Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 247143 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #600 on: February 22, 2017, 12:20:10 AM »
Ahh but I'd love mouseover text :(

Srsly, right click and open new tab on this and paste the following into the left box and hit run.
Code: [Select]
<!DOCTYPE html><html><head></head><body>
Plasma Sword (I), melee, +3, 1d12(S), -, 5, 19-20x2, 8, (<i><a title="Ignores 1/2 natural, armor, and shield bonuses to AC">Power</a></i>, <i><a title="Uses your dex to attack rolls">Finesse</a></i>)
</body></html>
Then mouse over the italic text on the right, you can pretty much use w/e you want to identify it as displaying things on mouseover such as coloring it blue or something. You can paste all kinds of quick reminders for such complicated homebrew trivializing the learning curve without altering the presentation or forcing people to flip back and forth through multiple pages.

*flexes fingers*
(click to show/hide)
Try doing the same with that and click on the I/II/III/IV. Obviously I didn't actually convert the tables but theoretically you can shrink the entire Arsenal down to about a dozen lines in a box that you could literately shove to the right hand side of the screen. Why even bother with separate tab for Real/Super Robots or their Upgrades/ & Arsenal when you can display them together?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 12:50:21 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #601 on: February 22, 2017, 02:41:41 AM »
Ahh but I'd love mouseover text :(

Srsly, right click and open new tab on this and paste the following into the left box and hit run.
Code: [Select]
<!DOCTYPE html><html><head></head><body>
Plasma Sword (I), melee, +3, 1d12(S), -, 5, 19-20x2, 8, (<i><a title="Ignores 1/2 natural, armor, and shield bonuses to AC">Power</a></i>, <i><a title="Uses your dex to attack rolls">Finesse</a></i>)
</body></html>
Then mouse over the italic text on the right, you can pretty much use w/e you want to identify it as displaying things on mouseover such as coloring it blue or something. You can paste all kinds of quick reminders for such complicated homebrew trivializing the learning curve without altering the presentation or forcing people to flip back and forth through multiple pages.

*flexes fingers*
(click to show/hide)
Try doing the same with that and click on the I/II/III/IV. Obviously I didn't actually convert the tables but theoretically you can shrink the entire Arsenal down to about a dozen lines in a box that you could literately shove to the right hand side of the screen. Why even bother with separate tab for Real/Super Robots or their Upgrades/ & Arsenal when you can display them together?

Ah, but this can be done in wikia as well!

First page is done, here.

There's mouseover on weapon properties, which is a template that can be applied anywhere and will be the same everywhere.

It'll be a bit to get all the pages ready, but we'll get it done!

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #602 on: February 22, 2017, 07:30:39 AM »
Neat!

About the Android's integrated weapon. To be sure this is read correctly. Is the regular one channeled through the mecha with the higher versions not being channeled when you take that option or are they all not channeling through the mecha?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #603 on: February 22, 2017, 07:50:29 AM »
First page is done, here.

There's mouseover on weapon properties, which is a template that can be applied anywhere and will be the same everywhere.

It'll be a bit to get all the pages ready, but we'll get it done!

Great job start!  :clap

Neat!

About the Android's integrated weapon. To be sure this is read correctly. Is the regular one channeled through the mecha with the higher versions not being channeled when you take that option or are they all not channeling through the mecha?

The weapon can never integrated into the weapon, regardless of which one you choose.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #604 on: February 22, 2017, 10:36:04 AM »
Ah, but this can be done in wikia as well!
Friggin sweet. :D

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #605 on: February 25, 2017, 04:18:56 PM »
Quote
A multiclass Ship Captain/Super Pilot applies Super Robot upgrades to the battleship. Count only Super Pilot levels for determining which upgrades are available. The battleship automatically gains the "Transform" mecha property for free, allowing it to turn into a massive humanoid of the battleship's size as a swift action. In humanoid form, its natural armor is reduced by 2, its battleship flight speed is traded for the 30 mu base speed of a Super Robot, and it gains the two in-built melee weapons a base Super Robot would obtain. In this form, the Battleship can perform trips and grapples, but becomes vulnerable to them as well. If either the growth or miniaturization upgrades are taken, the character can choose for one of its transformed forms to have one of its previous sizes.
Quote
Size: huge by default. A captain may choose to start with a bigger battleship up to colossal size, but this won't grant any mechanical benefit besides [...]
Something that bugs me a bit with this is that a Ship Captain 1/Super Pilot 1 instantly gets a huge humanoid mecha at second level, which is normally only accessible at super pilot level 8. The humanoid mecha would be huge by default.
Ship Captain 1/Super Pilot 8 would be colossal. No sure giving such an early access to bigger mechas is a good idea. The ship being huge from the get go is sort of okay since its ship mecha weapons have their own damage progression anyway and none of them are melee.

Quote
Machinery Warrior ;You Cannot Stop Me: At 3rd level 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior is mecha is dropped below half HP, he may use a Spirit he knows as a free action.
How does this work, exactly? It seems to be meant to allow the use of a spirit outside of turn, but a free action can only be done during one's own turn. The spirit seems meant to take effect after the damage is received rather than before, as well.

Quote
Machinery Weapons: At first level pick two weapons from the Mecha chosen for Machine Cells. The Machinery Warrior gains an enanchment bonus on attack and damage rolls with those two weapons equal to his Machinery Warrior level, up to +10.
Your games usually go with the rule that enhancement bonuses to weapons are accompanied by special weapon abilities of an equal enhancement bonus value, but I do not think it is meant to apply this time.

Absolute Barrier: Good nerfs. I read it again I can tell you right now that the chosen vulnerability will almost always be missiles. If only because there aren't all that many arsenal missile weapons and that most options are on real robots built-ins and I think all of them are ranged, unlike the beam weapons. Might as well make it vulnerable to both since missile weapons are so limited anyway.
Also, were the arsenal options meant to have (melee?) anti-barriers? The function could also be added to another accessory, such as the +X insight to attacks accessories or as a radar option.

Photon Radar(V)
Its first two options still inflict penalties.

Quote
Lightwave Barrier (II)-Weapons without missile on their names or without deal only half [...]
Maybe the missing part is meant to be "Beam in their name". In which case it could be "All weapons except beam or missile weapons deal only half..."
Also, there is already Beam Coat at that arsenal level, in case you meant there to be only one barrier option per arsenal level.


Quote
Do you even sci-fi? Many people out there consider that getting a clone to carry your will is as good as immortality.
Cloning Gambit Expendable Clone
Aye, kind of in the same way people can think that doing an amazing deed will make them immortal by being remembered forever... which is pretty darn silly. Your name/deed/work may last for quite a while (all things come to an ultimate end in time anyway) but their own lives certainly do not last any longer. And when you're dead you no longer care. Usually this is mostly done in the way you leave a child behind to carry on your legacy, though with extra vanity as the child is exactly like you. Or more effectively by having their own mind transferred to the clone, getting rid of the clone's own sense of Self. Otherwise you indeed just die and someone else that is like you, but not you, goes on. Since all clones aren't mind-linked in some way that does not apply, however.
If you send a clone to adventure somewhere, the XP it gains are technically not shared with the one hidden at the base (I suppose since each clone have the same XP upon creation they can also leave a clone to spend XP on spells/item crafting, then be dismissed so that it doesn't affect the XP of the one to become the original. Might want to prevent that kind of stuff). Whatever it learns is not learned by the one hiding away unless they have a way to communicate. If the clone dies, the new original will know since his stats increase but would have to recover the copy's mecha's blackbox to check what happened. Assuming the wreck of the mecha copy does not disappear as well and so leave no blackbox, which is likely the case. Otherwise you can also dismiss their corpse/mecha wreckage, I suppose, unless destroyed/kill copies are instantly treated as dismissed. That isn't clear.
Great job limiting the abuse of the ability so far. It still has incredible potential through the multiplication of class abilities but its power has to lie somewhere.

Sentient Support: The supporting still has the robot spend an immediate action to provide bonuses to the one currently piloting the robot... but he cannot spend actions while being piloted since it only gets actions while the pilot is out of it, which means that upgrade needs tricks to apply, such as piloting the robot while outside of like through Innovade.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:50:03 AM by Anomander »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #606 on: February 27, 2017, 12:48:10 PM »
Absolute Barrier: God nerfs. I read it again I can tell you right now that the chosen vulnerability will almost always be missiles. If only because there aren't all that many arsenal missile weapons and that most options are on real robots built-ins and I think all of them are ranged, unlike the beam weapons.
Yeah but for 1 Hard Point / Hyperdimensional Storage you can just pick up Beam Coat which isn't some kind of "wall". Then end outcome can be your defense arrays prevents 20% damage at the cost of energy but is weak against beams because only it prevents 50% damage for free.

It also has a problem of being worse than a Wizard vs Sorcerer debate. At a few key levels, since you always generate energy at the start of your turn, you always ignore your opponent's barrier. In reverse, say the BBEG is one level higher, it becomes a nearly unwinnable fight as you have you deal with his reduction and he ignores yours unless you expressly use one of the many nova options I've talked about for glass cannon nuking because fights should be over in 1/10 someone's turn I guess.

It's Free Action immunity is also is massively abusive. I'd call out Fireball but I'm sick of the totally fucking retarded bullshit comments that go with it, so pick any area effect that doesn't use an attack roll in any of his poorly written grotesquely more powerful than WotC's homebrew for example and use that instead. It's not an attack and so it doesn't cost energy and if it falls into one of the things it's basically ignored for free. It doesn't even scale with his Alien Alloy Upgrade. Spend one point for Resist 10 in one element that can never be changed vs the Barrier's "tertiary effect of another upgrade gives 100% protection with a free action to change to any element, and more, as you like."

Zero State is getting better. Nope, still can't say that with a straight face but I tried. Zero State is punishing casters even more now but feel free to invent yet another broken Arsenal attack option. Like Linked Anti-Ship Swords for 3,925/rnd @lv12/30Str, it's so much damage you should just look into switching a bunch of them out to debuff the crap out of your opponent first using grenades & keywords like Pinning & Concussive. And Martial Adepts, err correction WotC's Martial Adepts are screwed in the rear but not Osl's Classes, Real/Super Pilots can still simply reenter their Stances and since they bypass Ready they can still use their Maneuvers when they don't use Circuit. Given Soul Melders and Binders are not limited in anyway either there is certainly some nich optimization in there for them too.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 04:15:42 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #607 on: February 28, 2017, 07:43:03 AM »
Scientist Support path mostly done, just need the super weapons.

Quote
A multiclass Ship Captain/Super Pilot applies Super Robot upgrades to the battleship. Count only Super Pilot levels for determining which upgrades are available. The battleship automatically gains the "Transform" mecha property for free, allowing it to turn into a massive humanoid of the battleship's size as a swift action. In humanoid form, its natural armor is reduced by 2, its battleship flight speed is traded for the 30 mu base speed of a Super Robot, and it gains the two in-built melee weapons a base Super Robot would obtain. In this form, the Battleship can perform trips and grapples, but becomes vulnerable to them as well. If either the growth or miniaturization upgrades are taken, the character can choose for one of its transformed forms to have one of its previous sizes.
Quote
Size: huge by default. A captain may choose to start with a bigger battleship up to colossal size, but this won't grant any mechanical benefit besides [...]
Something that bugs me a bit with this is that a Ship Captain 1/Super Pilot 1 instantly gets a huge humanoid mecha at second level, which is normally only accessible at super pilot level 8. The humanoid mecha would be huge by default.
Ship Captain 1/Super Pilot 8 would be colossal. No sure giving such an early access to bigger mechas is a good idea. The ship being huge from the get go is sort of okay since its ship mecha weapons have their own damage progression anyway and none of them are melee.
Something that you seem to be missing is that a battleship has the Cubersome penalty that leaves you flat-footed against adjacent opponents and they also automatically threaten crits against it. And so does a multiclass Ship Captain/Super Robot. Yes, it can get bigger size faster, but remains highly vulnerable to high crit weapons when they get close and personal.

Quote
Machinery Warrior ;You Cannot Stop Me: At 3rd level 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior is mecha is dropped below half HP, he may use a Spirit he knows as a free action.
How does this work, exactly? It seems to be meant to allow the use of a spirit outside of turn, but a free action can only be done during one's own turn. The spirit seems meant to take effect after the damage is received rather than before, as well.
Added clause that it can use outside of turn. However the spirit's effect happening after the damage is resolved is intended.

No, I'll never forget Alpha Gaiden's "take me down in one shot or I'll Guts and Wall and Strike" bosses.

Quote
Machinery Weapons: At first level pick two weapons from the Mecha chosen for Machine Cells. The Machinery Warrior gains an enanchment bonus on attack and damage rolls with those two weapons equal to his Machinery Warrior level, up to +10.
Your games usually go with the rule that enhancement bonuses to weapons are accompanied by special weapon abilities of an equal enhancement bonus value, but I do not think it is meant to apply this time.
No, and that's why it isn't mentioned. Just raw numeric bonuses.


Absolute Barrier: Good nerfs. I read it again I can tell you right now that the chosen vulnerability will almost always be missiles. If only because there aren't all that many arsenal missile weapons and that most options are on real robots built-ins and I think all of them are ranged, unlike the beam weapons.  Might as well make it vulnerable to both since missile weapons are so limited anyway.
Added a couple of missile options to every Arsenal tier. Deal a bit more base damage than even the volatile weapons, but low ammo, take high space, and none have the power or rending properties.

Later gonna add bio-missiles to the Einst Queen, already added bio-beams.

Also, were the arsenal options meant to have (melee?) anti-barriers? The function could also be added to another accessory, such as the +X insight to attacks accessories or as a radar option.
Ah, what the heck, just added a level I acessory for it. Yes, it'll work on even a fullpower Absolute Barrier, but it's still taking an Arsenal slot.

Photon Radar(V)
Its first two options still inflict penalties.
Fixed.

Quote
Lightwave Barrier (II)-Weapons without missile on their names or without deal only half [...]
Maybe the missing part is meant to be "Beam in their name". In which case it could be "All weapons except beam or missile weapons deal only half..."
Yes, beam is missing, no it cannot be a text that spawns discussinons about "machine guns are missile weapons! Swords too because they can be thrown! And spells! And breaths! Everything is a missile weapon, it's just a matter of perspective!"

Also, there is already Beam Coat at that arsenal level, in case you meant there to be only one barrier option per arsenal level.
That was the original plan, but since I already wrote Lightwaver barrier, meh.

Quote
Do you even sci-fi? Many people out there consider that getting a clone to carry your will is as good as immortality.
Cloning Gambit Expendable Clone
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Since all clones aren't mind-linked in some way that does not apply, however. If you send a clone to adventure somewhere, the XP it gains are technically not shared with the one hidden at the base (I suppose since each clone have the same XP upon creation they can also leave a clone to spend XP on spells/item crafting, then be dismissed so that it doesn't affect the XP of the one to become the original. Might want to prevent that kind of stuff). Whatever it learns is not learned by the one hiding away unless they have a way to communicate. If the clone dies, the new original will know since his stats increase but would have to recover the copy's mecha's blackbox to check what happened. Assuming the wreck of the mecha copy does not disappear as well and so leave no blackbox, which is likely the case. Otherwise you can also dismiss their corpse/mecha wreckage, I suppose, unless destroyed/kill copies are instantly treated as dismissed. That isn't clear.
Good points. Added anti-exp spending clause, clarified dismissal in the case of death/destruction, clarified exp earning.



Sentient Support: The supporting still has the robot spend an immediate action to provide bonuses to the one currently piloting the robot... but he cannot spend actions while being piloted since it only gets actions while the pilot is out of it, which means that upgrade needs tricks to apply, such as piloting the robot while outside of like through Innovade.

Yeah, Supporting is more trouble than it's worth honestly, removed it.

Absolute Barrier: God nerfs. I read it again I can tell you right now that the chosen vulnerability will almost always be missiles. If only because there aren't all that many arsenal missile weapons and that most options are on real robots built-ins and I think all of them are ranged, unlike the beam weapons.
Yeah but for 1 Hard Point / Hyperdimensional Storage you can just pick up Beam Coat which isn't some kind of "wall". Then end outcome can be your defense arrays prevents 20% damage at the cost of energy but is weak against beams because only it prevents 50% damage for free.
Beam coat also costs energy, taking Hyperdimensional Storage means you're not taking Mysterious Power, and Absolute Barrier's anti-stacking does mention "and similar abilities". Which Beam Coat is pretty much the definition, particularly since it was the first stated up for this project. But since that wasn't enough for you to notice, added explicitly coat to the anti-stacking clause. The horror!

It also has a problem of being worse than a Wizard vs Sorcerer debate. At a few key levels, since you always generate energy at the start of your turn, you always ignore your opponent's barrier. In reverse, say the BBEG is one level higher, it becomes a nearly unwinnable fight as you have you deal with his reduction and he ignores yours unless you expressly use one of the many nova options I've talked about for glass cannon nuking because fights should be over in 1/10 someone's turn I guess.
BBEG's barrier being better than yours only happens at exactly levels 3, 7, 11 and 15, anywhere else an extra level won't buy you a superior Absolute Barrier. And energy-draining special weapons have existed forever for a reason, besides the new fresh Arsenal option. The unimagineable horror!

It's Free Action immunity is also is massively abusive. I'd call out Fireball but I'm sick of the totally fucking retarded bullshit comments that go with it, so pick any area effect that doesn't use an attack roll in any of his poorly written grotesquely more powerful than WotC's homebrew for example and use that instead. It's not an attack and so it doesn't cost energy and if it falls into one of the things it's basically ignored for free. It doesn't even scale with his Alien Alloy Upgrade. Spend one point for Resist 10 in one element that can never be changed vs the Barrier's "tertiary effect of another upgrade gives 100% protection with a free action to change to any element, and more, as you like."
Invisibility text disagress with you for what counts as an attack. So does Sanctuary since it specifically calls area attacks as bypassing it, which would be completely pointless if area effects didn't count as attacks. The horror unimabineable!

Zero State is getting better. Nope, still can't say that with a straight face but I tried. Zero State is punishing casters even more now but feel free to invent yet another broken Arsenal attack option. Like Linked Anti-Ship Swords for 3,925/rnd @lv12/30Str, it's so much damage you should just look into switching a bunch of them out to debuff the crap out of your opponent first using grenades & keywords like Pinning & Concussive. And Martial Adepts, err correction WotC's Martial Adepts are screwed in the rear but not Osl's Classes, Real/Super Pilots can still simply reenter their Stances and since they bypass Ready they can still use their Maneuvers when they don't use Circuit. Given Soul Melders and Binders are not limited in anyway either there is certainly some nich optimization in there for them too.
Essentia is a limited resource, and entering SRWd20 stances costs energy. You got me on Binders (why not truenamer spam since we're at it?), but you still have to explain how exactly you're pulling 1000+ energy for all the clones to swing. Heck even two clones stabbing with linked Anti-Ship Swords will cost 140 energy by themselves, which is doable but also already stretching the limit of what a level 12 super robot can do. Adding a third clone swinging will only work with Tek Reactor and drain all of your energy. Or it would, but you have no energy left for actually entering Brave Stance for linking the Anti-Ship Swords. Horror the!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 07:47:06 AM by oslecamo »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #608 on: February 28, 2017, 11:19:01 AM »
Yeah, Supporting is more trouble than it's worth honestly, removed it.
You should revise Sentient anyway. You clearly want to keep treating the mech as an Object, in order to correctly do this you should word it that the mech gains an AI that has your Wis/Cha score, Feats, Skills, etc and pilots the mech for you using specially installed motors and servos that give the mech an effective Str/Dex score. And shouldn't even gain a Constitution Score in the first place seeing how it's a Construct.

This allows the AI to be the Creature part of the machine, piloting it as per standard, instead of the Mech it's self becoming a Creature.

Yes, beam is missing, no it cannot be a text that spawns discussinons about "machine guns are missile weapons! Swords too because they can be thrown! And spells! And breaths! Everything is a missile weapon, it's just a matter of perspective!"
Just clearly tag what things are instead of leaving things totally ambiguous.

Sort of like "other energy walls/barriers/fields" doesn't include coats of paint. Which all the other energy walls/barriers/fields/coats will need to be updated like Absolute Barrier. A little wording revision to call them force fields or something in each would paint a clearer picture and then instead of rattling off what you consider to be synonyms you could just say they don't stack with other force fields.

BBEG's barrier being better than yours only happens at exactly levels 3, 7, 11 and 15, anywhere else an extra level won't buy you a superior Absolute Barrier. And energy-draining special weapons have existed forever for a reason, besides the new fresh Arsenal option. I'm a large child!
Energy draining techniques like 25 clones or firing twelve weapons at once, or any other broken glass cannon trick as I previously mentioned, works too. See also the snarky comment that combat is supposed to last 1/10th someone's turn.

But you're wasting actions trying to drain their energy when if they are using one they probably have energy upgrades. And seeing how my entire point was based on the secondary ability of the field to ignore all other energy walls/barriers/fields/coats/covers/blankets/ceilings it really doesn't matter if you drain it since they always have energy at the start of their turn. Worse, since the text really isn't clear you may end up ruling each time a superior field using mech attacks a lesser they still expend energy per hit even through it prevents zero damage which is seriously detrimental because they are going to need to burn a lot of energy to try and hurt the other guy.

Invisibility text disagress with the PHB, DMG, MM, and RC's glossary/entries on what is or isn't an attack. So does Sanctuary since it specifically calls area attacks as bypassing it, which would be completely pointless if area effects didn't count as attacks. Hold on while I suck my thumb!
Maybe try using the term harmful or describing what you mean or even cross-indexing Invisibility.

Essentia is a limited resource
A limited resource yes, but it's not a resource that's expended or recovered. Think of it like you have five glowing orbs of infinite energy, you can set them on consoles to power them and pick them up when you want, sometimes a console is picky and can only let you put things on it once per day, but how you move the orbs around is entirely up to you. Shaping Soul Melds is limited with a per day cap like Spells, but they remained Shaped indefinitely.

but you still have to explain how exactly you're pulling 1000+ energy for all the clones to swing. Heck even two clones stabbing with linked Anti-Ship Swords will cost 140 energy by themselves,
Change the example to any Heavy weapon that doesn't use Energy then. Since 98% of your weapons don't use Energy in the first place it's not a column I care to check.

Like the FXA-03M2 Hyper Mega Launcher & Demolition Chain Missile are both lv3s, both deal even more damage, and they both use zero energy for example. Fail to rebuttal much? The Launcher can even be fired four times for each one you equip too. So really the biggest problem is Arsenal Points, but as already brought up there is so much damage you should just take the time to chunk one of every Grenade you can buy first anyway and maybe pick up some 60mm Gatling Cannons to trigger several stacks of Pinning so they can't move.

And seriously, we could be at this all year. Even if you ban Heavy Weapons I'll just use normal ones. Even if you ban all Arsenal I'll just move to Amplified Breath Weapons, Reserve Feats, Ritual of Dark Fire, or even a freaking Monk. And if you ban those well I'm sure I'll find something. Rather than listing the exceptions that should be banned, you should just revise the ability. There are ways to do clones, I think a few posts ago I even listed a half-dozen ways WotC did it, and they all are less powerful than your option and they somehow manged to do it without the self contradiction of trying to offer immortality but preventing healing.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 12:42:21 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #609 on: March 01, 2017, 12:39:16 AM »
Comments that basically amount to the same old clear typing & it's overpowered side, what's your stance on people adding homebrew to your homebrew? I just watched Heart Hybrid (I feel like I'm admitting to watching porn here) over the last two days and finished it up this evening. Complaints about the show aside I like the idea. Sooo....


(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

*blows on his fingers* They need to cool off some.

Needs finished, proof reading, maybe some expansion text on a few upgrades for clarity, Mecha-Size mentions, and probably some number crunching since I only eyeballed the additions to make them a little more relevant in a SWR campaign. Not 100% sure what I'll do with with weapon empowerment other than those silly values like burst firing, Zero State, and Twin/Linked won't be an option. But maybe it'll only need Str/Dex to damage since it starts out fairly high (like 10d6, but of course it caps at 10d12 which is like lv3 heavy arsenal or lv6ish volatile).
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 03:47:36 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #610 on: March 01, 2017, 12:48:13 AM »
I figured you the kind to prefer to admitting to watching porn than mahou shoujo  :P

But hot damn that's an impressive amount of work in probably a rather short amount of time. You even littered it with pics!

Edit: I read through it and my first impression is that this is pretty powerful. But in the sense of like a non-gestalt standing up against a gestalt in terms of all of Os' SRW stuff is fully intended and meant for gestalt games whereas this can be managed with a lot less of the shortcomings the SRW classes have when played in a non-gestalt game. But while also keeping relatively powerful in comparison to a gestalt SRW game.


Or something, I dunno -_-'
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 01:00:19 AM by ketaro »

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #611 on: March 01, 2017, 01:24:49 AM »
It seems pretty cool, but I'm slightly confused as to how the upgrades are intended to work in an SRW campaign, the size ones in particular. Is it intended that you can have vastly more HP than anything else in an SRW campaign?

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #612 on: March 01, 2017, 01:30:00 AM »
True, while most of it looks nice, those size upgrades are pretty dang crazy.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #613 on: March 01, 2017, 01:56:23 AM »
But hot damn that's an impressive amount of work in probably a rather short amount of time. You even littered it with pics!
Most of the ideas are preconceived through. I always wanted a "transforming" class and Burlow's Avatar was just too weak. The idea of using PL's for Aersenal levels came up months ago when I finally started commenting in here and I already did an extensive amount of table work buried in one of my discussion threads for Modern's mechs. Most of the pictures came from just kicking out screen shots while I rewatched parts of it too with just a tiny bit of work to resize them down to about 12.5%. The two top ones through came from google images and required some mousework through. Their shrunk down so you won't notice the crappy job of cutting the background out :p

To be honest I wasted a vast majority of the time trying to get the damn spell table to line up right. I have a couple blanks I can just paste in but since it copies the Mystic Ranger's progression I had to add the Spells by hand. Except I started it two levels late, it's jump from 4th to 5th irritated me, then I was like it needs 6ths, then I like let's just take it to 9ths for SWR games and I'll cut the Slots/Known down to 2 later to force a more limited range of Spells. And as you can tell, I still didn't go back and bump them back down through.

Edit: I read through it and my first impression is that this is pretty powerful.
It's pretty much stuck at that as the inherent flaw of being mech related.

Buuuut... Remember it loses Pilot Feats (no +60 dr for devotion), it also loses 9th~7th spell access bumping it's casting down to Bardic levels, and doesn't obtain any Spirits in a none-SWR campaign. If you're running pure Modern a couple good rolls can give you a Large Mecha to run around in without even consuming Class Levels depending on how much you focus on your Wealth Bonus so you can easily "gestalt" if the DM allows D&D classes in Modern. The delayed progression and none-stacking elements actually makes it weaker than a more advanced Modern game would run so it's pretty hit or miss depending on how rare the DM wants to make advanced mechs. Over on the D&D side I did note using it as a PrC which delays it quite a bit. Giving +4 Str & +50hp by your 6th level really isn't too bad. It's difficulty point is Modern's weapons are exceedingly deadly. Like 1st level characters with a Glock can Double Tap for 3d6 damage and mecha Rocket Launchers deal 10d6 damage. That's kind of where I hit the rut at, a pure D&D usage is an element of consideration for me and it'll probably need some scaling applied to it. I actually ran into this problem but when I first tried Parody Rangers which is why their weapons are even higher than Moderns (also the game is initially designed to kill you in horrendously ackward ways).

It seems pretty cool, but I'm slightly confused as to how the upgrades are intended to work in an SRW campaign, the size ones in particular. Is it intended that you can have vastly more HP than anything else in an SRW campaign?
Technically yes? It's Modern's HP scale, the Colossal variants even go up to 1,000hp. But even so, I don't plan on changing it.

While the DR is pretty comparable, even with the SWR buff applied, a Super Robot can use Great & Arsenal to produce a higher value. Likewise the only percentile reduction offer is meant to prevent Full-Attacks, comparatively Osl has just spammed a dozen force fields for SWR. It's really not even difficult to land 50% or greater damage reduction against the first couple of attacks received each turn. So ideally in SWR vs Magitech, the Magitech has more HP to soak up damage while the SWR simply takes less damage. Since I don't plan on inventing any dafaq attack sequences they may actually need some kind of added benefit like how Close Canceller works, through I hate binary based crap. It'll probably be hit or miss solely depending on how I work out damage scaling and for that I need some time to think about it.

True, while most of it looks nice, those size upgrades are pretty dang crazy.
That's actually per Modern & standard Size Improvement too.  :P

It also helps Modern's mecha melee values fall pretty short. Like PL8 melee only deals 16d6 per hit, and that's including a Colossal Size Modifier that 3rd doesn't even bother with and Modern doesn't apply to ranged weapons, including the modifier that's 72 damage. A PL5 Rocket Launcher deals 15d6 or 52 or 72% of that figure. Hell the V-14 Antimatter Cannon hits for 10d12, splashes for 6d12, and arguably you can apply Future Tech's modifications to it. +10 dice for -10 to attack rolls, that's +6.5 dmg per -1 to attack, and I have no idea how that is supposed to interact with splash effects. Did I mention Future Tech is a horrible book?
Change Log
01-24-17, added one of the official methods of exchanging purchase dcs to gold values and it's the mecha/D&D specific one.
01-**-17, some of the customization options have been listed such as mech slots & armor.
01-19-17, Future Tech is a very poorly written book missing tables and expected information.
01-15-17, Future's equipment listed.
Yes, yes I did...

Coolest part? I did most of this while on the clock. It was a zero call day for me :D
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 03:59:26 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #614 on: March 01, 2017, 02:20:22 AM »
Oh, well there's my problem. I do not know D20 Modern rules in any regards haha

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #615 on: March 01, 2017, 02:30:30 AM »
Oh, well there's my problem. I do not know D20 Modern rules in any regards haha
You can cheat & peek at the tabled information here.

Even using WotC's official articles a Large Mecha with no equipment officially costs costs 32,500gp, this is a direct book conversion too using Modern's Purchase DC to Cash & Arcana's gp:cash ratios. So you could even go Huge for +200hp & +16 Str for 100,000gp, with PL8 on the table it even reduces damage from attacks by 30, and it only costs 325gp to give it a LT-5 Longshot Mass Driver (15d6 per hit) to shoot people with. Obviously it needs hit with a nerf bat if the DM isn't throwing mechs at you. :p

Overall there is a lot of small problems that pop up when you try to merge the systems. Like Arcana is designed to let you port in the entire DMG's MiC's Magic Items into Modern. Can you imagine Splitting on this stuff? In reverse you get stuff like my joke in the Fun Finds thread about using Call Weaponry to summon antimatter weapons.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 02:54:55 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #616 on: March 01, 2017, 03:04:29 AM »
Can someone with Zero State and the Heats feat combine the mecha-copies into a uber mecha? That's kind of funny. They technically all took Heats together at the same time. Ideally you choose an allied main pilot that isn't one of the split copies so the uber mecha can still get full resource recovery and benefits from a big boost to its super upgrades.
I'd like to do that. Anyone wanna do this?

Support Scientist Staff
Materials: Are those supposed to be a daily/weekly/other thing? So far it seems you roll the mining production once and that's it. That's what you have to work with until you make another factory mining base on which you get the roll you're looking for.
Although it may feel interesting I find that it makes it more interesting now as a cohort/follower since you wouldn't want to play a character whose class features are fixed on giving a passive that doesn't need them for the rest of the day so they can just chill home until maintenance time. And most require the base to really be useful, which begins at level 4.
They can work without materials, but then those buffed suck more for the rest of the day or even for the rest of the fight, which makes it a shitty buffer. If you go for the anti-buffing standard action uses you spend half the day working and then there's nothing really interesting to do during the fights.

Convert Data- Mandatory. It gives you something to do in fights. It is also in feet instead of mecha scale. And there is no terrible effect after using it, which is always a nice way for things to be when you're trying to support your teammates.
Prototype Weaponry- Probably too strong for the permanent option. I don't see why one would want to invest more than one pick in this and not just take it for the perma. Maybe the standard action version should just be a less interesting weapon that doesn't last long or would have a very limited amount of ammo to it determined by the number of picks.
It another Support Staff Mechanic with Fix It is around, though, you can make plenty of super weapons for everyone.
Experimental Module- I'd say it is almost the same as proto-weaponry, but it is a trap. Even though it sounds OP when permanent, you make your entire mecha volatile while its lasts, which is makes it a buff you'd only want to apply to an enemy.
Counter Measure- Plenty of energy barriers to pick but only one anti-barrier to select. The option to select counter-counter measures feels like a bad idea if only because it feels like a DM-tool to always have the last word when it comes to denying an arsenal/spell/maneuver option. At least it doesn't need materials but after you've invested some in it, most of your class' contribution is just sticking around to prevent something that may or may not actually be relevant.
And there seems to be no means to stop it.
Mechanization- Guess early game it makes it worth bringing a bunch of sleeping cats around. It would also work great with chickens to make food to feed the masses when they'll explode in a mecha-sized mess of gore. :)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 03:08:42 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #617 on: March 01, 2017, 01:10:32 PM »
Can someone with Zero State and the Heats feat combine the mecha-copies into a uber mecha? That's kind of funny. They technically all took Heats together at the same time. Ideally you choose an allied main pilot that isn't one of the split copies so the uber mecha can still get full resource recovery and benefits from a big boost to its super upgrades.
I'd like to do that. Anyone wanna do this?
I'm gonna edit an explicit no to that right away.

In particular because if it worked would result in an infinite loop  where the combined mecha splits again then re-combines once more, repeat for more and more upgrade and size stacking.


Support Scientist Staff
Materials: Are those supposed to be a daily/weekly/other thing? So far it seems you roll the mining production once and that's it.
That's what you have to work with until you make another factory mining base on which you get the roll you're looking for.
Yes, roll once and hope you get lucky. Or find an use for what you have to work with.

Although it may feel interesting I find that it makes it more interesting now as a cohort/follower since you wouldn't want to play a character whose class features are fixed on giving a passive that doesn't need them for the rest of the day so they can just chill home until maintenance time. And most require the base to really be useful, which begins at level 4.
Good points, modified the abilities a bit so they reward the scientist for sticking close to their experiments.

They can work without materials, but then those buffed suck more for the rest of the day or even for the rest of the fight, which makes it a shitty buffer. If you go for the anti-buffing standard action uses you spend half the day working and then there's nothing really interesting to do during the fights.
Hmmm, I guess that's what the super weapons will be for.

Also nothing stopping a scientist from taking some weapons themselves and adding some dakka. Never enuff dakka.

Convert Data- Mandatory. It gives you something to do in fights. It is also in feet instead of mecha scale. And there is no terrible effect after using it, which is always a nice way for things to be when you're trying to support your teammates.
Fixed scale. And yes this was supposed to be the less risky version.

Prototype Weaponry- Probably too strong for the permanent option. I don't see why one would want to invest more than one pick in this and not just take it for the perma. Maybe the standard action version should just be a less interesting weapon that doesn't last long or would have a very limited amount of ammo to it determined by the number of picks.
It another Support Staff Mechanic with Fix It is around, though, you can make plenty of super weapons for everyone.
Yes, synergy was intended. Although now the weapon is more reliable as long as the scientist remains close.

Experimental Module- I'd say it is almost the same as proto-weaponry, but it is a trap. Even though it sounds OP when permanent, you make your entire mecha volatile while its lasts, which is makes it a buff you'd only want to apply to an enemy.
As above, changed it so the mecha remains "safe" while close to the scientist.

Counter Measure- Plenty of energy barriers to pick but only one anti-barrier to select. The option to select counter-counter measures feels like a bad idea if only because it feels like a DM-tool to always have the last word when it comes to denying an arsenal/spell/maneuver option. At least it doesn't need materials but after you've invested some in it, most of your class' contribution is just sticking around to prevent something that may or may not actually be relevant.
Removed option for counter-counters, you're right it could be kinda dickish from the DM's side.
Added option to switch on the fly but then it only lasts 1d12 rounds and then is useless for 1d12 hours.

And there seems to be no means to stop it.
Kill the sciencetist. :p


Mechanization- Guess early game it makes it worth bringing a bunch of sleeping cats around. It would also work great with chickens to make food to feed the masses when they'll explode in a mecha-sized mess of gore. :)
Added some comments about that. Not gonna block it since yay utility, but mechanization is supposed to involve attaching motors and plating and whatnot to the creature so taste will not be so good.

Also put up first drafts of super weapons. Following your advice, made them something you want to use during combat.

Planning on more "simple" super weapons like nukes and orbital drops to be given to the military path. Destructive and reliable but make everybody hate you more because lots of collateral damage.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #618 on: March 01, 2017, 03:42:23 PM »
Sometimes you just have to dive right in right?

First pass on Magitech weapons produces this.
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Little more focused on D&D scaling at the moment through but overall the damage values fall anywhere between 54%~17% damage reduction compared to pure Modern. Broken down it looks a little more like this.

Baseline was set at Greatsword @18Str, or 2d7+6 (13), you could have a little more or a little less depending on Race/Class.
Ballistics start at 4d6 (14) and have unlimited use and also they really don't have much variance. You can trade Autofire for increased range and that's about it. For every four levels they gain +3.5 on average, like by level 6 when you can attack twice you're looking at 35 damage. A 6th level Fighter with Melee Weapon Mastery & 18 Str deals 2d6+10 or 34 damage. Didn't keep going but looks fine.

Missiles start at 6d6 (21), it's more damage but limited use (twice per encounter per upgrade bought), they also are area weapons but offer a Save for 1/2 damage (10.5) using a static DC. Like Ballistics they basically gain a 3.5 per four levels but I played with dice & types. Like PL7 is 7d6 (24.5), well 4d12 (22) & 10d4 (25) feels different but it's not really that much.

For quick/easy scale, pure Modern games will simply use the default damage values found in Future/FutureTech. SWR on the other hand it's vastly out scaled and barely even able to break defenses, it'll probably get Dex to damage and not sure what else. I mean the upper end is 10d6 (35) which actually has a +1d6 bonus tied to it, comparatively Arsenal VII's Warhead Launchers are 7d12 (45.5) and they don't offer Reflex Saves across an 80mu line. Trying to say +50% dice doesn't work since I feel it gets too complicated, same with +1/die. Maybe +1/2 your level to damage might work.

Ideas?

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #619 on: March 01, 2017, 03:49:11 PM »
Quote
Materials; Yes, roll once and hope you get lucky. Or find an use for what you have to work with.
Or take the base down and make it again until you roll what you're looking for.

Otherwise, good stuff! The changes make it a lot more playable. I'll read through it again with more attention later on.

Quote
In particular because if it worked would result in an infinite loop  where the combined mecha splits again then re-combines once more, repeat for more and more upgrade and size stacking.
Makes me think that I should check for other ways a similar exploit could be reached through extra upgrade points, such as the Scientist's.
There is also the case of the upgrades that apply penalties to the pilot (such as half spirit recovery). Since the upgrades/arsenal that add spirit points are lost when not piloted, those penalties are also removed when the pilot isn't piloting the mecha.