Author Topic: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade  (Read 9352 times)

Offline Emparawr

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Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« on: September 11, 2012, 05:58:48 AM »
Ok so here is my issue. Basically I have already created my primary character for my campaign. He is a full blown Master of minds, named Horus Mentalus. He has such a strong distaste for engaging in physical combat that he doesnt even carry a weapon. He is however, theoretically, amazing at what he does and really bad at what he sucks at lol. His progression goes like this,

Psion Telepath 5 levels
Mindbender 1 level
Thrallherd 10 levels
Psion Telepath 4 Levels

Anyways I will post up his storyline and full breakdown for you guys to analyze and opinionize tomorrow morning because its 3am but for now I just want to get this post up. So anyways Horus will be starting out this campagin at level 5, and at level 7 Ill be getting a Thrall, who will be coming in at level 6. What I really wanted to build is a really good Psionic Melee character. Our group currently consists of my Master of Minds, a Standard dual wield rogue, a Blastey Wilder, and possibly an Evil Cleric. Point is right now other then the rogue we have no Melee at all. Also storyline wise I really like the idea of this Thrall being like Horus's destined guardian on his conquest of the world so I really like the idea of him being super strongly melee oriented but I also want him to be psionic so that I can use the psymbiot feat later on because I have a storyline bit involving it. I just love the idea that the bodyguard, other then also being Psionic, will be the complete opposite of Horus, big, melee oreinted, heavily armored, and dangerous. Also having access to some powers for protecting the group and/or just Horus, like Dispell Psionics, wouldnt hurt either, I know that one in particular though is Psion/Wilder only. I just really didnt want to use up a slot for it on Horus.

So I have some ideas but I have however, been finding it difficult to find some solid research on the topic. The soulblade sounded the most interesting fiction wise, but the light armor only prof doesnt really necessarily fit with the whole bad ass psionic melee bodyguard thing, but then Ardent isnt exactly necesssarily super melee focused even though it has access to heavy armor. The Psychic Warrior seems like it might be a bit on the simple side but who knows. I haven't thoroughly researched them all yet.

But as a noobie to this site, I send out this invite, a challenge if you will. I wish to build the most min maxed, without being broken in ways that are no fun, Psionic Melee Bodyguard build the world has every seen. I will take any ideas into account no matter how convoluted or insane they may be. I look forward to your responses and genuinely hope that this group may be the brainstormers/sounding board that I have been looking for :) Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 06:03:23 AM by Emparawr »
"WHEN THE DAY OF RECKONING COMES TO THIS WORLD YOU SHALL STAND BEFORE ME AND YOU SHALL BE JUDGED, AND ON THAT DAY KNOWN AS ARMAGEDDON YOU WILL KNOW FROM MY MIGHT THAT YOU ARE TRULY THE DAMNED"
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2012, 07:33:42 AM »
OK, first I would love to see your build, as I'm just starting a character with a similar theme, and secondly Ardents can make fantastic bodyguards due in large part to the Guardian mantle power and Damp Power. I have a several such builds lying around. Here are some links (listed oldest to newest, and probably simplest to most complicated):

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg130786#msg130786
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg216788#msg216788
second spoiler on this one: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg231132#msg231132

And if you decide to go completely insane with the Thrallherd stuff...
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=813.msg82635#msg82635
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=813.msg82639#msg82639
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 08:17:14 AM »
Is homebrew allowed?
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Offline McPoyo

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 08:43:02 AM »
I've used a build based somewhat on Phaedrus's Khas build as a mini-boss against my party once. Incredibly effective.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 09:37:33 AM »
I've used a build based somewhat on Phaedrus's Khas build as a mini-boss against my party once. Incredibly effective.
Glad someone got some use out of it. You probably played it more than I did, unfortunately.  :pout
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Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 01:17:37 PM »
If you're allowed to use the Substitute Powers and Dominant Ideal from: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a Ardent becomes ridiculous.

Offline Emparawr

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 04:02:51 PM »
Ok im gonna catch up on all this when I get back from the doctors but in the meanwhile heres is the post about Horus's breakdown. Enjoy.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7102.new#new
"WHEN THE DAY OF RECKONING COMES TO THIS WORLD YOU SHALL STAND BEFORE ME AND YOU SHALL BE JUDGED, AND ON THAT DAY KNOWN AS ARMAGEDDON YOU WILL KNOW FROM MY MIGHT THAT YOU ARE TRULY THE DAMNED"
- RON T. HUGHES -
aka EMPARAWR

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 07:55:37 PM »
(posted in the other thread first)
(so I missed the party rogue til now)

An el cheapo Ardent build is:
Human Ardent 2 / Bab +1 classA 2 / Bab +1 classB 2 / Ardent +1 / whatever

Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Emparawr

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 06:04:23 PM »
Ok so here is my latest idea for my first Thrall. Psychic warrior 5/War Mind 10/ Psychic Warrior 5.

Now before you say anything the only thing Im going to ask the dm to change on this is to allow me to use the Warriors Journey entry from the Pathfinder version of War Mind which actually makes it viable.

If the war mind previously had manifesting in the Psychic warrior class, instead of gaining the war mind’s exclusive psionic manifestation abilities, he can choose to instead increase his Psychic warrior manifesting level. If he does so, the war mind gains additional power points per day and access to new powers as if he had also gained a level in Psychic warrior. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus feats, improved trances and maneuvers, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of war mind to the level of Psychic warrior, then determines power points per day, powers known, and manifester level accordingly.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/war-mind

Also im going to take the Soulbound Weapon ACF because storyline wise its just bad fucking ass. Its even better then the whole reason I was originally considering a Soul Knife. Summoning up a weapon out of thing air to your hand that grows with you as you grow. I picture it looking like Soul Blade from the soul calibur games or something.

So this would give me the heavy armor options I wanted. It would also give me access to War Mind but would allow me to continue my full manifester level progression, and actually would end with 4 attacks for BAB albeit at 17/12/7/2 but still pretty nice, and War Minds abilities are fucking sweet.

So now what im trying to figure out is what his other feats should be

What race I should go with, I like the idea of it being something big and brawny so Ive been looking at Half Giant, Goliath, or Half Ogre despite the fact that the level adjustments would hurt although the DM might let me use the Unearthed Arcana rule to pay off the level adjustments in xp.

What weapon he should chose. Im thinking about going with some kind of a very large two handed weapon but im not sure. I guess I could grab something with some reach instead and just always try to keep foes at a distance. Not really sure. Need to do some more research on melee combat in dnd 3.5. IM primarily a 3.0 player and other then this recrent campaing havent had time to play in like two years damn near.


Anyways any kind of assistance or advice on this would be most helpful. Cant wait :)
"WHEN THE DAY OF RECKONING COMES TO THIS WORLD YOU SHALL STAND BEFORE ME AND YOU SHALL BE JUDGED, AND ON THAT DAY KNOWN AS ARMAGEDDON YOU WILL KNOW FROM MY MIGHT THAT YOU ARE TRULY THE DAMNED"
- RON T. HUGHES -
aka EMPARAWR

Offline Maat Mons

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 06:42:21 PM »
Some possible feats for a human psychic warrior 5 / warmind 1. 
  • Combat expertise
  • Combat reflexes
  • Deft opportunist: +4 bonus on attack rolls for attacks of opportunity, Complete Adventurer
  • Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain)
  • Improved trip
  • Jotunbrud: +4 on trip checks, Races of Faerun

This is only 6 of the 7 feats a human gets. 

Jotunbrud is a regional feat that requires being a human.  You could instead be a half-giant psychic warrior 5.  You'd have to drop jotunbrud, but powerful build would make up for it. 

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 08:06:41 PM »
Some possible feats for a human psychic warrior 5 / warmind 1. 
  • Combat expertise
  • Combat reflexes
  • Deft opportunist: +4 bonus on attack rolls for attacks of opportunity, Complete Adventurer
  • Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain)
  • Improved trip
  • Jotunbrud: +4 on trip checks, Races of Faerun

This is only 6 of the 7 feats a human gets. 

Jotunbrud is a regional feat that requires being a human.  You could instead be a half-giant psychic warrior 5.  You'd have to drop jotunbrud, but powerful build would make up for it.
Aside from tripping, how is this guy acting as a bodyguard?

No Share Pain. No Guardian Mantle to intercept blows. I think the ardent build I linked to earlier blows it out of the water, hard, as far as bodyguards go.

Isn't there a way for psiwarriors to pick up ardent mantles? If so, you might do that, but hell I'd still prefer to multiclass and just dip psiwarrior for the feats and a couple of class-specific powers. Ardent manifesting is just so much better.
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Offline brujon

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 08:50:29 PM »
Some possible feats for a human psychic warrior 5 / warmind 1. 
  • Combat expertise
  • Combat reflexes
  • Deft opportunist: +4 bonus on attack rolls for attacks of opportunity, Complete Adventurer
  • Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain)
  • Improved trip
  • Jotunbrud: +4 on trip checks, Races of Faerun

This is only 6 of the 7 feats a human gets. 

Jotunbrud is a regional feat that requires being a human.  You could instead be a half-giant psychic warrior 5.  You'd have to drop jotunbrud, but powerful build would make up for it.
Aside from tripping, how is this guy acting as a bodyguard?

No Share Pain. No Guardian Mantle to intercept blows. I think the ardent build I linked to earlier blows it out of the water, hard, as far as bodyguards go.

Isn't there a way for psiwarriors to pick up ardent mantles? If so, you might do that, but hell I'd still prefer to multiclass and just dip psiwarrior for the feats and a couple of class-specific powers. Ardent manifesting is just so much better.

Mantled Warrior ACF from the same set of articles on the WOTC website.

Really now, a more specific set of goals i think are in order to build a Thrall that will compliment you in every aspect that your character is lacking.

So we look at your character build and see that:

A) You don't get a quite high spike damage output.

B) Your character loses much of his versatility vs enemies that are either mindless or otherwise immune to mind-affecting.

C) Your character lacks quite a bit in the HP department, even with Share Pain.

Now, since this is an Evil game, i'm assuming we have to prepare to deal (eventually), with the other characters in the group. The rogue you can deal with easily, especially since you have mindsight so he can't really sneak up on you. The Wilder has a bit more protection vs your mind affecting shenanigans, but these can be circumvented easily enough. The cleric would be your main problem since he's a full caster. You have already said that you want your thrall to be psionic storywise, and melee oriented, also able to soak a good amount of damage.

Now, if we're talking polar opposites here, i think some barbarian/frenzied berserker would be in order. As you are focused on controlling as much of your mind as possible, the thralls power would come from relinquishing control of his mind to his instincts as much as possible. Some kind of beastly warrior... "The Dog of Horus". A psycarnum build including Psywar/Totemist/Barbarian/Totem Rager could be fun, fluff wise and damage wise.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 09:04:04 PM by brujon »
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 08:58:25 PM »
I think the ardent build I linked to earlier blows it out of the water, hard, as far as bodyguards go.

I was specifically responding to his latest post asking for feat and race ideas for a psychic warrior 5 / war mind 10 / psychic warrior 5.  I realize now that he said he wants the soulbound weapon alternative class feature, which replaces the second-level bonus feat, so that's one less feat than I figured. 

Offline Emparawr

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 10:59:18 PM »
Yeah I picture this Thrall and Horus as being characters whos destinies are intertwined. That he isnt just his perfect bodyguard, but that in the future during Horus's conquest of the world, he would be his chosen general, leader of his armies, his second in command. That despite the fact that he is Horus's thrall, his psychic puppet, that he is the only being in existence that Horus actually has any semblance of respect for, because although his ability can call any variety of beings to his cause, that does not mean that they are all usefull, wise, capable, knowledgeable or skilled. That despite the fact that it was his thrallherd call that brought the thrall to him, that they already had similar goals, that even before being called to Horus he longed to bring true order to the world, an order that would bring the world under its wing for the betterment of all, that some would welcome such a change but that others, others would need to be shown the way through force, or purged in order for a new world order to come into being. That he always longed for a cause, for someone to show him the way and give him real purpose. That even if it wasnt the Thrallherd Call that brought him to Horus, he would willingly have served his cause. That even without the psychic bond, he would have been a true believer.

As far as alignment goes im thinking neutral evil just like Horus. Even though he believes that in the end the True Order, will be for the betterment of all in existence, it does not change the fact that his, "The ends justify the means", attitude is still evil, and that just like Horus, he may not be chaotic because there is an order to his life, but he doesn't believe in working within the constraints of the laws of imperfect Mortal beings and will do whatever is necessary to further his lords goals, which are also his own.

So yeah, the idea that is by far the most appealing to me is Psychic Warrior 5/War Mind 10/Psychic Warrior 5.

At level 1 for his bonus feat he will take Weapon focus and for his power he will take Call Weaponry as his power, as is requirement for the Soulbound Weapon ACF. His second level bonus feat will be substituted out for the Soulbound weapons ACF.

As far as Race is concerned im going to go with Half-Giant for sure. Im thinking that maybe his family were merchants from the hill giants home city in the desert and thats what brought them to Tarbean (the city our campaign is set in).

So I still need to figure out the rest of his feats, what weapon he will take, im thinking something double handed, im going to check out that flail in a minute here. Since he is a Half-Giant he can use weapons that are one size class large then him so that will be good.

As far as skill go im going to try to find that entry that lets Psychic warriors switch out ride for tumble. For the war mind reqs ill have to dump some points into Knowledge psionics and Knowledge history but other then that its gonna be concentration, tumble, and autohypnosis, then maybe spread the rest of the points between jump, swim, climb etc.

So what do you guys think?

"WHEN THE DAY OF RECKONING COMES TO THIS WORLD YOU SHALL STAND BEFORE ME AND YOU SHALL BE JUDGED, AND ON THAT DAY KNOWN AS ARMAGEDDON YOU WILL KNOW FROM MY MIGHT THAT YOU ARE TRULY THE DAMNED"
- RON T. HUGHES -
aka EMPARAWR

Offline Emparawr

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 11:02:59 PM »
also I see your points on Ardent. Its just that my DM can be kind of a hard ass sometimes and im thinking that multiclassing to much would provoke him so im gonna try to keep it effective but not overly complicated so hell let me just have what I want instead of him just making new thralls and having me kill them every day till I get something I want or something stupid like that. The more reasonable it is the more likely it is to get approved.
"WHEN THE DAY OF RECKONING COMES TO THIS WORLD YOU SHALL STAND BEFORE ME AND YOU SHALL BE JUDGED, AND ON THAT DAY KNOWN AS ARMAGEDDON YOU WILL KNOW FROM MY MIGHT THAT YOU ARE TRULY THE DAMNED"
- RON T. HUGHES -
aka EMPARAWR

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2012, 12:15:45 AM »
Sure. The mantled warrior can get you the guardian ability, and Expanded Knowledge (or a custom mantle via Mantled Warrior) can get you Share Pain (or hell the Psion could manifest it). So you can get the important parts of the ardent character without actually taking levels of ardent, if you want.

Back a long time ago I made an arena character that was a berzerker psychic warrior that used Schism to manifest powers while raging. I'll see if I can dig that up. It might be something that interests you, from what you said in your descriptive post. That was several years ago, though, and I am not sure I can even find it now... and it had some quirks as it was built specifically for an arena. So YMMV.
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Offline Emparawr

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2012, 01:59:41 AM »
Hey can somebody explain the concept of Natural Reach, from the expansion power to me. Is this just like a weapon increasing your reach where you can attack two squares away but not one or does Natural Reach, mean that you can attack adjacent squares and two sqaures away? I cannot seem to find an answer about this anywhere.
"WHEN THE DAY OF RECKONING COMES TO THIS WORLD YOU SHALL STAND BEFORE ME AND YOU SHALL BE JUDGED, AND ON THAT DAY KNOWN AS ARMAGEDDON YOU WILL KNOW FROM MY MIGHT THAT YOU ARE TRULY THE DAMNED"
- RON T. HUGHES -
aka EMPARAWR

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2012, 02:08:32 AM »
Hey can somebody explain the concept of Natural Reach, from the expansion power to me. Is this just like a weapon increasing your reach where you can attack two squares away but not one or does Natural Reach, mean that you can attack adjacent squares and two sqaures away? I cannot seem to find an answer about this anywhere.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreaturesInCombat might help.

Offline Emparawr

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2012, 04:11:05 AM »
Sweet thanks for the help :) So I think im gonna start researching a build based around wielding double handed weapon, using expansion to get big to increase my strength and reach, and feats wise focusing on attacks of opportunity and just increasing overall damage. Hmmm so many possibilities.
"WHEN THE DAY OF RECKONING COMES TO THIS WORLD YOU SHALL STAND BEFORE ME AND YOU SHALL BE JUDGED, AND ON THAT DAY KNOWN AS ARMAGEDDON YOU WILL KNOW FROM MY MIGHT THAT YOU ARE TRULY THE DAMNED"
- RON T. HUGHES -
aka EMPARAWR

Offline Emparawr

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Re: Ardent vs Psychic Warrior vs Soulblade
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2012, 04:18:26 AM »
hmmm or maybe not. forgot for a moment that strength increase brings down dex which is necessary for combat reflexes. hmmmm
"WHEN THE DAY OF RECKONING COMES TO THIS WORLD YOU SHALL STAND BEFORE ME AND YOU SHALL BE JUDGED, AND ON THAT DAY KNOWN AS ARMAGEDDON YOU WILL KNOW FROM MY MIGHT THAT YOU ARE TRULY THE DAMNED"
- RON T. HUGHES -
aka EMPARAWR