Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?

[Azrael]

Actually, I think the issue is with the fact that you have your real body trapped defenselessly in your own wall with someone who is most likely better at melee combat than you.  I read your post and had a "wtf" thing myself.

Yeah, that's what I thought SorO was getting at too. Being trapped inside a wall because of an NPF is bad enough, but doing so willingly and trapping a hostile being inside there with you? Psions aren't exactly built for that. The Sorcerer has several melee support options thanks to the Devs not realizing how bad a Sorcerer can be when in melee, which means you'd be trapping yourself with someone capable of killing you.

Using Fission to do this is a bad idea, since the Fission clone is even weaker. Never mind the potential for Fission to end because of the NPF.

Guys...comon. Why would you use it on a melee combatant? I'm talking about caster vs caster here. Psions and Sorcerers already have an advantage against anything else and would never have to use such a trick to beat them. But against other casters this trick is golden, thats why I call it Mage Killer Clone its only purpose is to take out enemy casters and other psions since they are the only real threat to a psion. If you're trapped in there with another caster you have absolutely no fear because the best they can do is try to punch you with their bear hands and do a small amount of non-lethal damage each round. By then your clone (or yourself in this case...I figured I was just arguing rules as intended since it seems strange to me that you cant be in an AMF but your psionically created clone can...but the target is personal so I guess that's how it works) will have killed the enemy caster with one or two crystal shards because at that point they will have very little health and absolutely no magical protection.

My point about the celerity thing was this...

Both have a celerity like ability, both have contingency, but the psion can also use synchronicity. In terms of action economy the psion comes out slightly on top because they can stay one or two actions ahead of the sorcerer at all times. So if before you come out of the temporal acceleration you cast a synchronicity then they can counter your clone's activation of the AMF with celerity, you counter with your synchronicity action by disrupting whatever spell they cast, their contingency goes off (assumed its a steel cone hat enlarge item or something readied against AMF), and you use your anticipatory strike to...well actually I'm slightly at a loss at how to combat that trick (I wouldn't say it gives the sorcerer an advantage its just perhaps the one thing that can save them from this that you cant do anything about...and either of you can do it so its neutral advantage). I guess you could attempt to retrieve item or telekinetically knock it away before it transforms or something, but these will give the sorcerer saves and that means its not entirely full proof. Well, assuming the contingency isn't the hat trick and its to teleport away or something when and AMF is used against you (honestly very few people beyond these boards even know about the hat trick so its not something you will likely have to worry about...you probably already have the sorc trapped because their contingency is most likely not something to do with an AMF) then you simply use your anticipatory strike to interrupt the spell that goes off with their contingency (if you can do that...technically they aren't casting it so is it interruptable?).

In any case a min-maxed psion in terms of action economy manipulation should look something like this...

mid level psion

one regular action +1 action
Metamorphosis for choker (using action to manifest synchronicity of course) +1 action
schism w/ synchronicity +1 action
quickened synchronicity + 1 action
anticipatory strike +1 action (+3 technically because your schism should get to go as well, and your choker action)
contingency (varies but should be included) +1 action

So that's a potential of 8 actions a psion can take on any given round (obviously not every round because the swift/immediate would cancel each other out)

Lets look at a

mid level sorcerer

one normal action +1 action
polymorph into choker +1 action
celerity +1 action
quickened spell +1 action
contingency +1 action

so thats a total of 5 actions a sorcerer can take and most of them must be taken at the moment, the quickened spell cannot be a response action, which whittles it down to 4 actions a sorcerer can take in response whereas a psion can take all 8 in response due to synchronicity.

The general flaw with the psion is that he'll use so many power points doing this every round but if you assume pp recharge (which he can easily do at mid levels) then he can theoretically blow nearly all his pp in every fight.

I would also like to address Soro's point that I should have addressed before.

As a bunch mark of point comparison I named the Psion whom gets 53 more points in a system where 'spells' scale them selves and take on several elemental types making your known count more effective and contains in house break me for infinite known. However, if you look at things in reverse, IE the Spell Point Sorcerer is the benchmark for converting the Psion to Vancian casting, the Psion gets almost 10/10/10/10/9/9/9/9/8 for daily Spell Slots at 34 Intelligence. And not only would they have more Spells Per Day, they learn new 'spell' levels an entire level ahead of the Sorcerer as they are based off the Wizard class, including bonus Feats.

The Spell Point system doesn't prove Psions are inferior, it proves they are superior.

 

Maybe I don't understand your point but doesn't (that bolded section) prove that SP's are better, or at least equal to PP's? Like I said, maybe I don't understand and I'm too lazy to look at UA myself and do the math but if the psions only get 53 more points on average then don't arcane casters have the advantage. As you said, spells auto-scale whereas powers require augmentation. So a 4th level wings of flurry for example at 20th CL will do 20d6 points ot damage but only cost 7 (I assume) SP, while a 4th level damaging power of a psion will only do 7d6 at 20th ML without augmentation and cost 7 PP. In order to get it up to scale with the wings of flurry the psion would have to spend nearly three times as many power points...with only an extra 53 PP advantage over the arcane caster's SP that seems like it will wear out rather quickly and the psion will actually end up spending more PP to do the same things a sorcerer can do by spending significantly less.

But if you assume pp recharge that's another argument, I was just pointing out that, the way I see it, SP doesn't prove psions are superior it actually proves the opposite...if that's the only metric we are analyzing here.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

I wouldn't exactly call it a good idea to attempt expanding upon the Spell Point rules as detailed at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm if you haven't actually done the math on it.

[Azrael]

I'm not really "expanding on it" per-say, just assuming that what Soro said about an extra 53 points is correct. In that case I really don't have to do any complicated math because it can all be done in my head.

Sorcerer casts wings of flurry five times: pays 35 SP.

Psion casts 4th level damaging power (or any level really, they all scale relatively the same) and augments it up to ML five times: pays 100 pp.

With just five castings of a single power/spell a sorcerer has already gained the advantage SP/PP wise.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm not really "expanding on it" per-say, just assuming that what Soro said about an extra 53 points is correct. In that case I really don't have to do any complicated math because it can all be done in my head.

Sorcerer casts wings of flurry five times: pays 35 SP.

Psion casts 4th level damaging power (or any level really, they all scale relatively the same) and augments it up to ML five times: pays 100 pp.

With just five castings of a single power/spell a sorcerer has already gained the advantage SP/PP wise.

No, you have to augment spells the same way as powers with SP points. Please actually read the thing.

[Azrael]

I never really bothered much with UA. I own it and have a basic understanding of whats in it, but I rarely use it because its all variant rules.

I suppose if you do compare the two then hes right, psions are superior in that respect, but as I said before its not the only method of comparison.

I have very little time to read things other than books for my thesis these days 

[Mithril Leaf]

I never really bothered much with UA. I own it and have a basic understanding of whats in it, but I rarely use it because its all variant rules.

I suppose if you do compare the two then hes right, psions are superior in that respect, but as I said before its not the only method of comparison.

I have very little time to read things other than books for my thesis these days 

I was actually referring to the linked SRD page which explicitly dealt with the rules in question and the ones being referring to by everyone but yourself.

[Azrael]

I admitted I didn't read it and was ignorant of the exact rules prior to making any statement yet you berate me for not doing exactly what I said I didn't do?

Just what are you attempting to prove here?

My original point was that even if you look at one thing (i.e. SP vs PP) it alone doesn't prove or disprove anything. You have to take a more holistic approach to analyze something as complicated as this. Perhaps Soro only meant that if you look at this one dimensionally it "proves" psionics are superior, but I just need to make sure people are aware that there are many different dimensions of analysis.

[Sinfire Titan]

Azrael, there's no Psion equivalent for the Battle Sorcerer...

[Azrael]

Azrael, there's no Psion equivalent for the Battle Sorcerer...

I mean that is technically a variant so it doesn't "officially" count but even if we assume it does all the battle sorcerer really gets is a better BAB which can be easily overcome with a control body/solicit psicrystal option if the psion really wants to be good at fighting.

I'm not arguing for one class' superiority over the other in the big picture. I think it all depends on many circumstances such as level.

[SorO_Lost]

Wow...what an ass hole you are being Soro...it seems your rep has gone to your head.

Damn right. I started with a rep of asshole and intend to keep it.

However in this case, I fail to see how I've lived up to any asshole standard. As the others have pointed out, you're tactic was to run up and trap your self in an anti-magic/psionic field and hope that as a helpless commoner you can survive multiple rounds in melee against another opponent. Let alone the other assumptions you've had, like winning Initiative, or Synchronicity>Celerity, or "Energy shard" is even a printed power that wouldn't be nulled out, or Contingency(bite me) wouldn't be a factor, or the +6 BAB alone gives the Sorcerer multiple attacks and decent hit rate against the mundane armored commoner before him. There is just a ton of material in there and I simply posted "I laughed" rather than belate you for one of the stupidest tactics I've ever heard. Because maybe if you stopped and thought about it for a moment, at least you'd send your Clone into melee range as your first thought for improvement.

And no, I don't care about who you think you are in real life and don't want to hear some sob story about how great you think yours is to mine. In fact, I just don't do well with silly things like labels. Your tactic and post count said 14, I edited things to be more clear that there would a lot of problems with the idea in case you missed the it for the second time. Or apparently, a third.

The fact I actually took the moment to edit and toss a better hint at you seems very unassholeish to me. I hope I did better this time.

[Solo]

coughsummommirrormephitcough

[Unbeliever]

I had a longer post, but the internet ate it. 

Short version:  the Psion.

The reason is not based on any particular tricks or builds.  It's that the Psion takes the Sorcerer's one superpower -- spontaneous casting -- and does it much, much better.  And, the augment system, which I generally find to be a complete pain in the ass, does the metamagic thing better than actual metamagic feats and Sorcerers do.

That being said, I think the idea of having Vancian and non-Vancian casting in the same system unnecessarily fiddly.  And, like I said, I kind of hate the augment system.  I'd prefer a more flexible Sorcerer, one with better metamagic feat options and the feats Versatile Spellcaster and Arcane Manipulation baked in. 

[Azrael]

coughsummommirrormephitcough

If you look carefully in the summoning section in the PHB you'll clearly see that the rules disallow the mirror mephit from utilizing its simulacrum ability...I thought this was common knowledge in the community by now.

Wow...what an ass hole you are being Soro...it seems your rep has gone to your head.

Damn right. I started with a rep of asshole and intend to keep it.

However in this case, I fail to see how I've lived up to any asshole standard. As the others have pointed out, you're tactic was to run up and trap your self in an anti-magic/psionic field and hope that as a helpless commoner you can survive multiple rounds in melee against another opponent. Let alone the other assumptions you've had, like winning Initiative, or Synchronicity>Celerity, or "Energy shard" is even a printed power that wouldn't be nulled out, or Contingency(bite me) wouldn't be a factor, or the +6 BAB alone gives the Sorcerer multiple attacks and decent hit rate against the mundane armored commoner before him. There is just a ton of material in there and I simply posted "I laughed" rather than belate you for one of the stupidest tactics I've ever heard. Because maybe if you stopped and thought about it for a moment, at least you'd send your Clone into melee range as your first thought for improvement.

And no, I don't care about who you think you are in real life and don't want to hear some sob story about how great you think yours is to mine. In fact, I just don't do well with silly things like labels. Your tactic and post count said 14, I edited things to be more clear that there would a lot of problems with the idea in case you missed the it for the second time. Or apparently, a third.

The fact I actually took the moment to edit and toss a better hint at you seems very unassholeish to me. I hope I did better this time.

Your rep is going to your head because you clearly aren't thinking carefully...let me break it down for you because you clearly have an inability to understand how this IS a good idea and will work 99% of the time (particularly at mid level...at high level, not as often but its still a good tactic).

First of all, I assumed the psion would win initiative...that's pretty much always the assumption because in any high-powered battle it pretty much comes down to whoever wins initiative wins, this is just the way a psion wins automatically if he/she wins initiative.

Secondly, even if the psion doesn't win initiative he/she has a DISTINCT advantage over the mid-level sorcerer because the psion essentially has foresight and can manifest a power as an immediate action even when flat-footed with a simple little power called Sense Danger (Magic of Eberron).

Thirdly...wow a BAB of +6....multiple attacks....yeah so uhhhhh, the psion has that also...but that all really doesn't matter a bit because the sorcerer wont have more than one round to attack the psion while they are both trapped in the field (or the psion's clone as it were). So lets see...even if the sorcerer happens to have a masterwork greatsword (lets assume he/she was stupid and wasted a feat on it...not that this would ever happen) and gets 2 attacks against the psion's clone. and lets even assume they hit both times and both times happen to be confirmed critical hits (although this scenerio is very unlikely), lets assume even further that on both attacks the sorcerer rolls maximum damage. So thats a total of 48 damage (assumed a +0 str bonus because they are a sorcerer), and given reasonable assumptions on my part that is the maximum amount of damage a sorcerer trapped inside an AMF could do to a psion per round and it's being rather generous.

Having said that...you do realize that the sorcerer is going to die in the first round and certainly the second so none of that damage will matter...let me break down how this works for you since you clearly lack the ability to conceptualize it.

Round 1

It is assumed the psion wins initiative here, if the psion does not win initiative he/she can simply dimension door away with the action gained from sense danger...the sorcerer can respond with a celerity of their own to prevent this but if the psion is smart (and they should be with all that int) they would make their contingency to be something like..."If I am ever attacked when I am unable to take any actions use teleport/dimension door/whatever" Then, and only then if the sorcerer has prepared their own contingency to counter this very thing (and its doubtful because it will likely be for their own defense) can the sorcerer win this battle. But this is a very rare situation and hardly denotes an "advantage" on the sorcerers part.

So lets just assume the psion wins initiative

the psion starts by manifesting temporal reiteration as a swift action and augments it with power-like shards to give them the necessary number of rounds. Lets assume its 8 rounds (ML 13 (needed for fission) and a full set of 13 power-link shards would give 8 rounds).

temp round 1: uses full action to get to the sorcerer (might only need a single move action but lets just say hes far away).
temp round 2: manifests schism
temp round 3: manifests psionic fly
temp round 4: manifests metamorphosis turning self into a choker
temp round 5: manifests fission (unsure if the fissioned duplicate can now also act in the temporal acceleration rounds or is inert until it expires, I assume its the latter otherwise it would make more sense to do this first...it would also make this combo a lot easier) placing the duplicate on the square next to the sorcerer with 5ft in-between them.
temp round 6: manifests wall of ectoplasm so that it is exactly a 10ft diameter around the clone and about 20ft high (should easily be able to do this with the ML.
temp round 7: free round do what you want, manifest another wall on top of the first wall if you want, also use this round to fly directly above the wall in the center so you are looking down on the sorcerer and the clone.
temp round 8: manifest synchronicity (twinned if you can manage it), use choker action to manifest another.

Normal round 1 resumes

The psions clone now acts by manifesting a null psioncs field effectively trapping the sorcerer and itself inside. The sorcerer can do 2 things before this occurs, use an immediate action like celerity which will get interrupted by one of the psions 2-3 synchronicity actions, contingency goes off which (depending on what it is...like the hat trick may be difficult to deal with but there should be some way to either knock it off before it grows and envelops the sorcerer) is also interrupted with one of the psion's other synchronicity actions.

The sorcerer is now trapped with the clone in an AMF...barring rare circumstances this will occur 99% of the time. The psion uses the rest of his actions: 1 normal, 1 from the schism, and 1 from the choker (and any left over from the previous synchronicities) to pummel the sorcerer from above with CRYSTAL SHARDS (I don't know what this energy shard business is all about...you clearly are not reading my posts) which go through AMF because they are instantaneous conjuration/creation effects.

Lets look at the damage...

normal action: Crystal shard: Maximized and augmented with power-link shards (assumed ML 13): 210 damage

move action: regain focus

choker action: Crystal shard Maximized and augmented with power-link shards: 210 damage

Fuck the schismed action we dont even need it.


So...Soro...are you telling me that my clone is in ANY sort of danger being in an AMF with a dead sorcerer that just took over 400 points of piercing damage? And even if we assume I missed with one of them the sorcerer still took 210 points of damage which is more damage than any mid or high level unbuffed sorcerer would have in HP.

Even if the psion sat there an laughed the first round and gave the sorcerer a shot at his clone and the sorcerer was unbelievably lucky and got 4 crits with a greatsword the clone most likely has more than 48 Hp and can survive the damage for at least one round.





So next time Soro...before you post that something is ridiculous, please at least attempt to understand it because it could be beyond your current conceptions of the game. I don't care who you are and how long you have been playing this game (and I guarantee I have been playing it just as long, not to mention I have been a member of this community since 2003 when we were still on the WOTC boards) you DON'T know everything about it and shouldn't act like you do lest you make a fool of yourself as you did in this case...

Oh and BTW, my Azrael trumps your Mr.Invincible...so suck on that! 

[betrayor]

Actually while it is almost sure that the RAI is that you can not have the Mirror Mephit use its similacrum ability,
the wording is dubius enough,that if for example you dominate the Mephit it could use it....

A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

See the bolded text,that unlike its inability to use summoning abilities it simply says that it refuses to use spell-like abilities that would cost xp....
The question is,is there any way to convince it to use the ability?

Like I said it is somewhat dubious......... 

Edit:Typo....
Forgot a 'not' which changed the whole meaning of the post....

[Phoenix00]

It IS very close though.  For example, power link shards and recharge setups change the power of psions greatly.

I can not repeat the awesomeness that is power link shards.  For 3,000 gp (cost if you buy a single shard) and losing 1 HP (cost of implanting a shard) you get an effective 6 power points per day (3 times a day as a free action you get 2 additional power points to use with augmenting.)  You can have a number of shards equal to your manifester level and their abilities specifically stack so you can implement multiple shards at once.

1 pp per day for 500gp is a good return on investment.  So a single shard is like getting a 3rd level pearl of power plus 1 extra power point.  A normal 3rd level pearl of power costs 9,000 gp.  2 shards (11 power points plus 1 extra) is like getting a 6th level pearl of power for 6,000 gp where an arcane spellcaster would spend about 36,000 gp.  3 shards (17 power points plus 1 extra) for 9,000 gp is like getting a 9th level pearl of power where an arcane spellcaster would spend 81,000 gp.

You can craft your own shards to get the effect at half price (1,500 gp and 120 xp) if you have craft universal item.

The shard are only meant for a single race kalashtar (which is one of the strongest psionic races) but use psionic device fixes that and shaper (one of the strongest psionic disciplines) get UPD as a class skill.

---------------------------

Lastly the item is written as intended to allow you to break the manifester level cap.  Thus a level 6 character can be throwing out level 9 astral constructs 3 times a day(6 shards increase ml by 12, 6 base ml equals 18 total.  Each shard can be used 3 times a day).   Only limiting factor though is wealth for a level 6 character should only have 13,000 gp and if he bought the shards on the open market they would cost 18,000 gp (9,000 gp, 720 xp, and a semi useful feat if he crafted them himself).  Wealth though is not a big limiting factor though for I have already shown earlier in the post how cheap power link shards are.

[Solo]

Actually while it is almost sure that the RAI is that you can not have the Mirror Mephit use its similacrum ability,
the wording is dubius enough,that if for example you dominate the Mephit it could use it....

A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

See the bolded text,that unlike its inability to use summoning abilities it simply says that it refuses to use spell-like abilities that would cost xp....
The question is,is there any way to convince it to use the ability?

Like I said it is somewhat dubious......... 

Edit:Typo....
Forgot a 'not' which changed the whole meaning of the post....

[Azrael]

Thus a level 6 character can be throwing out level 9 astral constructs 3 times a day

That's one of my FAVORITE low level abuses of the shards! Though I think I was doing it with a 7th level char because I didn't craft them myself...I guess I just didn't want to assume my GM would be nice and let me spend the exp during char creation.

But yeah, PlS (Power-Link Shards) are pretty much essential for any psion.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Not to be judgmental of the author, but the guy was f*cking retarded.

Tell us how you really feel 

But seriously soro, where did you get all that rep from! I've never heard you say anything nice.  I'm a "can't we all just get along" person so, of course, trolls love me.

[SorO_Lost]

Not to be judgmental of the author, but the guy was f*cking retarded.

Tell us how you really feel 

But seriously soro, where did you get all that rep from! I've never heard you say anything nice.  I'm a "can't we all just get along" person so, of course, trolls love me.

I'm spiteful and quick thinking. Sarda will kill me last. ^_^

No really, idk. I make handbooks, offer great advice, capable of eating my own words at times, and will verbally bash morons as required until they break my mind. Which I'm damn near that point. I mean, do I point out the Sorcerer readily wins Initiative and that whole glass cannon I won it assumption stems from two casters with the same spell access, not one is a Psion?
How you can't DDoor in response to Celerity used in response to your Immediate action granted by Sense Danger?
How ML13 doesn't actually allow you to manifest Temporal Acceleration through Sense Danger?
The fact he is using at least four different discipline powers as a Psion who can only normally use one.
Three quarters of your SP spent and countless assumptions later, you're end result of two 50% chance to hit attacks is a bit lack luster?
Maybe on the Sorcerer side, how by the 13th level the Sorcerer probably has Ex based flight?
That Extraordinary Spell Aim means the Sorcerer does all of this whilst being immune to his own AMF?
That next level or at least Kobolds have access to Planar Bubble for a ten to one turn ratio?
How more cost effective to buy an Antimagic Torc and glue it to an arrow and just shoot a Quickened Orb of Acid?
How spellcasting PrCs can be used to net mundane based immunity to damage?
How his own example cites, I think 48 damage, which is enough to kill a Psion with less than 16 Con in an Anti-Field?
That maybe the Sorcerer shoots a Sudden Stunning Bolt at the Clone, thanks to leaving AMF unsuppresses it's power?
The giant glowing neon sign that says wow, took you 13 levels to come up with a tactic, guess Sorcerer wins the first 12 by default.
I just don't know, but my head is starting to hurt. Hell, that's just the ones I can recall and I barely read his posts.

That fact that he still has to validate the reason I'm bashing him is because some numbers I don't pay attention to probably says something as well. But I'm pretty sure I shouldn't appear angry with him, it's not his fault he is the way he is.

[Necrosnoop110]

Spells > Powers
Psion > Sorcerer
If they had access to the same lists, the psion would be better by a landslide. As it is, I'd still pick a psion over a sorcerer.

+1

That's how I see it as well. The Sorcerer has it better when comes to spells vs powers, and the Psion has it better when it comes to class vs class. I think what this shakes out to is that the Sorcerer is slightly more powerful and the Psion is slightly more versatile. If I was forced to choose a class to run as a PC I'd go Psion over Sorcerer.

Peace,
Necro