Author Topic: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?  (Read 36064 times)

Offline Azrael

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2012, 12:59:10 PM »

1. How you can't DDoor in response to Celerity used in response to your Immediate action granted by Sense Danger?
2. How ML13 doesn't actually allow you to manifest Temporal Acceleration through Sense Danger?
3. The fact he is using at least four different discipline powers as a Psion who can only normally use one.
4. Three quarters of your SP spent and countless assumptions later, you're end result of two 50% chance to hit attacks is a bit lack luster?
5. Maybe on the Sorcerer side, how by the 13th level the Sorcerer probably has Ex based flight?
6. That Extraordinary Spell Aim means the Sorcerer does all of this whilst being immune to his own AMF?
7. That next level or at least Kobolds have access to Planar Bubble for a ten to one turn ratio?
8. How more cost effective to buy an Antimagic Torc and glue it to an arrow and just shoot a Quickened Orb of Acid?
9. How spellcasting PrCs can be used to net mundane based immunity to damage?
10. How his own example cites, I think 48 damage, which is enough to kill a Psion with less than 16 Con in an Anti-Field?
11. That maybe the Sorcerer shoots a Sudden Stunning Bolt at the Clone, thanks to leaving AMF unsuppresses it's power?
12. The giant glowing neon sign that says wow, took you 13 levels to come up with a tactic, guess Sorcerer wins the first 12 by default.
13. I just don't know, but my head is starting to hurt. Hell, that's just the ones I can recall and I barely read his posts.

14.That fact that he still has to validate the reason I'm bashing him is because some numbers I don't pay attention to probably says something as well. But I'm pretty sure I shouldn't appear angry with him, it's not his fault he is the way he is.

I numbered them so I didn't have to go through the trouble of multi-quoting.

1. You can if your contingency is geared towards being attacked when you can take no actions (its loose wording but w/e). Basically, you ddoor from sense danger, he responds with celerity and attacks you or something and your contingency goes off ddooring you once again. The only way a sorc could come out on top here is if his contingency (or a crafted one) is geared towards responding to that situation, which is highly improbable. Only a CoP would have you that prepared (theoretically).

2. You can't manifest temp accel through sense danger anyway, its a swift action and sense danger clearly states that the power must be a standard action.

3. Feats...and what 4? I'm only counting 3 from different disciplines: metamorphosis and fission, schism, and null psionics. In order to do this at level 13 you need to be a egoist so that takes care of meta and fission, exp know schism, and psy ref an exp know null psionics.

4. I assume you mean PP, and these attacks do NOT have a 50% chance to hit, they are touch attacks and at that level you have a +6 BAB, and probably a base dex stat of around 16 (I usually give my characters 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 put wherever I want, but that's just my system), you'll probably have at least a +2 to dex item if not a +6 by then so thats at least an 18 so thats +10 to hit on a touch attack against a sorcerers touch AC in an AMF which will most likely be no higher than a 14 so you only have to roll a 4 or higher...really not that difficult.

5. I'm not sure if this is a probably...I would say most likely not, but ok, theres one potential way out of it...but you could also use the hemisphere option of the wall of ectoplasm and then use burrowing power to get through it from the outside...its a bit less damage but should still easily get the job done.

6. Fair point, I forgot about Ex Spell Aim...in this case the sorc can do something like forcecage around foe and teleport inside with AMF up...so that does help the sorc a bit. I'm actually not sure about the interaction between 2 AMF that overlap each other at the center, I know in the PHB they just overlap on the edges but what if two people with AMF are standing next to each other, do the AMF cancel each other out and thus create no AMF (since they are both technically spells), or would the sorc and psion just be mutually in an AMF now?

7. I mean with CoP the sorc would never lose either but I'm not trying to bring super game-breaking cheese into this. But I suppose its a fair point, though I have always said by (something you can call) RAI being inside a bubble with different time would act just like a time stop effect and make everything outside the bubble immune to everything...not an official ruling but since time stop is essentially slowing down time and not stopping it, and the bubble does something similar, this is how I as a GM would rule it...but that's still RAI and we aren't really talking about that.

8. Not sure...how cost effective is it? Also, its less sound because there are ways to just step out of it...but I suppose its a valid strategy too.

9. I mean they usually can't do that without spells, and the AMF would cancel those out. Thats basically the reason why this tactic is effective...its a "when all else fails and my enemy seems to be immune to everything" use this tactic because their immunities are most likely in-part due to magic. Mr. Invincible is the semi-exception to this but he is high level...though I think I have made a Mr.Invincible-esque ECL 10 using mostly templates before...I would have to check.

10. Probably 14 con (if we are using my stat system) and I think a 13th level char with a +2 bonus to con is likely to have a bit more than 48 hp, not much more, but a bit...and that 48 damage is the worst case scenario and is so unlikely to happen I only mentioned it to show that even the worst isn't bad enough. Also, as I have already stated the psion is capable of killing him on the first round, the sorc wont even get an attack off so its moot.

11. I'm actually not familiar with a sudden stunning bolt...but either way it should be easily counterable by the psions many readied actions.

12. Actually its cloudy...I would say the sorc definitely does not win the first 9 at least...pretty much due to power-link shards...so maybe somewhere between 10-12 the sorc has a slight advantage...I don't even know.

13. I'm sorry  :( I have that effect on people  :D

14. And it's not your fault for you being the way you are either...doesn't mean I have to like it or accept it...which I didn't...hence the post.

My whole point is showing you that my Mage-Killer Clone is not a stupid tactic as you pointed out and it is actually a very good, well thought out strategy...is it necessarily the reason mid-level psions have an advantage over sorcs...I dunno, I first postulated that it was but I did forget about things like Ex Spell Aim so maybe I'm wrong, but that hardly negates my real point which is that you clearly overlooked the real utility of this combo and that it isn't a stupid idea and can actually have some pretty good uses when applied correctly...that's all  :D

P.S. Are you just trolling me at this point because I feel that a man of your *ahem* status should have been able to answer many of these questions yourself.

Offline Vasja

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2012, 01:32:20 PM »
I don't understand how a strategy that is admitted to fail when losing initiative and sometimes fails when winning can be considered 'and advantage' over someone.

Offline Azrael

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2012, 03:54:41 PM »
Easy...no strategy is full-proof, it's just your best option in a lot of cases. Even chess or go masters when using a strategy don't have even close to a 90% or higher success ratio, this one does...it would be equivalent to your opponent beginning the game with no pawns, or no bishops and rooks. A seasoned chess master might be able to prevail in this situation, but it is certainly more difficult, and it certainly lowers his options and available strategies.

Of course there are counters to this, but 99% of the time it will work. I don't know if it's an advantage per-say, but its still a valid strategy one can utilize, and by using this strategy it basically forces the battle to be decided in the first turn, therefore increasing the level of play. Its not admitted to fail when losing initiative, it can fail easier if initiative is lost (i.e. it has a slightly smaller chance of success), but only if the opponent locks you down or kills you in the first round. As long as I get a turn its most likely to succeed. In other-words, if the opponents build is incapable of responding with more actions than the psion (which is unlikely given the action economy advantage of the psion), lacks a lock-down combo similar to this, or lacks the ability to kill the psion in the first turn (bypassing all his protections), then this strategy will most-likely succeed.

The good thing about this strategy is it basically negates magical defenses. Your opponent can have whatever defensive spells and protections active on himself, even ones that make them immune to damage, and by utilizing this strategy it effectively negates them. You don't have to worry about making a check when attempting to dispel, or getting past absorption rods, or spell-blades, every magical protection your opponent has is gone.

What this strategy does do is make the game play all about actions. It makes actions the most valuable resource, because whoever can manage their actions best in this situation will win the fight, and as I mentioned before, the psion has an advantage over the sorcerer (at least at low-mid level) in this regard.


Again I would like to clarify...I like both psions and sorcerers and don't have a clear preference for one over the other. I am not arguing because I am biased in some way about one class' obvious superiority over the other, I'm just trying to look at things systematically and add to the discussion with my observations and knowledge. Most of this defense I am putting up was merely to dispute what Soro said about my Mage-Killer Clone technique being stupid and useless. I am very proud of its originality and utility and I don't take lightly to someone calling it stupid and will do everything in my power to prove them wrong; and I think I have done so very well if I do say so myself. In this vast universe of min-maxing I can only claim originality on a handful of things, and this is one of them, thus I must defend its honour.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 04:01:15 PM by Azrael »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2012, 07:18:41 PM »
Most of this defense I am putting up was merely to dispute what Soro said about my Mage-Killer Clone technique being stupid and useless. I am very proud of its originality and utility and I don't take lightly to someone calling it stupid and will do everything in my power to prove them wrong; and I think I have done so very well if I do say so myself. In this vast universe of min-maxing I can only claim originality on a handful of things, and this is one of them, thus I must defend its honour.
I already knew that, but instead of going omg I need to defend the crap out it, all the problems you're blowing past are serious concerns and they sit in a pile, each one making it more and more unlikely it will ever work.

What you ultimately should have done is instead of defending it, you should be improving it. Like for instance, did you ever once considering sharing Psionic Contingency(manifest null field when say super mage clone power!) with your Psicrystal, then remanifest an unshared Contingency for w/e the heck you want. This 18th level combo completely does away with the need of a clone, at least two standard actions, and the target inside at least sports a minimum of 26 AC in the Anti-Field. And if the character in the wall dies, you won't lose an entire level. Still contains several problems, but totally does away with becoming a commoner and saying hit me please.

And if you wanted to run around in an Anti-Field murdering people with spells, you should probably use a better class. Like Sorcerer, or Wizard. Because Spellcasting>Manifesting, and it's that concept is why the Sorcerer will always remain the better of the two. That, and the kick them while their down called Mental Pinnacle, because it's not just the Psion wanting to use Psychic Chirurgery to learn every power in the game.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 11:30:10 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Azrael

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2012, 12:42:56 AM »
I already knew that, but instead of going omg I need to defend the crap out it, all the problems you're blowing past are serious concerns and they sit in a pile, each one making it more and more unlikely it will ever work.

It didn't seem to me like you knew it, and I did address all the problems you stated in a previous post, perhaps you missed it.

What you ultimately should have done is instead of defending it, you should be improving it. Like for instance, did you ever once considering sharing Psionic Contingency(manifest null field when say super mage clone power!) with your Psicrystal, then remanifest an unshared Contingency for w/e the heck you want. This 18th level combo completely does away with the need of a clone, at least two standard actions, and the target inside at least sports a minimum of 26 AC in the Anti-Field. And if the character in the wall dies, you won't lose an entire level. Still contains several problems, but totally does away with becoming a commoner and saying hit me please.

I am always up for improving it, I never stated otherwise, but as I said previously, I did address the issues you brought up (see previous posts), and perhaps I would have been more open to discussion about improving it if it didn't seem as if I had to defend it.

But you are right (although its an 18th level combo and not technically applicable for mid level psions), the psicrystal is a better trick in many ways, mostly because it allows the psion to keep their buffs up after the trick (when fission expires all powers and spells on both go poof, which is a slight problem with the Mage-Killer Clone, but you're only using this technique if you are out of all other options in most cases).

And if you wanted to run around in an Anti-Field murdering people with spells, you should probably use a better class. Like Sorcerer, or Wizard. Because Spellcasting>Manifesting, and it's that concept is why the Sorcerer will always remain the better of the two. That, and the kick them while their down called Mental Pinnacle, because it's not just the Psion wanting to use Psychic Chirurgery to learn every power in the game.

I agree, Spellcasting does have better options than manifesting (especially at high level), but that's not at all what I was talking about. I am merely saying that the whole Time Stop-Forcecage-have your familiar shapechange into a beholder lock that wizards and sorcerers can do isn't entirely exclusive to them. If needed, psions have a similar option, although its not nearly as good, it still works. And I must reiterate, this technique is only to be used against other casters that use spells to basically be immune to everything, or just any spellcaster you cant kill with normal means. For every other class you already have a major advantage so the Mage-Killer Clone isn't necessary (nor would it be helpful against characters good at fighting).



Offline nijineko

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2012, 01:31:39 AM »
i'm suddenly reminded of the spell immunity recharge "method", which grants complete immunity to all spells to a single psionic character and potentially recharges their power points for the duration. quite fun to arrange for it in the middle of combat when the spells are flying fast and furious, and you just get recharged from it all. doable by about 7th level, iirc, but you'll need a friend and/or an item to pull it off. combine with font of power and temporal reiteration (at higher level) for 24/7 spell immunity.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 01:33:45 AM by nijineko »

Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2012, 02:46:08 AM »
i'm suddenly reminded of the spell immunity recharge "method", which grants complete immunity to all spells to a single psionic character and potentially recharges their power points for the duration. quite fun to arrange for it in the middle of combat when the spells are flying fast and furious, and you just get recharged from it all. doable by about 7th level, iirc, but you'll need a friend and/or an item to pull it off. combine with font of power and temporal reiteration (at higher level) for 24/7 spell immunity.

Would that method involve an StPE, some persist power, and Dweomer Of Transference?

Offline nijineko

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2012, 11:31:54 AM »
stpe is optional. otherwise, more or less.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2012, 01:41:13 PM »
i'm suddenly reminded of the spell immunity recharge "method", which grants complete immunity to all spells to a single psionic character and potentially recharges their power points for the duration. quite fun to arrange for it in the middle of combat when the spells are flying fast and furious, and you just get recharged from it all. doable by about 7th level, iirc, but you'll need a friend and/or an item to pull it off. combine with font of power and temporal reiteration (at higher level) for 24/7 spell immunity.
Would that method involve an StPE, some persist power, and Dweomer Of Transference?
This is actually a lot easier for a spellcaster to use on themselves, though. They only need to be considered psionic, which can be gained via a feat, or I'm sure through other means (likely some kind of Polymorph/Shapechange abuse). Dweomer of Transference is a spell, after all. And a broken one.
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Offline nijineko

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2012, 03:06:05 AM »
i'm guessing that they intended it to read that any spell the caster subsequently cast at the affected psionic target gains the listed benefit. still fairly cheap as an item if you don't want to bother with a caster. or get it crafted as a contingent spell.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2012, 12:52:00 PM »
i'm guessing that they intended it to read that any spell the caster subsequently cast at the affected psionic target gains the listed benefit. still fairly cheap as an item if you don't want to bother with a caster. or get it crafted as a contingent spell.
As a custom item yeah it would be, lest not fall into thinking all spells as custom items should be same set price through.

As a Wand or Scroll, it requires UMD, which costs 2 points per barring Feat tricks. And you'll need a decent bonus if you want to use it in combat, which given it's 1/rnd/cl you will. But the real question to ask is why? Metapower(linked power) and Mindfeeder gives you two ways to obtain as much PP as you far, far more than even a Sorcerer has in Spell Slots making this a defensive based buff, but it's a spellcaster's buff not a Psions.

Just play a spellcaster and pick up Hidden Talent(psionic minor creation), poof you're psionic creature.
With DC 35+ poisons and semi-unlimited supply of the Luhix drug and Marruspawn potions :D

Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2012, 03:26:58 AM »
i'm guessing that they intended it to read that any spell the caster subsequently cast at the affected psionic target gains the listed benefit. still fairly cheap as an item if you don't want to bother with a caster. or get it crafted as a contingent spell.
As a custom item yeah it would be, lest not fall into thinking all spells as custom items should be same set price through.

As a Wand or Scroll, it requires UMD, which costs 2 points per barring Feat tricks. And you'll need a decent bonus if you want to use it in combat, which given it's 1/rnd/cl you will. But the real question to ask is why? Metapower(linked power) and Mindfeeder gives you two ways to obtain as much PP as you far, far more than even a Sorcerer has in Spell Slots making this a defensive based buff, but it's a spellcaster's buff not a Psions.

Just play a spellcaster and pick up Hidden Talent(psionic minor creation), poof you're psionic creature.
With DC 35+ poisons and semi-unlimited supply of the Luhix drug and Marruspawn potions :D

It's not for the PP, it's for having the defense against all targeted spells. It absorbs all spells used on the creature.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2012, 07:13:58 PM »
i'm guessing that they intended it to read that any spell the caster subsequently cast at the affected psionic target gains the listed benefit. still fairly cheap as an item if you don't want to bother with a caster. or get it crafted as a contingent spell.
As a custom item yeah it would be, lest not fall into thinking all spells as custom items should be same set price through.

As a Wand or Scroll, it requires UMD, which costs 2 points per barring Feat tricks. And you'll need a decent bonus if you want to use it in combat, which given it's 1/rnd/cl you will. But the real question to ask is why? Metapower(linked power) and Mindfeeder gives you two ways to obtain as much PP as you far, far more than even a Sorcerer has in Spell Slots making this a defensive based buff, but it's a spellcaster's buff not a Psions.

Just play a spellcaster and pick up Hidden Talent(psionic minor creation), poof you're psionic creature.
With DC 35+ poisons and semi-unlimited supply of the Luhix drug and Marruspawn potions :D

It's not for the PP, it's for having the defense against all targeted spells. It absorbs all spells used on the creature.

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Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2012, 01:33:44 AM »
i'm guessing that they intended it to read that any spell the caster subsequently cast at the affected psionic target gains the listed benefit. still fairly cheap as an item if you don't want to bother with a caster. or get it crafted as a contingent spell.
As a custom item yeah it would be, lest not fall into thinking all spells as custom items should be same set price through.

As a Wand or Scroll, it requires UMD, which costs 2 points per barring Feat tricks. And you'll need a decent bonus if you want to use it in combat, which given it's 1/rnd/cl you will. But the real question to ask is why? Metapower(linked power) and Mindfeeder gives you two ways to obtain as much PP as you far, far more than even a Sorcerer has in Spell Slots making this a defensive based buff, but it's a spellcaster's buff not a Psions.

Just play a spellcaster and pick up Hidden Talent(psionic minor creation), poof you're psionic creature.
With DC 35+ poisons and semi-unlimited supply of the Luhix drug and Marruspawn potions :D

It's not for the PP, it's for having the defense against all targeted spells. It absorbs all spells used on the creature.

(click to show/hide)

But if you're a StPE you can use it for PP too!   :lmao

Offline bobtheapple

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2012, 01:31:27 PM »
The Psion and Sorcerer are similar in theory:  They use metaphysical abilities spontaneously, and are both tier 2.  They can occupy similar roles.

At least so far, they seem balanced against each other.

Disregarding PrCs, substitution levels, Dragonspawn, and Loredrake (because they aren't the heart of the classes), which class is most likely better overall?  (If they're too close to tell, also note that.)

Case 1: Standard
It's a Psion with your discipline of choice compared to a standard Sorcerer.  Remember, Psions are INT-focused while Sorcerers are CHA-focused.  Many Sorcerers still need an INT of 12 or higher to get the skill points they need, or to fulfill other prereqs.  Psions can usually dump CHA and call it a day.

Case 2: Sorcerer++
Like case 1, except all Sorcerers are treated as 1 level higher for purposes of spells known and spells per day.  This Sorcerer boost requires you have at least 1 Sorcerer level.  (The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is nixed.)

Case 3: Psion++
Like case 1, except all Psions get to ignore the nerfs in Complete Psionic.

First of all, I'd like to point out that Feats, Skills, and Magic Items are also not "the heart of classes," they, like alternate class features and racial selections, are options a player has to augment the base class' abilities.  I also note that Kalashtar, the race required to use power-linked shards and has a bonus 20pp (not much, but its there), is not off the table, but Kobolds with Draconic Rite of Passage, Loredrake, and Dragonspawn all are.  Thus, for the purposes of this thread, one can take races that make Psion better, but not races that make Sorcerer better.  What's more, Sorcerers benefit more from PRCs than Psions do: psionic prc options are limited, where there is a vast amount of options for Sorcerers, and Psions get class features as they level while Sorcerer is a front loaded class (though this last point is an important component in comparing classes, so I will concede its validity.).  Also, when taking 20 levels of a base class you don't NEED skills at all, and its unnecessary this shortcoming of the Sorcerer class in posing the question, especially without pointing out any shortcomings in the Psion.  Unless, of course, it was your intention to shape the debate.

Moving along, as I see it, the points in favor of Psion over the Sorcerer are as follows:
1A. They receive a higher power/spell level earlier than Sorcerers.
1B. They can know more high level powers/spells than Sorcerers can.
1C. They have more versatility in how they spend their power points than Sorcerers have in spending their spells/day.
1D. They receive more skill points than Sorcerers in normal play.
1E. They have better skill options than Sorcerers, in particular UPD, Autohypnosis, and Social skills depending on discipline.
1F. They receive bonus feats.

Likewise, as I see it, the advantages a Sorcerer has over a Psion are:
2A. At 1st, 6th, 8th level and higher, they have more 'points' per day than Psions.
2B. There are more arcane spells to choose from than psionic powers.
2C. Their metamagic mechanic is slightly better than Psion's metamagic mechanic.
2D. They do not need to pay to augment their spells.
2E. They have more support in general, for feats, prcs, and itemization.
2F. They have cantrips and a familiar.

Now for a more in-depth look.
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In my mind Sorcerers and Psions are roughly equal, in so much as they belong on the same tier together.  Saying with absolute certainty that one is better than the other is just not possible, they are both different classes that draw from two very different spell lists, and have different features, feat options, skill lists, and prcs.  Saying anything else will just start endless pointless arguments over whose favorite pet build can beat whose, whose spell combo is most broken, and whose penis is the largest.  In the end, no one learns anything, no opinions are changed, and everyone moves on convinced in having met one more idiot/jackass/whatever on the internet.  Which is great by the way, don't get me wrong, and its part of the reason we love the internet so much.

Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2012, 01:42:50 PM »


(click to show/hide)
I just flipped to this tab from reading some Memebase stuff. That gave me SUCH mental whiplash.

Bravo, sir.

Oh, err, on-topic.. Sorcerers are cooler. Psions are psi-pencil-pushing dweebs! Nyah!

(Really, all considered, they've got pretty good parity between them.)
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Offline nijineko

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2012, 03:50:34 PM »
i'm guessing that they intended it to read that any spell the caster subsequently cast at the affected psionic target gains the listed benefit. still fairly cheap as an item if you don't want to bother with a caster. or get it crafted as a contingent spell.
As a custom item yeah it would be, lest not fall into thinking all spells as custom items should be same set price through.

As a Wand or Scroll, it requires UMD, which costs 2 points per barring Feat tricks. And you'll need a decent bonus if you want to use it in combat, which given it's 1/rnd/cl you will. But the real question to ask is why? Metapower(linked power) and Mindfeeder gives you two ways to obtain as much PP as you far, far more than even a Sorcerer has in Spell Slots making this a defensive based buff, but it's a spellcaster's buff not a Psions.

Just play a spellcaster and pick up Hidden Talent(psionic minor creation), poof you're psionic creature.
With DC 35+ poisons and semi-unlimited supply of the Luhix drug and Marruspawn potions :D

isn't mindfeeder the weapon enhancement? and isn't that 1/d anyhow?

Offline zugschef

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2012, 05:05:58 PM »
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In my mind Sorcerers and Psions are roughly equal, in so much as they belong on the same tier together.  Saying with absolute certainty that one is better than the other is just not possible, they are both different classes that draw from two very different spell lists, and have different features, feat options, skill lists, and prcs.  Saying anything else will just start endless pointless arguments over whose favorite pet build can beat whose, whose spell combo is most broken, and whose penis is the largest.  In the end, no one learns anything, no opinions are changed, and everyone moves on convinced in having met one more idiot/jackass/whatever on the internet.  Which is great by the way, don't get me wrong, and its part of the reason we love the internet so much.
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excellent post, sir.  :clap

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #78 on: September 24, 2012, 06:40:55 AM »
Isn't mindfeeder the weapon enhancement? and isn't that 1/d anyhow?
Yes & no, it's a none-stacking gain a total 1pp per 5 damage dealt on a critical hit for an hour (per MiC).

Nice thought through, yet another one of the methods of infinite PP stems from spellcasting.

Some thoughts I had after reading Bob's post.

1. The Psion doesn't know more
On paper a Psion knows three more Powers than Sorcerer knows Spells. However, Summon Monster, [Limited] Wish, Planar Binding, Mental Pennicle (sp), etc. effectively grant a larger effective known list than a simple easy to measure number. Also when it comes to expanding, the Psion has it's 9th level Power, the Sorcerer does too, but also PrCs and True Dragon made Runestaffs (which means all cleric/druid spells are accessible).

2. The PP/SP table is misleading.
Base class wise, yeah the Sorcerer seems to only need 100 SP over the Psion, but even at level 20 a Psion pretty much gains +10PP per two ability points. Spell Slot wise, you can gain multiple slots on certain ability gains, and those 9th level ones are worth +17 all by them selves. It's why base class wise they are 100 apart, and at 34 they are almost 200. At even larger numbers, this becomes even wider.

3. Cha>Int.
Int's main benefit is a fluff excuse for metagaming which is countered by character knowledge (even at int 12, you're character is smarter than you btw) and really doesn't grant a combat bonus - unless you want to be a dick and demand Feat tax for Knowledge Devotion cus you're like omg I can finally use my Int for something. - whereas Cha readily grants bonuses. Iaijutsu Focus gives damage now, not later. A Shapechanged Sorcerer has better than the creature Save DCs with it's Supernatural Abilities, even spell wise you can obtain Cha to AC/Saves while no such spell exists for Int. In fact, even accounting for a 2% chance of +4 Int from a Disease, the maximum possible Charisma without PoA/LA is at least four points higher, with Dragon Magazine allowed it exceeds over sixteen points. Combined with most special traits being based on Charisma, it's pretty accurate to say the Sorcerer is simply better at Save DC related tactics.

Int grants skills. But mundanes play with skills, spellcasters create new hallways to get around traps, fly instead of climbing, scry-die snipering instead of Hide/Move, teleport instead of Tumble, etc. Heck, a Wand of Guidance of the Avatar replaces the need for skill ranks for most mundanes too. And you know other than Spellcraft, the more useful skills are not Int based? Autohypnosis/Lucid Dreaming is Wis and UMD/UDP is Cha (yeahee!).

4. The racial notes almost made me skip you're entire post.
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Loredrake, and Dragonspawn are out. But hey let's talk about the Kalashtar! Little unfair. A Loredrake Steel Dragon is 100% cannon, and with Bestow Curse it's got the same casting progression as a Psion with a hell of a lot better rated 6HD. Dragon-Mag level material give it 9th level spells by ECL 6 as well. Dragonspawn GDRoP Kobolds can be used as well so long as they are not DWK, Feat taxed, but same progression and hell of a lot better racial abilities. Booting these things out to talk about how your shiny Kalashtar should totally be noted as a huge boon was a huge turn off.

5. Yes, Energy Ball does not equal Fireball.
Hate the Weather? Spellcasting can change that. Dislike the mountain? Spellcasting can do that. Want a personal Succubi? Spellcasting can do that. Want to reanimate a body as your personal slave despite it no longer having a soul? Spellcasting can do that. How about creating a castle over night or pop up mansions? Spellcasting can do that. It's a little hard to measure the difference between two things when one of them keeps changing reality as they see fit.

Spellcasting alters the world, Powers don't.


TL;DR: Spellcasting>Manifesting.

Offline Azrael

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Re: Psion and Sorcerer - Who gets the better deal?
« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2012, 04:14:55 PM »
even at int 12, you're character is smarter than you btw

Only if your IQ is less than 120  :D