Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 247125 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #620 on: March 01, 2017, 09:11:13 PM »
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Materials; Yes, roll once and hope you get lucky. Or find an use for what you have to work with.
Or take the base down and make it again until you roll what you're looking for.
The roll is made and only made when the area is first discovered, representing the type of raw materials available to work with. Clarified.

Otherwise, good stuff! The changes make it a lot more playable. I'll read through it again with more attention later on.
Looking forward to it.

Then only the medic up to do and next is unexpected pilot class(name pending)-somehow always finds random mechas to pilot, trips on secret passages and forgotten weapon caches, etc.

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In particular because if it worked would result in an infinite loop  where the combined mecha splits again then re-combines once more, repeat for more and more upgrade and size stacking.
Makes me think that I should check for other ways a similar exploit could be reached through extra upgrade points, such as the Scientist's.
Clarified anti-stacking for Experimental Module.

There is also the case of the upgrades that apply penalties to the pilot (such as half spirit recovery). Since the upgrades/arsenal that add spirit points are lost when not piloted, those penalties are also removed when the pilot isn't piloting the mecha.

Actually Zero State's penalty directly adresses the pilot. Clarified that the penalties apply to the pilot all the time too.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #621 on: March 02, 2017, 02:25:56 AM »
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The roll is made and only made when the area is first discovered, representing the type of raw materials available to work with. Clarified.
Ah, so the area can be skipped until you find the one you're looking for. Not as bad then. Because it would really suck to have your build hinge on a single roll. The materials effectively split the Scientist into Scientist type A, Scientist type B and so on. It would have been simpler to just scratch the character until you get to play the type of scientist you're interested in.

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Then only the medic up to do and next is unexpected pilot class(name pending)-somehow always finds random mechas to pilot, trips on secret passages and forgotten weapon caches, etc.
Wouldn't such a pilot technically be a super pilot as well? I thought stumbling upon a mecha was part of their gig.

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Actually Zero State's penalty directly adresses the pilot. Clarified that the penalties apply to the pilot all the time too.
In that case shouldn't bonuses that apply to the pilot himself apply all the time as well? I see the term "main pilot" come up more often now, especially for stuff that affects the pilot himself, so it doesn't apply to any other pilot using the mecha anyway.

As for Sentient's Imprint upgrade, when it says the mecha gains the stats of the pilot, what exactly does it include? I imagine it certainly is meant to include the ability scores but is there anything else? Does it get the Hit Points, BAB, base save of the pilot and other similar statistics? A sentient mecha with soul of the machine upgrades and tek soul or imprinting Soul Up feats doesn't have the spirits class features so it has nothing to do with its spirit points anyway. Also, the term "main pilot" isn't present so it applies to the last person to have piloted it.

Convert Data
How exactly does that work? It says "Ignore any other bonus that would further increase this number, but penalties apply normally." Is that meant to mean that the bonus of Convert Data does not stack with any other bonus in the chosen stat?
Because, say for AC the base is 10 and everything else is a bonus. If Pilot A has an AC of 30 and Pilot B has an AC of 40. Then unless the Convert Data's max bonus is at least 21 Pilot A wouldn't benefit from it.
A lot may hinge on this as since the ability's temporary effect applies to every ally within range at once which can be either super OP or pretty meh unless you completely focus on that ability.

Experimental Module
Is it intended that some options of each material aren't having any synergy with each other?
Miniaturization/Zero Pattern ; Hyperdimensional Storage/Mysterious Power ; Main Weapon/Special Attack (a little)

Mechanization
Here's hoping someone isn't dumb enough to pick this before 3rd level and realize he can't apply it on nothin'.

Super Weapon: "fullround action for at least one round ago setting it up"
Sentence is weird. I think it is meant to say "full round action to set it up. Starting the next round after setting it up, you may activate it with a standard action unless mentioned otherwise.
Chronosphere
Send people into the future? Don't think that's a good idea. It puts "splitting the party" to a whole new level. And it can be abused. Soon as I read it I found a way to use this to peep into the future to collect info for the present.


Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #622 on: March 02, 2017, 06:26:21 AM »
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The roll is made and only made when the area is first discovered, representing the type of raw materials available to work with. Clarified.
Ah, so the area can be skipped until you find the one you're looking for. Not as bad then. Because it would really suck to have your build hinge on a single roll. The materials effectively split the Scientist into Scientist type A, Scientist type B and so on. It would have been simpler to just scratch the character until you get to play the type of scientist you're interested in.
Well it's supposed to promote exploration and contacting other support staff to learn what materials are where.

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Then only the medic up to do and next is unexpected pilot class(name pending)-somehow always finds random mechas to pilot, trips on secret passages and forgotten weapon caches, etc.
Wouldn't such a pilot technically be a super pilot as well? I thought stumbling upon a mecha was part of their gig.
Ah, but the super pilot can not only be a fated thing, but also gets to pick what they want. Whereas the unexpected pilot will be "ok, today I found a Gespent loaded to the brim with missiles, crappy engine but extra plating. If it gets wrecked (and it will get wrecked) I'll find something else completely different". The anti-planning class basically, you literally roll with what the dice gods grant you.

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Actually Zero State's penalty directly adresses the pilot. Clarified that the penalties apply to the pilot all the time too.
In that case shouldn't bonuses that apply to the pilot himself apply all the time as well? I see the term "main pilot" come up more often now, especially for stuff that affects the pilot himself, so it doesn't apply to any other pilot using the mecha anyway.
Again, HEATS. If I let the benefits apply when not actually piloting, then it opens up stacking loops when the mechas combine.

As for Sentient's Imprint upgrade, when it says the mecha gains the stats of the pilot, what exactly does it include? I imagine it certainly is meant to include the ability scores but is there anything else? Does it get the Hit Points, BAB, base save of the pilot and other similar statistics? A sentient mecha with soul of the machine upgrades and tek soul or imprinting Soul Up feats doesn't have the spirits class features so it has nothing to do with its spirit points anyway. Also, the term "main pilot" isn't present so it applies to the last person to have piloted it.
Ability scores, Bab, saves, clarified. The mecha already has its own HP.

Also yes, not very synergetic with Soul of the Machine, since Imprint is supposed to be more cold sci-finess and Soul of the Machine is more hotblooded mystic tech. Limited to main pilot.

Convert Data
How exactly does that work? It says "Ignore any other bonus that would further increase this number, but penalties apply normally." Is that meant to mean that the bonus of Convert Data does not stack with any other bonus in the chosen stat?
Because, say for AC the base is 10 and everything else is a bonus. If Pilot A has an AC of 30 and Pilot B has an AC of 40. Then unless the Convert Data's max bonus is at least 21 Pilot A wouldn't benefit from it.
A lot may hinge on this as since the ability's temporary effect applies to every ally within range at once which can be either super OP or pretty meh unless you completely focus on that ability.
It means that once someody is benefiting from the Convert Data they can't benefit from any other bonus to the stat. A simple example is that if you're benefiting from Convert Data for attack and AC, using Focus won't do anything for you neither will be being near somebody with the leadership feat.

Anyway it's mostly supposed to benefit mooks while those who are already pretty good by themselves are best as research data.

Experimental Module
Is it intended that some options of each material aren't having any synergy with each other?
Miniaturization/Zero Pattern ; Hyperdimensional Storage/Mysterious Power ; Main Weapon/Special Attack (a little)
Yes.

Mechanization
Here's hoping someone isn't dumb enough to pick this before 3rd level and realize he can't apply it on nothin'.
It would work with 1/2 and 1/3 CR creatures. You even mentioned cats and everything.

Super Weapon: "fullround action for at least one round ago setting it up"
Sentence is weird. I think it is meant to say "full round action to set it up. Starting the next round after setting it up, you may activate it with a standard action unless mentioned otherwise.
That works nicely, thanks!

Chronosphere
Send people into the future? Don't think that's a good idea. It puts "splitting the party" to a whole new level.

And it can be abused. Soon as I read it I found a way to use this to peep into the future to collect info for the present.

I'll have to first ask what amazing trick you discovered to communicate with the past. In which case you don't need the chronosphere, you can just have your future self warn you.

Not too worried about splitting the party since they would need to be caught ouside their mechas meaning something already went horribly wrong.

Also alternate realities and butterly effects and stuff, aka sending information into the past messes the time-up continuum and changes the future.

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #623 on: March 02, 2017, 06:36:18 AM »
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Again, HEATS. If I let the benefits apply when not actually piloting, then it opens up stacking loops when the mechas combine.

How? The same bonus types from same or different sources don't stack, so only the highest prevails, no?

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #624 on: March 02, 2017, 09:23:16 PM »
First repass over the material, couple entries better worded and more images added for the missing areas. Spell were dropped to 4 but are now ran through Hybrid Points which now gives you a reason to invest into Constitution instead of dumping it. If you start with 14 Con for example you can only mech up twice per day at the first level for two rounds each. It also costs points to cast spells too so the points awarded are fairly low but quickly increased, however it ignores spell buffs so you can't cheat up extra points by spending them. Corruption Armaments, or Immoral Weapons for the perverse, well come in on a sooner level but also consume Hybrid Points when I get around to creating the entry. Current vague idea is instead of simply increasing the damage I'll use some of the more interesting WSA & Arsenal properties. Point consumption will also be used in some of the misc upgrades, like hp regen will consume points too.

Energy Weapons added, they stick to the damage formula laid down and offer tiny variants. Mostly it just offers fire damage, I had to expend on ion a bit too. In Modern they were pretty worthless, low damage and subject to the Antishock Arrays (resist 20!), but now they actually deal more than the damage curve since they auto-heal 5dmg/rnd and Spirit-based healing can still be activated by the pilot even if the mecha goes inert. Specifically against SRW mecha they drain energy and they ignore force field effects instead of dealing damage which means I also created a reason for a Super Pilot to invest in Alien Alloy.

A couple days from now I'll post it as it's own thread once I get a majority of the ground work finished. I also have a table bug somewhere in the code to deal with too :(
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 09:29:36 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #625 on: March 03, 2017, 12:56:40 AM »
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Again, HEATS. If I let the benefits apply when not actually piloting, then it opens up stacking loops when the mechas combine.

How? The same bonus types from same or different sources don't stack, so only the highest prevails, no?


It opens murky waters where the secondary pilots will still be benefiting and depending on how you read it, plus the secondary pilots may benefit from the stacked souls of the machine from the combined robot and everybody ends with a crapload more spirit and spirit regen even after they exit. And that's simply not worth the trouble when Soul of the Machine is already pretty popular even when not open to such stacking abuses.

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #626 on: March 03, 2017, 01:20:56 AM »
So you can't just say none of the Zero abilities can work while under the effects of HEATS?

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #627 on: March 03, 2017, 02:49:34 AM »
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Again, HEATS. If I let the benefits apply when not actually piloting, then it opens up stacking loops when the mechas combine.
I do not see how. If the mecha is no more the Soul of the Machine effects no longer apply. When they apply, it applies to the main pilot. When Heats combine mechas, the original mechas are out of the game as you get the new combined mecha so the SotM upgrades are no longer keyed to their previous main pilot. The combined mecha's SotM upgrades are keyed the main pilot of the combined mecha. Once the combined mecha splits back into its mecha components, the original SotM upgrades return to their main mecha. Secondary pilots have no possible way to benefit. At least, I don't see any.

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It means that once someody is benefiting from the Convert Data they can't benefit from any other bonus to the stat. A simple example is that if you're benefiting from Convert Data for attack and AC, using Focus won't do anything for you neither will be being near somebody with the leadership feat.
So my previous example applied. The base AC is 10 so any other bonus types over 10 does not stack with the bonus from Convert Data.

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It would work with 1/2 and 1/3 CR creatures. You even mentioned cats and everything.
Not until third level since level 2-2 = 0. CR½ and ⅓ > 0. Unless I missed a rule somewhere that fractal CRs count as 0 for such things.

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I'll have to first ask what amazing trick you discovered to communicate with the past. In which case you don't need the chronosphere, you can just have your future self warn you.
Nothing special. Any effect that allows you to reroll a save to undo the effect would take care of it and return you to the present. Just have a weak Future-sender and be unwilling but willingly lose the save the first time (or repeat 'till you fail). Before you use the thing to undo the effect, use any other trick that would make the character get more information than a simple look around would provide.
An interesting one could be Past-Old History. Pretty much nobody has "present knowledge" of what the character did in the past while he was in the future. Because before he returned to the present, in the past, he was in the future. He initiates the maneuver and declares that he did a bar-run then, Gather Information, and got a good idea of whats going on from his fellow drinking pals of the future. Nobody in the present can contradict it happened back then when he was in the future, so it did will have happened.  :rolleyes

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Not too worried about splitting the party since they would need to be caught ouside their mechas meaning something already went horribly wrong.
Judging from the campaign so far, it could have happened a few times. And there isn't all that many ways to undo it. If they just died at they can be resurrected but when you're in the past there aren't all that many ways to return. And the worst is you're still playing so you really are split from the party unless you give up the character, and whatever you do has no effect on the other team while what they do may have an effect for your own timeline.

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Also alternate realities and butterly effects and stuff, aka sending information into the past messes the time-up continuum and changes the future.
It isn't all that hard to calibrate. Do it twice and see if something changed from having done it once. Reapply until you got a good idea of the possibilities. But just doing it once really helps. Taking a list of the future lottery tickets, for one.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #628 on: March 03, 2017, 07:14:54 AM »
So you can't just say none of the Zero abilities can work while under the effects of HEATS?
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Again, HEATS. If I let the benefits apply when not actually piloting, then it opens up stacking loops when the mechas combine.
I do not see how. If the mecha is no more the Soul of the Machine effects no longer apply. When they apply, it applies to the main pilot. When Heats combine mechas, the original mechas are out of the game as you get the new combined mecha so the SotM upgrades are no longer keyed to their previous main pilot. The combined mecha's SotM upgrades are keyed the main pilot of the combined mecha. Once the combined mecha splits back into its mecha components, the original SotM upgrades return to their main mecha. Secondary pilots have no possible way to benefit. At least, I don't see any.
Main point still stands, Soul of the Machine is already pretty good without need of it working when the pilot is somewhere else.

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It would work with 1/2 and 1/3 CR creatures. You even mentioned cats and everything.
Not until third level since level 2-2 = 0. CR½ and ⅓ > 0. Unless I missed a rule somewhere that fractal CRs count as 0 for such things.
There is no such rule, however there is the rule that CR never goes to zero but instead if you had to reduce it below 1 you start dividing instead of subtracting.

The classic example is the kobold that when with npc levels has CR equal to their character level -3. So a kobold warrior has CR 1/4 instead of  CR -2.

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I'll have to first ask what amazing trick you discovered to communicate with the past. In which case you don't need the chronosphere, you can just have your future self warn you.
Nothing special. Any effect that allows you to reroll a save to undo the effect would take care of it and return you to the present. Just have a weak Future-sender and be unwilling but willingly lose the save the first time (or repeat 'till you fail). Before you use the thing to undo the effect, use any other trick that would make the character get more information than a simple look around would provide.
An interesting one could be Past-Old History. Pretty much nobody has "present knowledge" of what the character did in the past while he was in the future. Because before he returned to the present, in the past, he was in the future. He initiates the maneuver and declares that he did a bar-run then, Gather Information, and got a good idea of whats going on from his fellow drinking pals of the future. Nobody in the present can contradict it happened back then when he was in the future, so it did will have happened.  :rolleyes
I'm afraid it's not as simple as you're making it to be. In particular because the effect-reversing abilities have one of two conditions:
a)The effect is still ongoing. But the chronosphere shift is instantaneous.
or
b)The effect happened on the last round and happened to yourself. But the chronosphere shift happened thousands of rounds ago.

The only ability I remember that may go through both of those is Erase History from someone staying behind. But activating a superweapon is a fullround+standard action which is beyond Erase History's inherent limits.

Even then there would be the following to consider:
-You can't just reverse the "bad" effect of going to the future, you would also be reversing the "good" effect of witnessing the future. So you could get somebody back, but since they never went to the future, they know nothing about it.
-The player can't actually act until their turn in the time sequence arrives, which will be days of in-game time. Just like somebody affected by Time Hop simply doesn't get to act until the turn timer catches up with them. And since the sent character didn't get to do anything until the party temporally catches up with them, then it means they indeed failed to return to the past.

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Not too worried about splitting the party since they would need to be caught ouside their mechas meaning something already went horribly wrong.
Judging from the campaign so far, it could have happened a few times. And there isn't all that many ways to undo it. If they just died at they can be resurrected but when you're in the past there aren't all that many ways to return. And the worst is you're still playing so you really are split from the party unless you give up the character, and whatever you do has no effect on the other team while what they do may have an effect for your own timeline.
I made it a time scale of days so the party can just timeskip a month or so. Not the end of the world. Longer times have been spent finding resources for ressurecting somebody when nobody on the party can do it.

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Also alternate realities and butterly effects and stuff, aka sending information into the past messes the time-up continuum and changes the future.
It isn't all that hard to calibrate. Do it twice and see if something changed from having done it once. Reapply until you got a good idea of the possibilities. But just doing it once really helps. Taking a list of the future lottery tickets, for one.
It has a 1d100 day spread. Even if you find ways around what I already mentioned, that would still mean thousands of attempts to get any meaningful statistics, and even then the future has infinite paths. Heck, it could be a campaign on its own right.  :P
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:16:30 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #629 on: March 03, 2017, 10:22:36 PM »
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The effect is still ongoing. But the chronosphere shift is instantaneous.
Those effects may not all require the effect to not be instantaneous, and then again, the effect isn't quite instantaneous since it takes 1d100 days to take effect.
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The effect happened on the last round and happened to yourself. But the chronosphere shift happened thousands of rounds ago.
The effect ended a round ago and went on for 1d100 days. If it counts as instantaneous, then as far as the character affected is concerned the effect happened the previous round.

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The only ability I remember that may go through both of those is Erase History from someone staying behind. But activating a superweapon is a fullround+standard action which is beyond Erase History's inherent limits.
Coincidentally, it was the first effect that came to mind when I read Chronosphere. Activating the superweapon is not a fullround+standard action, however.
It is a full round action to set it up. And then it is a standard action to activate. You only need to undo the activation. The character that stays behind and the one that goes into the future can also be the same character.

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-You can't just reverse the "bad" effect of going to the future, you would also be reversing the "good" effect of witnessing the future. So you could get somebody back, but since they never went to the future, they know nothing about it.
So after something has been erased from the past, nobody including the eraser remembers what was erased? It could seem that since it never happened, he likewise never erased it, which also should give him back the action used to erase the thing since he never erased it and it is still the current round, but that isn't the case as it does not reverse everything that happened in reaction to the erased thing, only the effect of the thing itself. So the action used to erase is still lost.

For example, a scholar takes a move action and goes into a trapped room. He triggers a trap on the way and a poisoned arrow ends up sticking out of his arse. Worse, the door shuts down behind him and the room starts to fill with water. Scholar decides that "hey, maybe this was a bad idea" and erases the move action he took to go into that room. First thing he does once he is back in the hall before that room? He goes back into that room since he forgot he erased the move and what happened on the way. Enter perpetual loop.
But since only the move action is undone, the only thing that changes is the movement of the scholar, so he is back into the hall but the door in front of him is shut and the room filling with water and he is still poisoned and hurt by that arrow. He could perhaps had undone the trap's action to shoot the poisoned arrow or that other trap's action of shutting the door and flooding the place, but although those happened because he moved there in the first place, only the movement is undone so he doesn't get to undo the effects of everyone's action in one go. Replace the trap by some dude activating them if trap actions cannot be undone. But he'll remember going there and that it was a terrible idea.

Likewise, undoing the chronosphere's activation returns the character back in the present but doesn't cancel everything that happened in that alternate dimension where some bloke appeared, drank his ass off with his friends and mysteriously disappeared.

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The player can't actually act until their turn in the time sequence arrives, which will be days of in-game time.
Past-Old History doesn't mind that detail. Only that he was there and nobody in the present has any proof to the contrary that he got to do stuff in that past-future.

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Just like somebody affected by Time Hop simply doesn't get to act until the turn timer catches up with them. I made it a time scale of days so the party can just timeskip a month or so. Not the end of the world. Longer times have been spent finding resources for ressurecting somebody when nobody on the party can do it.
Time Hop however clearly states that the affected character is gone and reappears when the power ends. It has a duration. If you want this to be instantaneous those affected aren't simply waiting for the 1d100 days to go by but instantly act in their own timeline 1d100 days later. If the duration is 1d100 days, it could indeed works as Time Hop though it should keep the same kind of clarification as to what exactly happens mechanically. The buffs of the affected character are on pause during the temporal journey and do not expire or similar.
But as for spending time to resurrect people and such, 1d100 days of game time can pretty much mean game over. Just in our campaign we've spent about 2 game days over several years. How long is a player on the bench for 1d100 days? He's just rolling a new character and that's that. By the time the character is back in the present the player will probably have entirely forgotten about it. If the player is still alive.

Anyway. All that to say that any time-based effect going beyond X-Y rounds is probably not such a good idea. Minutes or a day at best and that would be pretty darn epic.
Even Mass Time Hop affects only the willing. And isn't available starting level 1.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 10:48:21 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #630 on: March 04, 2017, 02:45:22 AM »
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The effect is still ongoing. But the chronosphere shift is instantaneous.
Those effects may not all require the effect to not be instantaneous, and then again, the effect isn't quite instantaneous since it takes 1d100 days to take effect.
It's instantaneous in the temporal scale just like teleport is instantenous in the physical scale.

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The effect happened on the last round and happened to yourself. But the chronosphere shift happened thousands of rounds ago.
The effect ended a round ago and went on for 1d100 days. If it counts as instantaneous, then as far as the character affected is concerned the effect happened the previous round.
Saying that effect durations are based on the character's perception is a massive broken can of worms and you don't need chronospheres at all to break it in a million pieces. You could just go "lalalala, man I'm bored, time's passing super slow for me, so my temporary buffs last forever from my perspective!" or "lalala time goes so fast, hey that stun already wore out from my perspective!".

If the temporal shift happened at 12 pm of Saturday 1st of March, it happened at 12 pm of saturday 1st of March, and a character temporally displaced to 12pm of the 29th of March is now 28x24x60x10 rounds after.

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The only ability I remember that may go through both of those is Erase History from someone staying behind. But activating a superweapon is a fullround+standard action which is beyond Erase History's inherent limits.
Coincidentally, it was the first effect that came to mind when I read Chronosphere. Activating the superweapon is not a fullround+standard action, however.
It is a full round action to set it up. And then it is a standard action to activate. You only need to undo the activation. The character that stays behind and the one that goes into the future can also be the same character.
Clarified that it counts as a fullround+standard actions for effects that care about it.

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-You can't just reverse the "bad" effect of going to the future, you would also be reversing the "good" effect of witnessing the future. So you could get somebody back, but since they never went to the future, they know nothing about it.
So after something has been erased from the past, nobody including the eraser remembers what was erased? It could seem that since it never happened, he likewise never erased it, which also should give him back the action used to erase the thing since he never erased it and it is still the current round, but that isn't the case as it does not reverse everything that happened in reaction to the erased thing, only the effect of the thing itself. So the action used to erase is still lost.

For example, a scholar takes a move action and goes into a trapped room. He triggers a trap on the way and a poisoned arrow ends up sticking out of his arse. Worse, the door shuts down behind him and the room starts to fill with water. Scholar decides that "hey, maybe this was a bad idea" and erases the move action he took to go into that room. First thing he does once he is back in the hall before that room? He goes back into that room since he forgot he erased the move and what happened on the way. Enter perpetual loop.
But since only the move action is undone, the only thing that changes is the movement of the scholar, so he is back into the hall but the door in front of him is shut and the room filling with water and he is still poisoned and hurt by that arrow. He could perhaps had undone the trap's action to shoot the poisoned arrow or that other trap's action of shutting the door and flooding the place, but although those happened because he moved there in the first place, only the movement is undone so he doesn't get to undo the effects of everyone's action in one go. Replace the trap by some dude activating them if trap actions cannot be undone. But he'll remember going there and that it was a terrible idea.
That example is already wrong because traps don't take actions in the first place, that with not being creatures and stuff. Otherwise you could undo the sun's own movement.

And yes, if you did undo the movement, the trap wouldn't have triggered and the scholar won't have a poisoned ass. The maneuver even mentions "all evidence mysteriously vanishes" and "Damage inflicted is healed, status effects are removed, creatures return to their previous positions. " The reason it doesn't end in a perpetual loop are two:
-Time is still passing. So if the scholar finds themselves back staring at the door and don't remember anything, they should start getting suspicious that door is bad news.
-Butterfly effect. After enough loops, the scholar is bound to just go "don't feel like going through that door now" and pick something else.

If you retain full knowledge from erased actions, that's a lot more prone to abuse if you ask me.
Not to mention the headache of figuring out what gets cherry-pickling reversed or not. What if the scholar in your example had dropped a bomb inside or something? What if they were using some ability of their own that triggers while moving?

Likewise, undoing the chronosphere's activation returns the character back in the present but doesn't cancel everything that happened in that alternate dimension where some bloke appeared, drank his ass off with his friends and mysteriously disappeared.

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The player can't actually act until their turn in the time sequence arrives, which will be days of in-game time.
Past-Old History doesn't mind that detail. Only that he was there and nobody in the present has any proof to the contrary that he got to do stuff in that past-future.
Except it's not the past. It's the future, and the maneuver specifically mentions it only works for actions that could be taken in the past. Even from the character's own perspective what will happen in a bunch of days is the future.

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Just like somebody affected by Time Hop simply doesn't get to act until the turn timer catches up with them. I made it a time scale of days so the party can just timeskip a month or so. Not the end of the world. Longer times have been spent finding resources for ressurecting somebody when nobody on the party can do it.
Time Hop however clearly states that the affected character is gone and reappears when the power ends. It has a duration. If you want this to be instantaneous those affected aren't simply waiting for the 1d100 days to go by but instantly act in their own timeline 1d100 days later.
That would be a bit hard since first the rest of the party need to decide what to do for the next 1d100 days to know what the character sent to the future now knows.

If the duration is 1d100 days, it could indeed works as Time Hop though it should keep the same kind of clarification as to what exactly happens mechanically. The buffs of the affected character are on pause during the temporal journey and do not expire or similar.
Well since it's not a duration but a time displacement, there's no need. The character was at time A. Now they're at time B. Just like teleport moves you from place A to place B.

But as for spending time to resurrect people and such, 1d100 days of game time can pretty much mean game over. Just in our campaign we've spent about 2 game days over several years. How long is a player on the bench for 1d100 days? He's just rolling a new character and that's that. By the time the character is back in the present the player will probably have entirely forgotten about it. If the player is still alive.
Any character who can't at least lay low and survive by themselves for some days had no business adventuring in the first place and should indeed be retired.

Anyway reviewing the campaign so far, the only chances it could've happened to the party were in the battle outside the dome and outside the colony ship where the only mecha-less people were fighting for only 1-2. And they have great saves.

Anyway. All that to say that any time-based effect going beyond X-Y rounds is probably not such a good idea. Minutes or a day at best and that would be pretty darn epic.
Even Mass Time Hop affects only the willing. And isn't available starting level 1.
Being chopped to pieces and remains burned is available at level 1. You don't see anyone complaing how hard it's to get back from that at that level, right?

But ok, reducing it to minutes is a good compromise.

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #631 on: March 04, 2017, 03:08:33 AM »
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It's instantaneous in the temporal scale just like teleport is instantenous in the physical scale.
And if you teleport a distance that would take you 7 days to reach on foot, the character hasn't magically lost 7 days of real time by teleporting......


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Saying that effect durations are based on the character's perception is a massive broken can of worms and you don't need chronospheres at all to break it in a million pieces. You could just go "lalalala, man I'm bored, time's passing super slow for me, so my temporary buffs last forever from my perspective!" or "lalala time goes so fast, hey that stun already wore out from my perspective!".

If the temporal shift happened at 12 pm of Saturday 1st of March, it happened at 12 pm of saturday 1st of March, and a character temporally displaced to 12pm of the 29th of March is now 28x24x60x10 rounds after.

Yanno what you're saying here means that when the character reappears after using that ability, not only would their buffs have expired but they'd have died from Thirst and/or Starvation 28 days ago......
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #632 on: March 04, 2017, 05:34:37 AM »
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It's instantaneous in the temporal scale just like teleport is instantenous in the physical scale.
And if you teleport a distance that would take you 7 days to reach on foot, the character hasn't magically lost 7 days of real time by teleporting......
No, but you'll miss any and all treasure/plot between those points.  :p

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Saying that effect durations are based on the character's perception is a massive broken can of worms and you don't need chronospheres at all to break it in a million pieces. You could just go "lalalala, man I'm bored, time's passing super slow for me, so my temporary buffs last forever from my perspective!" or "lalala time goes so fast, hey that stun already wore out from my perspective!".

If the temporal shift happened at 12 pm of Saturday 1st of March, it happened at 12 pm of saturday 1st of March, and a character temporally displaced to 12pm of the 29th of March is now 28x24x60x10 rounds after.

Yanno what you're saying here means that when the character reappears after using that ability, not only would their buffs have expired but they'd have died from Thirst and/or Starvation 28 days ago......
(click to show/hide)
Fun fact, starvation rules in D&D can't actually kill you, they just keep piling up nonlethal damage.

However that wouldn't be a matter here since as teleport doesn't tire you as if you had walked all the distance (nor burn you if you went through lava nor drown you if you went through water), what's temporally between point A and B in time doesn't matter either for one shifted by the chronosphere.

More of a curiosity now however since now the shift is only in minutes.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #633 on: March 05, 2017, 02:01:47 AM »
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Saying that effect durations are based on the character's perception is a massive broken can of worms and you don't need chronospheres at all to break it in a million pieces.
Not talking about fluff perspective but literally. Mechanically. The character doesn't experience the skipped time. He doesn't even exist in between (not counting possible multiple existences and existence beyond time) and just goes right to X time in the future as if the previous round was X time -1 round and for that character that is true in every way. If he is transported through time, time passes without him and so the actual effects of the passage of time cannot affect him. But I get your point as I'm sure you do mine.

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That example is already wrong because traps don't take actions in the first place
Hence why I said you can replace the traps by people spending actions to activate the effects.

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And yes, if you did undo the movement, the trap wouldn't have triggered and the scholar won't have a poisoned ass. The maneuver even mentions "all evidence mysteriously vanishes" and "Damage inflicted is healed, status effects are removed, creatures return to their previous positions. "
I'll take note of that. Still applies against someone that would have taken an AoO to make a poisoned attack in response to that movement and so on?
Though, as to that particular maneuvers, what you quoted is the fluff text. What effectively happens is that "the effects of the chosen action are reversed. Damage inflicted is healed, status effects are removed, creatures return to their previous positions". In the example, the effect of the movement is movement, and this is what is being reversed. The poisoning and other stuff happened in consequence to it, but they weren't the effect of the movement itself.
If you rule that it cancels everything that relied on the canceled action to happen, then all right. Just noting that the way the effect is described it seems to only reverse the canceled action. Not the others that weren't chosen to be canceled.

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Any character who can't at least lay low and survive by themselves for some days had no business adventuring in the first place and should indeed be retired.
I don't see it the connection. That's rather hard to do when you are before 4th level and got a redeeming quest to get through to get your mecha back. Or when your mecha is just too big to go somewhere you have to go.

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Anyway reviewing the campaign so far, the only chances it could've happened to the party were in the battle outside the dome and outside the colony ship where the only mecha-less people were fighting for only 1-2. And they have great saves.
Amaterasu was without a mecha for pretty much the entire period on Ragol though now that a lower mecha can be acquired until the redeeming quest is complete, it isn't has harsh. Almost the entire party was without a mecha during at the spa trip. In swimsuits, no fights, but there could have been unless there is a narrative law that ensures there is never trouble during a beach party. Good saves help but this can be done at level 1. Get 50+ of those, give them the coordinates to spam it at and someone's gonna roll a natural 1 eventually. The Protectora could be full of those guys ready to focus fire enemies, keep a list of dates and targets currently on their future-travel queue and all ready an action to mass-spam them as soon as they are back to keep enemies permanently in the future. That's a new concept for a prison.
Being chopped to pieces and burning remains doesn't normally require epic spells/very high level psionics to pull off. Minutes is still OP considering this is Time Hop on crack, but a lot less worse, even with a prep round and cooldown to offset the infinite uses per day. Thanks.
The clause about it counting as a full+standard for effects is weird and can give rise to questions about how it works that aren't related to the original intention. The kind weirdness that feels that you're trying to stop something but you're not fixing the right thing, which opens the door to other stuff. For example, imagine an ability that allows you to cancel an action and get the actions used back (not saying there is one, but with the stuff that keeps popping up in these homebrews we can expect similar issues); you'd activate it with a standard, buy it back to gain an extra fullround action.
Personally I don't care either way. Just giving my impressions.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 02:16:41 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #634 on: March 05, 2017, 02:39:23 AM »
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And yes, if you did undo the movement, the trap wouldn't have triggered and the scholar won't have a poisoned ass. The maneuver even mentions "all evidence mysteriously vanishes" and "Damage inflicted is healed, status effects are removed, creatures return to their previous positions. "
I'll take note of that. Still applies against someone that would have taken an AoO to make a poisoned attack in response to that movement and so on?
Though, as to that particular maneuvers, what you quoted is the fluff text. What effectively happens is that "the effects of the chosen action are reversed. Damage inflicted is healed, status effects are removed, creatures return to their previous positions". In the example, the effect of the movement is movement, and this is what is being reversed. The poisoning and other stuff happened in consequence to it, but they weren't the effect of the movement itself.
If you rule that it cancels everything that relied on the canceled action to happen, then all right. Just noting that the way the effect is described it seems to only reverse the canceled action. Not the others that weren't chosen to be canceled.
You're still claiming traps take actions. You're saying that 2+2=5 so radioactive bananas.

So let's consider another example.
Somebody uses a scroll of fireball to burn down an orphanage along the orhans inside.
The scroll didn't take an action.
The fireball didn't take an action.
The orphanage burning didn't take actions.
The orphans burning didn't take actions.

By your radioactive bananas, reversing the action of the guy using the scroll accomplishes absolutely nothing, and the orphanage and orphans are still left burned to a crisp.


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Any character who can't at least lay low and survive by themselves for some days had no business adventuring in the first place and should indeed be retired.
I don't see it the connection. That's rather hard to do when you are before 4th level and got a redeeming quest to get through to get your mecha back. Or when your mecha is just too big to go somewhere you have to go.

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Anyway reviewing the campaign so far, the only chances it could've happened to the party were in the battle outside the dome and outside the colony ship where the only mecha-less people were fighting for only 1-2. And they have great saves.
Amaterasu was without a mecha for pretty much the entire period on Ragol though now that a lower mecha can be acquired until the redeeming quest is complete, it isn't has harsh. Almost the entire party was without a mecha during at the spa trip. In swimsuits, no fights, but there could have been unless there is a narrative law that ensures there is never trouble during a beach party. Good saves help but this can be done at level 1. Get 50+ of those, give them the coordinates to spam it at and someone's gonna roll a natural 1 eventually. The Protectora could be full of those guys ready to focus fire enemies, keep a list of dates and targets currently on their future-travel queue and all ready an action to mass-spam them as soon as they are back to keep enemies permanently in the future. That's a new concept for a prison.
I guess that since you keep missing the part where traps don't have actions of their own, I can forgive you for missing the "Super Weapons don't demand line of sight or effect, but they demand you to be in an open space (open skies/seas/void) to use them." bit. So no, you can't just load 50+ support staff inside a container/ship for super weapon spam, and if you're inside a big building yourself, you're pretty safe too.

And before you bring your "what about my uber camera network with zero lag and full universal coverage?", again that's why there's jammers and anti-radar and whatnot.


Being chopped to pieces and burning remains doesn't normally require epic spells/very high level psionics to pull off. Minutes is still OP considering this is Time Hop on crack, but a lot less worse, even with a prep round and cooldown to offset the infinite uses per day. Thanks.
The clause about it counting as a full+standard for effects is weird and can give rise to questions about how it works that aren't related to the original intention. The kind weirdness that feels that you're trying to stop something but you're not fixing the right thing, which opens the door to other stuff. For example, imagine an ability that allows you to cancel an action and get the actions used back (not saying there is one, but with the stuff that keeps popping up in these homebrews we can expect similar issues); you'd activate it with a standard, buy it back to gain an extra fullround action.
Personally I don't care either way. Just giving my impressions.
You're giving me the impression your ability to bring up relevant examples is degenerating at a speed faster than light itself.

Since the hypothetical ability you just described would be beyond borked by itself as it's a one step infinite loop.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 02:50:06 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #635 on: March 05, 2017, 02:46:27 AM »
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You're still claiming traps take actions. You're saying that 2+2=5 so radioactive bananas.
No. As I said twice now, just replace them with people spending actions to do the same thing.

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I guess that since you keep missing the part where traps
You keep missing the part where you can just replace them by people.
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I can forgive you for missing the "Super Weapons don't demand line of sight or effect
I didn't. That is precisely why a bunch of them can be kept somewhere to spam on command. The ship can keep an open hatch for them. The target being inside a building doesn't help because it ignores line of effect.

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You're giving me the impression your ability to bring up relevant examples is degenerating at a speed faster than light itself.
I'll take nonsense talk as unwillingness to answer. If you don't care about it then let's just leave it be and we'll see how it goes in-game.


Edit: Oh, you put more in there. Let's see.
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So let's consider another example.
Somebody uses a scroll of fireball to burn down an orphanage along the orhans inside.
The scroll didn't take an action.
The fireball didn't take an action.
The orphanage burning didn't take actions.
The orphans burning didn't take actions.
The scroll didn't use itself. The fireball is the effect of the action and the building burning is the damage of the fireball, which is the effect of the action negated and is all part of what the fireball itself does. So far so good.
If someone gets an AoO against the scroll reader and hits him but doesn't manage to break his concentration and use the scroll, negating the action to activate the scroll removes the effect of activating the scroll aka fireball that burns the orphanage. Are you intending this to also cancel the AoO even though that action isn't the one chosen to be negated and that it isn't the effect of the negated action? Because cancelling your own actions will not require an enemy failing a save and that way you cancel their actions anyway without one. Was that intended? Because when I read that only the effect of the negated action is negated, it doesn't seem to include the effects of other actions that weren't chosen to negated. The fluff of the maneuvers implies everything is canceled, but the text of the effect makes it feel like it doesn't go beyond the negated action itself. That's all.
It can go further. Because the orphanage was burning, someone else applied a water spell to quench the fire that now got negated. Is that caster getting his water spell use back since he never had to cast it in the first place because now there wasn't any fire to quench?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 03:08:50 AM by Anomander »

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #636 on: March 05, 2017, 11:00:12 PM »
So, today we put a player character HEATS combiner into play. Overall, it was a lot of fun, but also quite overpowered. One of the pilots was a Ship Captain with Humongous Ship, and another one was a Super Robot. The result was Colossal+2. Due to the way weapon size scaling works, there are dozens of bonus d6s of damage going around, especially on the Heavy weapons and Main Weapon. The multiple spirit pools means it’s easy to afford to Strike every turn, though given multi-pilot machines in SRW games, this is probably working as intended.

The EN cost wasn’t really an impediment. At 170 EN, using a Study Type Propelant [sic] each turn easily kept us ahead of the 20EN cost per turn. In order to mitigate this to some extent, one player suggests increasing the beginning and end of turn EN cost as size increases. For example, maybe 10 + 1 point for each size above Large, so our C++ combiner would need to spend 15EN at the start and end of each turn. A more aggressive change would be to make the EN cost scale the same way bonus damage dice from size do. In that situation the beginning and end of turn EN costs could be:
table]
 
Combiner SizeEN Cost (Paid at Start and End of Turn)
Medium10 EN
Large11 EN
Huge12 EN
Gargantuan14 EN
Colossal16 EN
C+19 EN
C++23 EN
C+328 EN
C+434 EN

It may also be necessary to nerf the weapon size scaling off the high end of the chart. The core of the chart seems fine. Multiple component units in our combiner started at Medium size, so they gained 1d6 moving from M to L and L to H, then two dice moving from H to G and G to C. So far, only a little worrisome: +6d6 by moving from M to C. Our group's understanding of the size chart after Colossal is that each further size step cumulatively increases weapon damage dice by (2+number of steps beyond Colossal)d6. This means that every additional point of growth beyond Colossal yields ever-increasing dividends. Increasing size from C to C+ adds 3d6 from size scaling, which is a 50% increase compared to the total of all previous size increases up to this point and brings the subtotal up to +9d6. This still isn't so bad, since 9d6 is the same kind of damage output you'd expect from a full spellcaster at our level. But we're C++, which means there's another 4d6 for increasing size from C+ to C++, bringing us to a subtotal of 13d6, which is definitely beyond the power curve.

This size was achieved via fusion with a battleship starting at Colossal and with the Humongous Ship feat. (Please don't remove the ability of Ship Captain to take HEATS, as this has been seen in wonderful cases such as the King J-Der and Hyper Galaxy Gurren Lagann.) Further size increase can be obtained by spending the Super Robot Upgrade points granted by HEATS. We're level 9, so we could increase two steps further through Growth, increasing first by 5d6 (to +18d6), then 6d6 (to +24d6). While dealing that kind of damage is fun, it's far too much for a standard attack at Level 9. A possible way to fix this would be removing the feature allowing a Ship Captain to get a Colossal Battleship for free, restricting them to Huge by default.

In addition, due to the fact that it got to use all the hardpoints of the constituent units, and one of them was a Mecha Engineer Prototype, it had 13 hardpoints. This means the combiner can take a majority of all Arsenal level 1 and 2 accessories and have space for Study Type Propelants [sic] left over. This could just as easily get out of hand merely by having a large number of units combine. Maybe the combined number of Hardpoints should be the highest number among the components (like EN) rather than a sum (like HP)?

Summary of suggestions:
Increase beginning and end of turn EN cost to 10 + 1 point per size over Large or to the same rate as size bonus damage dice
Reduce the number of additional damage dice awarded for sizes above Colossal
Remove ability for Ship Captain to get a Colossal Battleship for free
Only let a combiner have as many hardpoints as the component with the most hardpoints, instead of the total of all components

In summary, we had a lot of fun. Due to size scaling being so effective, we were so powerful that none could oppose us, and the mechanics intended to rein in combination abuse were too ineffective to be relevant.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #637 on: March 06, 2017, 12:53:16 AM »
I like those suggestions. There is also what may perhaps strike as the first obvious solution to the EN costs in having a pilot with Ship Captain spirits simply cast Resupply on the combined mecha to restore its energy. It may give half full EN instead of full since combined mechas get half energy recoveries but the rate it goes and the time it takes to recover 50 sp a combined mecha could go on forever. Another way to ensure it eventually takes too much energy to keep going if that was what was intended is to make the energy cost per round increase each round. Eventually it is bound to end. Otherwise the energy cost becomes the goal of how much recovery is needed to keep it going forever, which isn't a problem if the intent is not to force it to end after a while but simply limit what it can accomplish by having less energy left to do stuff.

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #638 on: March 06, 2017, 02:47:33 AM »
Summary of suggestions:
Increase beginning and end of turn EN cost to 10 + 1 point per size over Large or to the same rate as size bonus damage dice
Reduce the number of additional damage dice awarded for sizes above Colossal
Remove ability for Ship Captain to get a Colossal Battleship for free
Only let a combiner have as many hardpoints as the component with the most hardpoints, instead of the total of all components
-Increased energy cost to (10+X+Y^2) where X is the number of rounds the combined robot has been active and Y is the number of size categories you're above medium. At C+4 that should be 74 energy at start and end of turn.
-Changed damage die for size scaling above colossal to  (2+(X/2))d6 dmg, where X is the number of sizes you're bigger than colossal, rounded down.
-Colossal battleships are staying, I'm making the other nerfs harder and I intend for massive ships to don't take that much resources to obtain. In particular the exponential energy raise on energy cost should make people pause before going for biggest size ASAP.
-Combined robot now only gets the lowest arsenal and hardpoint values among its component members.

Thanks for the report and suggestions!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 02:51:39 AM by oslecamo »

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #639 on: March 06, 2017, 05:00:25 AM »
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-Combined robot now only gets the lowest arsenal and hardpoint values among its component members.

I feel like that's pretty harsh as not everybody in the combined mech may be running a build speccing for arsenal and/or hardpoints/accessories. But at the same time I do like it, but more as a starting point to work off of. Afterall, a combined mecha is obviously bigger and thus has more space to be carrying stuff than an uncombined mecha. So something along the lines of exactly the nerf you proposed but with a bonus to arsenal/hardpoints based on the new size category of the combined mecha? Gaining access to new weapons and stuff is kinda a 'thing' when smaller mechs combine into bigger mechs in media, no? So it'd be something like enough points to grab like 1 extra arsenal weapon of average cost in arsenal points per size category gained? Or banking together the gains from multiple size category jumps to gain a really big arsenal weapon.

I dunno. Stuff or something........ :huh