcerer could change his known spells............

Limited wish -> Psychic Reformation

[betrayor]

i would say anything using a vancian based casting system is going to lose to point spend system eventually. personally, i like psions better for that very reason. the only almost-exception to that would be a beholder mage.

Sorcerer can use the magic point variant from unearthed arcana(of course if the dm allows it)....
But I do think that Psion has an edge mainly due to his better versality since a psion could change his known powers much more easily than a sorcerer could change his known spells............

Limited wish -> Psychic Reformation

Yes he could use it to take the extra spell feat and change it whenever he needs a new spell,nice find....