General Discussion and Suggestions

[Anomander]

Spirits are not equal to the gap between a good robot and a bad one.

The mecha is already suffering from not benefiting from self buff class abilities and copying your stats. That in itself is already a big nerf.

...good combat stats, combat feats, better skills than the divine pilot, and maneuvers, which will probably be superior to spirits.

No. As I said, they get either the class abilities or the maneuvers. Not both.
The robot doesn't get both.

Either way, it should be fine. If it feels too strong it'll be adjusted. The maneuverless mecha + engineering support should be no greater than an infiltrator einst queen with drones under queen's will.

By the way, do you have a suggestion for the character to portray it? You're more familiar to those series than I am.

[oslecamo]

Spirits are not equal to the gap between a good robot and a bad one.

The mecha is already suffering from not benefiting from self buff class abilities and copying your stats. That in itself is already a big nerf.

No, it isn't, since it just means the engineer can dump their physical stats and their mecha still rocks at physical combat.

Independent stats just means you can specialize each of your two-for-one characters for one thing.

...good combat stats, combat feats, better skills than the divine pilot, and maneuvers, which will probably be superior to spirits.

No. As I said, they get either the class abilities or the maneuvers. Not both.
The robot doesn't get both.

The robot still gets independent actions and their own feats, which can all be specialized for combat.

Either way, it should be fine. If it feels too strong it'll be adjusted. The maneuverless mecha + engineering support should be no greater than an infiltrator einst queen with drones under queen's will.

Thing is, the einst queen can't benefit other party members, so she's just a force multiplier for her own minions. That's a lot easier to balance.

Which is the only way I could see your idea working without being a nightmare to balance. The engineer customizes his own weaker mechas, and gets suckers to pilot them, or cheap AIs, or whatever, but he can't modify other player's mechas, only his creations, and the other players have no reason to want to pilot the engineer's creations because they're weaker than their own machines.

By the way, do you have a suggestion for the character to portray it? You're more familiar to those series than I am.

Funny that you mention that. Closest things I can remember are...

 Tasuku.

He wanted to be a pilot, but in the physical tests proved both a weakling and clumsy, so they put him on grunt mechanic duty instead. Then in a battle he took a mecha that nobody was using and saved the day.


And  Ryoto

While Tasuku had a fighting spirit but sucked physically, Ryoto  was quite capable but just not much into the whole killing thingy, so he ended up becoming the in-field engineer that now and then pilots a mecha when things get desesperate enough.

[Anomander]

No, it isn't, since it just means the engineer can dump their physical stats and their mecha still rocks at physical combat.

Only if there isn't an actual competent pilot piloting it.
Which means that if a commoner is doing the piloting, a single critical hit will make the mecha pilotless.
If the engineer is piloting it, then its non-combat stuff won't be of much use since either they overrule the mecha's combat ability or it doesn't benefit from other class abilities. Which is a very significant minus considering you intend those mecha classes to mostly be used in gestalt.
If someone else pilots it, then whatever combat feats and skills are built into the mecha become meaningless as well.

Thanks for the suggestions!

I don't mind going for self-only boostage (even though some maneuvers in many disciplines can provide benefits to allies, or more like Ships Full of Hope), but it would seem awkward thematically.
The way I had planned for it to work is that the engineer would have to be within the mecha it works on without piloting it. Which makes it impossible for multi-mecha boosts. Only one at a time and to even begin work on someone else's machine he has to spend actions reaching it, getting inside and leaving it when he's done to attend to another.

[oslecamo]

I see that your new class is actually a repaint job of your previously crazily OP class. Heck, you didn't even bother to properly replace the names in several instances! Arguably even more OP now because it now also gets cheap spammable minions. And the prototype gets extra HP and energy over a regular real robot before anything else. That you kept claiming "Trust me, totally balanced by the mecha engineer having bad Bab", and then the self-controling OP mecha gets full Bab anyway, well, that's the cherry on top.

I had a glimmer of hope for this. It was completely crushed. Not gonna bother visit that thread again for a year.

[Anomander]

Cheap spammable minions? It was intended to be nothing better than uncontrolled einst drones.

I did some maths and I don't see how it could get a clearly better HP/Energy than a normal real robot.

The low bab was never meant to balance it. It applies only when it isn't piloting the mecha to avoid multiple super warriors at a time, like the Einst Queen. The self(kid) controlled mecha is about as good as a the controlled einst drones and about as vulnerable to crits.

I think it is much weaker than you think and you're exagerating. If I made mistakes in my calculations I'm sure it can be quickly fixed.

You had invited me to make a Engineering system here and so I did. Obviously I took the revamped version I made for the other one and adjusted it since you wanted to have something that could be available to the other classes.

[Anomander]

I reviewed it again just to makes sure and I am pretty confident it is weaker in power than the Einst Queen and the Super Pilot. If anything those two classes should maybe be nerfed.

Its HP potential is weaker than a super pilot and, since unlike the other classes it doesn't get by default an ability that has the potential to fully heal the mecha (or all einst drones) every 2-3 rounds with a free action, it might in fact be proper to give it a higher max hp potential.

The ability to make a bunch of suits isn't that impressive since it is time consuming, can properly be done only at specific places unlike a einst queen and a similar result could be done better and more cheaply by just hiring mercenaries since they would actually follow orders and come with their own mecha.

And its kid-piloted mecha prototype isn't OP. I don't see how it could be better than 3+ controlled einst drones or a super pilot.

[Raineh Daze]

From the above post I can only conclude you actually want Guts nerfed, not Super Pilot.

Or, from earlier stuff, Sentient rather than a blanket nerf. <_<

[Anomander]

Not really the point. I'm only adding that things like free heals, such as uber regeneration, guts and trust, is (maybe) calculated in determining what HP is enough for a mecha. The engineer doesn't have free heals per round so even if the mecha's hp was a bit higher than the norm (and it really isn't), it might actually be alright.

I'm talking about the Queen Eisnt and Super Pilot package as a whole. But nerfing them and how that should be handled isn't the subject. Just feel that saying that the Mecha Engineer is crazy OP is really disturbing compared to whats offered over there. It can do some nice stuff, sure, but when it comes to raw power a Spirit user will be on top.

[oslecamo]

Perhaps I've should've clarified something. In SRW everybody that matters get spirits. Supers, reals, your mom, alien monstruosities from outer space, ancien awaken gods, if they have an unique name, they have spirits. Only nameless faceless mooks meant to die in droves don't get spirits. Making a class other than "mecha cannon fodder" without spirits, and using that as an excuse to fit in other dubious stuff while claiming "It's balanced because it doesn't have spirits!", is not a valid character class option for here as far as I'm concerned. You balance spirits by giving spirits in some form to everybody.

[Anomander]

Ah, that's good to know!

"It's balanced because it doesn't have spirits!"

The class is balanced by much more than the lack of spirits. That detail only makes it a lot less easy to abuse.

But okay, that's even better. I can instead convert this engineering system into a Spirit based one by switching the acquisition of Integrated Technology with a Spirit feature, make feats that allow you to spend spirits to get the engineering options and make spirits with the [Mecha Engineer] tag. It'll make it easier for other pilots to dabble in engineering. Sounds good.

[oslecamo]

Just for the love of Judecca don't make it tied to yet another custom resource...

[Anomander]

Like the Super Pilot's upgrades or the einst queen's nutrients? Didn't plan to.

[Raineh Daze]

Yours tend to get overcomplicated.

[Anomander]

There's a few Spirits I think could perhaps get implemented.
Not sure if Morale should be a thing since you already replaced it for static values for a few feats so I think I'll just translate it for now as a bonus to attack, damage, DR and move speed.
I'm using an average of their costs in one of the games though it often feels too high for what it grants. They could be something along the lines of:

Surveillance (1) : You scout an target that you haven't attacked or been attacked by for the past minute. You learn its statistics.

Charge (30) : One ally in sight gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, DR and a +5-mu bonus to its speeds.

Resupply (48 or 50) : You, along with one ally in sight, recover all your energy and all your weapon ammo.

Vigor (50) : One ally in sight gains a +6 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, DR and a +30-mu bonus to its speeds.

Rally (65) : All adjacent units get a +2 bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, DR and a +5-mu bonus to their speeds.

Hope (70) : You and one ally that you can see recover 50 spirit points.

[oslecamo]

Surveillance Scan is one of those effects that's really weak in SRW, but would be pure gold in a D&D game. The main reason being that in SRW you automatically learn all of the enemy statistics after a single round of combat against them. However in D&D that kind of effect demands multiple Knowledge checks and learning the exact statistics is pretty much impossible by default.

Charge seems good, although I can't remember it from any particular SRW game.

Ressupply would be probably be strong enough if it affected a single target, even if it costs 50 SP. Judecca knows how much I love it late game to keep the high-energy ultimate attacks going. And from what I've seen so far in our campaign, energy is indeed the main limiter of many powerful abilities, so ways to easily recharge them like that should be limited.

Vigor is over 3x as good as charge for less than double the cost? Why would anyone take charge then? Oh, wait, I think I recognize them now, they're the morale-boosting spirits. Kinda plain implementation from your side, but I guess they fill a niche that was empty. Needs more Excellen either way.

Taunt (40): Target enemy in sight takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls, damage rolls, DR and a -5 mu penalty to speed.


Hope plains allows for a loophole if two players take it. One guy spends 70 sp, recovers 50 and another guy recovers 50. Net loss 20 SP for yourself, but then the other guy uses this too, and you gain 30 SP while the other guy still has 20 leftover from where he began as well.

[Anomander]

I found them in Super Robot Wars Original Generation. Maybe I should scout other games for other potential spirits.

For Surveillance/Scan, that makes a lot of sense and explains well its low SP cost. It doesn't translate into Dnd at all since you can get knowledge results off seeing enemies without having to fight them anyway.

For Resupply, I'd compare with hit points. Regeneration of hp vs reactors for energy are at equal strength, though reactor is more available. Guts is 30 SP and Faith is 40 SP. Also, you don't die from having zero energy but you do if your hp drops to zero so hp so the value of energy vs hp feels difficult to assess.
I agree that it is a good limiter for powerful abilities but usually the greatest limiter of power is action-economy.
Zeal is 70 SP for a lot of extra power, so how much would an energy equivalent of Guts/Faith be?

Charge/Vigor Morale spirits: Yep. As I mentioned you already replaced Morale for some feats so I'm not sure about bringing a Morale system over this without the feats having to be done over.

Good one for Taunt/Exhaust!

I was also considering adding Mercy (10), which leaves an enemy close to death when it should die. For Dnd though perhaps it would translate better to dealing nonlethal damage or otherwise leaving a mecha disabled but not destroyed.

Also considering:
Direct Attack (30) : Your next attack, if it hits, passes through
whatever defenses the opponent has, including Support Defenses and
any sort of barrier. It hits the enemy directly.

As for Hope, that's exactly what it did in the game. Was that spirit regeneration loop a thing or was it just not worth it considering who had access to it?
I though I'd just reduce the cost to 20 since you the net loss was 20 but I figured that the mechanics requiring 70 SP to even do it was meant to force you to keep a high spirit count to be able to do it along with preventing you to do it too early. Otherwise putting a cooldown of 5 minutes (time it usually takes to recover spirits anyway) or less per use per target would prevent the loop. That or diminishing returns each use.
After hearing two great speeches about friendship and believing in yourself or whatever within the same episode/fight your spirits aren't as lifted after all.

Otherwise I'm also thinking that perhaps more spirits should progress by pilot level, like Trust and Refresh. Especially those giving static bonuses.

[oslecamo]

For Resupply, I'd compare with hit points. Regeneration of hp vs reactors for energy are at equal strength, though reactor is more available. Guts is 30 SP and Faith is 40 SP. Also, you don't die from having zero energy but you do if your hp drops to zero so hp so the value of energy vs hp feels difficult to assess.
I agree that it is a good limiter for powerful abilities but usually the greatest limiter of power is action-economy.
Zeal is 70 SP for a lot of extra power, so how much would an energy equivalent of Guts/Faith be?

Thing is that you want your energy-recovering spirit to restore two mechas's supply. That's not how it worked on the game, not how the other spirits here work, and just restoring energy would be good.

Also trivia, I had considered making it myself when making the first spirit list, but then decided it would be a bit silly somehow willing somebody else's weapon to have more bullets, but after watching knights of Sidonia I guess I can go with "improvise something else as ammo".

Charge/Vigor Morale spirits: Yep. As I mentioned you already replaced Morale for some feats so I'm not sure about bringing a Morale system over this without the feats having to be done over.

Yeah, between mechas and spirits I believed there were already more than enough subsystems for this.

Good one for Taunt/Exhaust!

There's a reason why I have this avatar, you know?

I was also considering adding Mercy (10), which leaves an enemy close to death when it should die. For Dnd though perhaps it would translate better to dealing nonlethal damage or otherwise leaving a mecha disabled but not destroyed.

Fine,  go ahead and make your defeat without destruction spirit.

More trivia, Mercy in the SRW games is more of a situational ability since there's at least always one mission where you need to reduce your target's HP to critical without killing them (usually because they have nukes, or are nukes, and killing them would mean everybody died).

Also considering:
Direct Attack (30) : Your next attack, if it hits, passes through
whatever defenses the opponent has, including Support Defenses and
any sort of barrier. It hits the enemy directly.

Would probably work better if you specified more, like "ignores defensive abilities with Barrier/Shield/Whatever on its name."

As for Hope, that's exactly what it did in the game. Was that spirit regeneration loop a thing or was it just not worth it considering who had access to it?

O'rrly?  Lefina has something to say about that. Hope only recovered one ally's worth of SP. There's no two-target spirits in any SWR as far as I'm aware.

There was a possible loophole with another character that had Hope for just  50 SP, so if you got her the spirit-reduction "feat", she would become an infinite spirit battery. However you only unlocked said character very late in the game, thus you would need to grind multiple Newgame+ to get it done.

Otherwise I'm also thinking that perhaps more spirits should progress by pilot level, like Trust and Refresh. Especially those giving static bonuses.

Trust and Refresh are special because healing effects are rare. However pilots are getting boosts to movement and hit/AC and damage from plenty of other sources, so the spirits that boost those don't need it if you ask me.

[Anomander]

Thing is that you want your energy-recovering spirit to restore two mechas's supply. That's not how it worked on the game, not how the other spirits here work, and just restoring energy would be good.

From the Spirit list I read on that game, it works exactly as I listed it.
Looking at other lists, it seems to work for only one ally instead in most of the games. For how it works, I imagine its about the same way their spirit repairs that big hole through a mecha's chest.

Yeah, between mechas and spirits I believed there were already more than enough subsystems for this.

Ha ha. Oh yes. Well agreed! Though... you know me; It is never too complicated to be playable. Dnd already has hundreds of subsystems without even counting homebrews so as far as I'm concerned its a big whatever.

More trivia, Mercy in the SRW games is more of a situational ability since there's at least always one mission where you need to reduce your target's HP to critical without killing them (usually because they have nukes, or are nukes, and killing them would mean everybody died).

Ah, neat. I read it as more of a training spirit. Put an enemy to its knees so that weak ally of yours can be the one to finish it off and catch up with the big boys. In this campaign setting, this could actually be used to help promote mecha mooks.

Would probably work better if you specified more, like "ignores defensive abilities with Barrier/Shield/Whatever on its name."

Wouldn't that be too much too specify? Anything that reduces the damage received (DR, Defend, G-Wall and so on) being ignored seems clear enough. Unless that spirit was meant to only ignore actual barriers but not other sources such as the spirit that reduces damage.

O'rrly?  Lefina has something to say about that. Hope only recovered one ally's worth of SP. There's no two-target spirits in any SWR as far as I'm aware.

No problem then! As I said, I picked those from Super Robot Taisen: Original Generation. Your video is from the second one.
But hey, I'm cool with it.


Otherwise, I'd rather not make them myself since there is already a thread for Spirits. If you're okay with some of these propositions feel free to add them in and give them whichever pilot class you think would work best for them. They're just suggestions after all.


Edit: Oh. Found many lists and there are so many. There's even Twin spirits (though in some games some of those seem to be usable alone).

(click to show/hide)

Prayer  - removes a bad status effect.
Assault  - can use weapon after moving (double move + attack or move + heavy weapon attack?)
Fortitude/Invincibility - then attack that hits deals 10 damage
Bonds (twin spirit) - all allies recover 50% HP
Huge Encouragement (twin spirit) - all allies get +5 morale/equivalent
Confusion (twin spirit) - all enemies have lower accuracy for 1 round.
Violent Assault (twin spirit) - both users get Accel, Assault, and Direct Hit/Fury.
Continuous Attack (twin spirit) - can act again if the next attack destroys the target.
Alignment (twin spirit) - Sets the stats of both users to their best value for the rest of the encounter. Way too OP.
Fighting Spirit (twin spirit) - Users get 100% crit chance on all attacks for 1 round. Wait. Wat.
Belief (twin spirit) - User's squad takes 1/4th damage and is immune to status effects for 1 round.
Courage/Bravery - Accel, Strike, Invincible, Valor, Spirit, Fury
Revival  - Revive a destroyed ally as if he was just deployed into battle. So strong...
Miracle - HP is completely restored. It than has the effects of Accel, Alert, Strike,
 Luck, and Valor+ cast. +30 Morale.
Sacrifice - Causes the user's next attack to deal 300% damage and makes it a guaranteed Critical Hit. However, the user cannot dodge any attacks for the rest of the turn (except if the user had previously used Alert). O_OP
Substitute - Take damage instead of target next time it receives any.
Provoke - Enemy's next attack must target the user.
Aid - 30 SP to give one ally 10 SP.
Cloak - Enemies can't attack the user for 1 round. Woah.
Dream - Use any Spirit an ally can use at double cost.

[Michael Lightning]

With the twin spirits, those come in on the PS2 rerelease of the OG games as OGs or Original Generations and 2nd OGs on the PS3. The thing about them was that each pilot had 1 'twin' spirit that was only available to be used while they were in a twin unit with one another. All of them only worked while they were in a twin unit together, so using the spirit then separating the twining out doesn't work that way. I don't think that we need a subsystem like the Twin system in this when there's other things that can probably be put in first, especially since there's MP mechs and other abilities that are much more interesting from the Japan-only crossover games.

-edit- oh, and Assault is very rarely (if ever) a Twin command. It tends to be on some mid-speed mechs whose more powerful attacks aren't post-movement (looking at you, Kyosuke!)

[oslecamo]

Yeah, the original OG 1 didn't have twin system either, the fancy PS remake was the one who added them along a bunch of quircky mechanics (and then was never released in english for the evulz).

Will see to adding more spirits over Christmas vacations, but twin whatever will remain in the backburner.

Also Assault already was one of the first spirits I converted here... Fighting Spirit is already there as Warrior Spirit, and Confusion as Disturbance. You can blame those last two in different translations.

EDIT: I had the idea of making the morale-boosting spirits providing better bonus if you have the morale feats.