Author Topic: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000  (Read 7368 times)

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« on: September 07, 2012, 11:26:41 AM »
We veteran optimizers know that the Tier system (proposed by JaronK and endlessly debated) may be flawed, but it's still a useful tool for gauging basic competency comparisons between base classes, especially for less-experienced optimizers.

Most optimization goals revolve around making characters as competent as possible at their chosen roles.  This challenge is to de-optimize a character.  There have been such challenges before, but this one is a little more specific:

Construct a 20-level valid build (i.e., meet all prerequisites), using the most updated base class tier list I could find along with the tier system for prcs that has the worst possible tier.

(I'm not saying highest or lowest because it's confusing.)

The final tier will be calculated thusly:
~First, perform a weighted average of all base class tiers, weighted by the number of levels of the class, to determine the base tier (B#).  For example, a Rogue 3/Commoner 2/Wizard 4 would be (4*3 + 6*2 + 1*4) / 9 = 3.1.
~Then, subtract any prc tiering adjustments from B# (so, a tier adjustment of -2 would make B# 3->5).

This isn't a perfect algorithm, so if anyone else has ideas for how to deal with multiclassing, I'm all ears.

Alright, go to it!

I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2012, 11:28:14 AM »
My prediction is that the winner will be a Magewright or Healer base.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2012, 11:34:49 AM »
I think Samurai Probably... there are a lot of crappy melee PRCs out there that it could qualify for. The way you have it set up at the moment though makes 1 level dips in PRCs more (less?) valuable as the adjustment only counts once...


The other issue is if you are trying to get the lowest score is that Wizard is 1 point and Samurai is 6. Thus Wizard 20 is 20 points and Samurai 20 is 120 which is the complete opposite of the aim of the contest probably best to invert the tiering on the PRCs and try for the highest score or invert the tier points and go for lowest.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 11:40:15 AM by littha »

Offline Halinn

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2067
  • My personal text is impersonal.
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2012, 12:01:37 PM »
Samurai 10 / Duelist 10. By the algorithm, that's tier 8.

Offline InnaBinder

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Onna table
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2012, 12:17:29 PM »
Goblin Divine Mind 10/Reaping Mauler 5/Dungeon Lord 5.  STR 12 DEX 12 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 10.  Boost CON with levels.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you're still retarded.

shugenja handbook; talk about it here

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 01:06:30 PM »
I think Samurai Probably... there are a lot of crappy melee PRCs out there that it could qualify for. The way you have it set up at the moment though makes 1 level dips in PRCs more (less?) valuable as the adjustment only counts once...


The other issue is if you are trying to get the lowest score is that Wizard is 1 point and Samurai is 6. Thus Wizard 20 is 20 points and Samurai 20 is 120 which is the complete opposite of the aim of the contest probably best to invert the tiering on the PRCs and try for the highest score or invert the tier points and go for lowest.

No, wizard 20 is tier 1 and samurai 20 is tier 6.

EDIT: Without looking at prereqs at all, a magewright/incarnate/acolyte of the skin/green star adept/necrocarnate would be something like tier 10.5.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 01:10:53 PM by sirpercival »
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 01:35:50 PM »
I think Samurai Probably... there are a lot of crappy melee PRCs out there that it could qualify for. The way you have it set up at the moment though makes 1 level dips in PRCs more (less?) valuable as the adjustment only counts once...


The other issue is if you are trying to get the lowest score is that Wizard is 1 point and Samurai is 6. Thus Wizard 20 is 20 points and Samurai 20 is 120 which is the complete opposite of the aim of the contest probably best to invert the tiering on the PRCs and try for the highest score or invert the tier points and go for lowest.


No, wizard 20 is tier 1 and samurai 20 is tier 6.

EDIT: Without looking at prereqs at all, a magewright/incarnate/acolyte of the skin/green star adept/necrocarnate would be something like tier 10.5.


It is just the way you have things worded. Its rather confusing

Offline SorO_Lost

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Banned
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 02:58:21 PM »
Why would a Magewight beat a chicken infested commoner?

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 03:04:44 PM »
Why would a Magewight beat a chicken infested commoner?

Harder to satisfy prereqs.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Halinn

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2067
  • My personal text is impersonal.
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 03:53:29 PM »
So basically the idea is to find class (ideally low tier, but whatever works to satisfy the most prereqs) and stack as many -1 and -2 prestige classes on that as possible?

Offline kitcik

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 04:07:34 PM »
The interesting thing will be to see how bad that build actually is. Let's say you start with a tier 5 class and stack on 4-5 (or maybe more) negative PrCs. That would be a ridiculously bad tier, but would it really be worse than going 20 in the tier 5 class by itself?

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2012, 04:13:48 PM »
So basically the idea is to find class (ideally low tier, but whatever works to satisfy the most prereqs) and stack as many -1 and -2 prestige classes on that as possible?
Yes indeed.

The interesting thing will be to see how bad that build actually is. Let's say you start with a tier 5 class and stack on 4-5 (or maybe more) negative PrCs. That would be a ridiculously bad tier, but would it really be worse than going 20 in the tier 5 class by itself?
Yeah, that will be interesting ;)
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2012, 04:16:35 PM »
I suggest that the Sandwich build(s)
or similar Useless builds don't count.

Instead you've actually gotta get to level 19
the hard way, to get to level 20 sometime.


InnaB beat me to a Divine Mind 10 / X 10 build ... soo ...
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Rebel7284

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 706
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2012, 04:19:07 PM »
Using the tier system to analyze this doesn't work... a wizard with 9 Int is weaker than a fighter...

Offline littha

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2952
  • +1 Holy Muffin
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2012, 04:25:09 PM »
On the prerequisites side a Gish can probably hit the most prerequisites for awful classes. That said most of the -2 PRCs are caster ones

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2012, 04:30:40 PM »
Remember the 504 Feats True Dilettante?
I figure you need a little bit of that to hit all the feat requirements.
So this mean you NEED Wanderer's Diplomacy feat
so you can find a Magic Mart that has DCFS available.

Apprentice level Commoner+Aristocrat
to get Chicken Infested and Mercantile.
Goes Commoner 1 / Aristocrat 1 at 2nd level.
That'll fund all the spell services with
both loop money and max real money.
Will take Vow Of Poverty to kill this advantage, maybe level 19.

Try to get 15 or more of these ... I doubt it though.
Catastrophic Tier prestige classes (-2)
(click to show/hide)
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 04:56:19 PM »
Using the tier system to analyze this doesn't work... a wizard with 9 Int is weaker than a fighter...

That's why this is a very specific challenge.  You can build worse chars than what I'm suggesting, sure.  Also, a Int 9 wizard doesn't qualify for many prcs...

I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline zook1shoe

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 4938
  • Feeling the Bern
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2012, 03:23:17 AM »
Remember the 504 Feats True Dilettante?

What's that?
add me on Steam- zook1shoe
- All Spells
- playground

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1962
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2012, 11:41:54 PM »
Remember the 504 Feats True Dilettante?

What's that?
That WoL abuse thread discussing proficiency abuse as well (Fighter // master of masks -> 2000 feats in their interpretation) that I obsoleted in the non-TO realm with with the PBMC Free Feat Diet.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: Minmax challenge: Tier 9000
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2012, 03:54:57 PM »
Free Feats thread over here, has the 504 link:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6248.0

googles/searches = Ahhh
More goodies I have to study (stupid clock on the wall , frown)
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=5rnn8rd1dgi0ub14noqs24h5f5&topic=7061.msg231177#msg231177
Your codpiece is a mimic.