[3.P] Summoner help?

[Kethrian]

I'm going to be making a summoner for Pathfinder, and I'm fairly new to the system.  There's no 3.5e stuff that can be brought in.

I'll be starting at level 6, 20-point build.  Planning on taking human or half-elf, leaning half-elf because I see they can get extra evolution points for their eidolon.

Is the Wild Summoner half-elf variant a good choice?

Is the Synthesist archetype any good?

Is biped or quadruped the better foundation for the eidolon?

[radionausea]

Wild Summoner Half-Elf Summoner ends up with the most evolution points (36 [.25 from half elf, .25 from the archetype]) so if you want to focus on your Eidolon (and why wouldn't you?) then that is a good way to go. 

Doesn't look like summoners get paragon surge which is sad

Loads of people bang on about synthesist but honestly, compared to a straight summoner it's a bag of balls. Action economy and all that. Plus your eidolon doesn't get to choose it's own feats.

Choice for quadruped or biped depends on whether you're going to focus on natural weapons or loads of arms wielding weapons. Quadruped can get pounce though...

[Halinn]

Bipeds get slightly more strength and a better will save, as well as a slight effective evolution point advantage (in the number of attacks). It also gets a 10 ft. reach from becoming large.
Quadrupeds can become mounts, and get the pounce evolution.

Personally, I lean towards pounce and the option for a flying mount, but the reach is quite good.
If you want to try the broken eidolon build (get arms and weapon training, breaking the max attack cap [since that's to natural attacks]), biped is the way to go.


The Wild Caller archetype is very good, since 1/2 level extra evolution points is amazing. I'd steer away from Synthesist, as there are a few clarity issues with it (mainly in healing the eidolon, and curing any ability score damage), and the gain isn't amazing over just having an eidolon normally (also, as mentioned, an action economy loss).

[altpersona]

i may have overlooked something, but the Summoner class seemed (to me) to be less summony than a regular caster focusing on summons.

[ChupacabraJohn]

Most of that stuff is a matter of preference.

Mathematically standard summoners are better then synthesists, mainly due to action economy, but I found that a well build synthesist can be pretty a pretty powerful melee tank easily outclass other melee focused party members. I played one a while ago where my AC was 10-15 higher then everyone in the group, I had more then twice the hit points of the next highest party member, and comparable to hit and damage (while limiting my natural attacks to a flat 2 claws). Clearly I stopped playing it because of the massive disparity in the group, but its not like I was playing with straight fighters, they were relativity optimized characters played by competent players.

The way I see it, a standard summoner has all the nice things that a synthesist has and an additional support caster built on, but that caster can be a liability as it is kinda squishy & doesn't have much means to defend itself.

[Kethrian]

Thanks for the replies!

Yeah, I was worrying about the action economy with synthesist, which is why I had to ask about it, in case there was something I was missing.

So the wild caller is a good choice then?  The loss of those evolutions won't hurt compared to the gain?  If so, I think quadruped is the way to go, since weapon training won't be available...

[Halinn]

So the wild caller is a good choice then?  The loss of those evolutions won't hurt compared to the gain?  If so, I think quadruped is the way to go, since weapon training won't be available...

The evolutions lost are generally not the most useful ones. The loss of magic attacks and extra energy damage to attacks is a damage loss, but the extra evolution points easily outshines that.
Your potential UMD also suffers slightly, since otherwise Skilled (UMD) would be a good choice for the Aspect class feature, but that is, again, quite minor, as flight is likely to be a superior option in any case.

[Sobolev]

Thanks for the replies!

Yeah, I was worrying about the action economy with synthesist, which is why I had to ask about it, in case there was something I was missing.

So the wild caller is a good choice then?  The loss of those evolutions won't hurt compared to the gain?  If so, I think quadruped is the way to go, since weapon training won't be available...

I've played Synthesist, the action economy is obviously worse, which is one of the main reasons to play Summoner, on top of the fact that you're constantly putting yourself in harms way.  If you want to put yourself in harms way, play a Charger and make your Eidolon your mount with pounce or something.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Mostly just agree with the others.  Pounce is awesome, Synthesist is good if you just want to make the fighter sad but regular summoner is stronger due to action economy.  Wild Caller is absolutely worth it.

For your summoner, look at the Eldritch Heritage feat line, you get Skill Focus as Half-Elf anyway.  Arcane bloodline gets you a familiar, which can later become an Improved Familiar that shares your UMD ranks.  Marid bloodline sucks initially, but at level 11, you get Imp. EH and pick up "Water's Fury" for an at-will standard action 60 ft line AoE that does some damage and blinds for 1d6 rounds, save halves damage and negates blindness.  Since you have spells for range, the familiar is probably more useful.  You can also get Evolved Familiar feat.

Eidolon...you want pounce and as many attacks (ie, Arms) as possible.  Claws, if not doing manufactured weapons, which is hella expensive.  Flight, improved damage, reach (on at least one attack, so you threaten further), the +2 natural armor, size bonuses, str bonus...all are great evolutions.  You can never have too many evo points.

[Kethrian]

I'll check those feat lines out!

I went with Wild Caller and quadruped, took Pounce, Gore, Claws, Improved Natural Armour x2, Ability Increase (str) x2, and Ability Increase (con).  I also figured, since I can't equip it with weapons, I could still give it Improved Unarmed Strike for extra attacks (1 now, more when its BAB reaches 6+).  Flight will be really useful once I can give it large size, but isn't nearly as useful right now.

Now I need to ask, how does Grab stack with the Improved Grapple chain?  Because that seems like a great path to focus on...

[Halinn]

For your summoner, look at the Eldritch Heritage feat line, you get Skill Focus as Half-Elf anyway.  Arcane bloodline gets you a familiar, which can later become an Improved Familiar that shares your UMD ranks.  ... You can also get Evolved Familiar feat.

Evolved Familiar is extra useful for Wild Callers, since you can give a familiar (but not yourself) Skilled (UMD) for a sizable bonus.

I went with Wild Caller and quadruped, took Pounce, Gore, Claws, Improved Natural Armour x2, Ability Increase (str) x2, and Ability Increase (con).  I also figured, since I can't equip it with weapons, I could still give it Improved Unarmed Strike for extra attacks (1 now, more when its BAB reaches 6+).  Flight will be really useful once I can give it large size, but isn't nearly as useful right now.

Now I need to ask, how does Grab stack with the Improved Grapple chain?  Because that seems like a great path to focus on...

I think that IUS would still be under the natural weapon attack cap, which I suggest sticking to in any case (as things quickly get overpowered without, and it's still very strong with).

An Eidolon is one of the best choices for a grappler.

[Kethrian]

Why would IUS be under natural attacks?  You get iterative attacks with it, don't you?  Natural weapons don't, plus the Improved Natural Attack feat explicitly excludes unarmed attacks.

[Halinn]

Ah, there's a specific exception to unarmed strikes being natural weapons in PF (on page 149, should you care).
Interestingly, page 58 has this:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

[Vicerious]

So a monk's unarmed strikes are both natural attacks and not natural attacks at the same time?

No wonder monks are overpowered: their fists exist in a quantum superstate! 

[Halinn]

Schrödinger's monk. He both hits you and doesn't hit you at the same time (although it's mostly not hitting, it still being a monk).

[Silent Wayfarer]

Is the master summoner (eidolon becomes crap, but you can crap out lots of monsters at once) worth it? Sounds like a nova-type deal.

[StreamOfTheSky]

With Master Summoner, Eidolon ceases to be a fighter-replacement, but is still VERY good as a skill monkey (Skilled evo) and wand/scroll-user with UMD.  And you can keep him out and have a summon out, so you end up with more coinage in the action economy.

That's why it's better.  I'd hesitate to call summoning, which you get 5 + cha mod per day (so...10/day...summoners really don't need much beyond cha and con) a "nova" ability.  If you ditch the eidolon, it certainly can become a nova option.  But it doesn't have to be to work well.  One summon SLA (which could be multiple creatures) at a time + wand eidolon + you casting spells is plenty of combat contribution.

[Silent Wayfarer]

One thing about Synthesist Summoner is that it reduces the number of things your opponents can target, and it directly improves your own survivability. So I figured it was the only other option worth a damn if you didn't want to play a Clown Car Master Summoner. Another argument against the Master Summoner is that it'll bog the game down. But in a good way.

[Halinn]

One thing about Synthesist Summoner is that it reduces the number of things your opponents can target, and it directly improves your own survivability. So I figured it was the only other option worth a damn if you didn't want to play a Clown Car Master Summoner. Another argument against the Master Summoner is that it'll bog the game down. But in a good way.

Basic Summoner remains a strong option. Wild Caller is probably the strongest available option, likely followed by the Master Summoner. Personally, I rank the Synthesist lower than the standard summoner, as you won't really be more effective on combat than an eidolon, and you'd have to use actions on buffs for yourself that the eidolon could have spent attacking.

[Silent Wayfarer]

I want to ask - why is Wild Caller stronger than the summon-spamming Master Summoner? Are the SNA spells really much better than Summon Monster? Don't the higher end of summoned monsters give you the ability to crap out SLA-toting outsiders?