Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 247266 times)

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #680 on: March 27, 2017, 01:48:07 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 01:53:01 AM by Anomander »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #681 on: March 29, 2017, 05:37:28 PM »
Perhaps, I don't remember it. I only remember changing weapons to the strongest one I had among those whose playstyle I felt most comfortable with.
That's because that's how games work. "Artistic" swapping but that is first and foremost, as well as exclusively, a player-oriented penalty. Intelligent discussion admits that every player will mitigate it, hence why for as much as Osl complains about it he has in turn resorted to bribing people into using volatile weapons by buffing their damage rates to be higher than any other none-volatile weapon. And all that's really done is made an even larger case of how fights come down to which glass cannon wins initiative.



In other news, @Ckirk I revamped the Magitech Knight thread here in SWR to simply contain the differences rather than the entirely of the main post to make it easier in updating, balancing, and adding new content. But the third post will still contain some more anime themed ACFs as I get them wrote similar to how how I've added tweaks to better aim for Warhammer 40k's Space Marines, Power Rangers & their Zords, Bioshock's Big Daddies, and even larger scale RTS support for military campaigns like Drammor's. I've just been too busy playing Dawn of War instead of writing homebrew to finish things.

Speaking of, here's Osl chance to complain again. This is a SWR-scaled lv6 that used the Space Marine ACF to trade spellcasting for double the upgrade points using a newly implemented Twinned option for damage instead of the boring +dexmod & 1/2 level to damage addition I was using before.
Space Marine (human imperium marine 6)
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid[human] (mech large)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Initiative: +3 (mech +6).
Speed: 30 ft (mech 20ft).
------------------------------
Hit Dice: 6d6+18 (41hp, mech 116 hp)
Abilities (pb32): Str 14/18 (+2/+4), Dex 16/22 (+3/+6), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 14 (+2).
Armor Class: 13 (+3 dex), touch 13, flat 10. (mech 26, t18f20).
Saves: Fort 5 (+9/+11), Ref 2 (+5/+10), Will 5 (+5/+7).
Special Defenses: (mech DR 26/-, resist energy 6, fortification 25%).
------------------------------
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+8 (mech +14)
Attack: Beretta 92F +10/+5 ranged (2d6+4 piercing)*
Mech Attack: slam +12 melee (1d6+6 bludgeoning) or Quad T-95 Cavalcade +14/+9 ranged (10d6 piercing) or other (see upgrades) or 2rnds/day Twinned Magebane CA[Chainsaw Sword] +12/+6 melee (12d6+14 slashing)
------------------------------
Other: Spirit (60pts, +10/rnd, guard & alert known), 12 hybrid points per day.
Feats: Murky-Eyed, Advanced Firearms Proficiency, Point Blank Shot, Spirit Regen, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot.
Skills: Balance 4.5 (+9), Craft[any] 9 (+11), Spot 9 (+11/+15), Survival 9 (+11).
Upgrades: Heavy Assault Design, Adamantine Fasteners, Vanadium Plating, Duralloy Armor, Class 2 Sensor, Oracle Targeting System x2, Deflection Field x2, Delphi Defense x2, Energy Shields x3, Light Fortification, Life Support, Dexterity Booster x2, Structural Enhancement x4, Twinned T-95 Cavalcade Chaingun, and (Quad Variable-Charge Energy Cannon or Twinned M-87 Talon Missile Launcher x2 or Quad IC-6 Subduer Ion Cannon).
Equipment (WBL 13k): Basic(6gp), Masterwork Tools x4 (200gp), Amulet of Health +2 (4k).


For a quick reference, which is all I've done so far for balance checking, a Super with Growth, Plating x4, Main x3, and Soul of the Machine x2 which accounts for 41% of it's upgrades comes out to having 105hp, 18 DR, 18+Dex AC (plus can still get armor), 58 spirit & +12/rnd with the feat but only knows one Spirit instead of two, and assuming 18 Str has +10/+5 melee (1d10+6d6+8) using it's built-in weaponry. Excluding DR Super clocks in at 69/rnd and mine is 60/rnd without using Rapid Shot. So currently mine has a bit over the in a few areas but the said Super isn't fully stated if anyone wants to offer some useful data. If you want to build off this quick example I used, it has 14 upgrade points left, 6 maneuvers, 3 stances, and 4 arsenal points open plus of course the actual character left to add still.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 08:44:51 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #682 on: March 29, 2017, 11:13:18 PM »
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Aerial Shooting: Sounds like the regular jump n' shoot. Coulda been a boost. Like Martial Machine, does it negate the attack for moving out of range/breaking LoE? Same question for any other counter that makes you move in response to an attack.
Yes.
I expressed myself poorly on that one. I meant "since Martial Machine that gives you movement with the counter do not cancel the attack that provoked the counter (unless a change in AC is above the attack roll or killing the target or similar; stuff not linked to the movement itself), were these Gun Maniac movement granting counters doing the same". Though if you mean for those counters' movement to be able to cancel the attack for moving out of range, then that answers the question all the same.
Ah, I see. The movement by itself is not supposed to cancel the attack.

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Chain Trigger: The bonus per chain is big and pretty much never ends unless you leave the stance for some reason, which means it keeps getting bigger if you fight the same enemy over multiple encounters. As per the original, it should only affect the user and not allies and should probably end as soon as you attack any other target (unless perhaps if you're using an AoE that includes a chained target). The bonus wasn't all that amazing in-game either until you used a finisher (strike) for strong bonus damage. And the chain is only from regular attacks.
True, but I wanted to make it more interesting than just moar raw damage.
Well... right now it is moar damage. So much it gets hard to beat. For you and all your allies. There is no special mechanic to have it applied since it applies against everyone forever until you change stance. I'd expect the bonus to last just one round even if it was only affecting the user, especially given how fast it can stack with itself and there being no maximum. Most of the +dmg stances give a bonus of about +PL in damage per attack and about half that to attack rolls if any. At PL 15 you hit thrice and you already reach a strong zone even if it only affect you with that one weapon.
And hitting only gets easier since it cranks up the attack bonus as well. Sure, the bonus farming is limited to a single weapon, but the bonus itself applies to every weapon, same for your allies, so they can all do a 15+weapons special fullattack with the bonus to everything.
Removed the bonus to attack rolls, kinda good enough already as it is.

Also yes, technically "only" damage, but benefits the whole party instead of just the initiator.

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As long as you can afford the ammo/energy.
Sure. Lots of ranged weapons don't cost all that much energy. Especially the built-in ones.
Yeah there seem to be some leftovers from the old energy system, gotta go around to fix those.

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It can also receive additional boosts on the following rounds. How does it behave when that next attack is applying to an area or if it is something like, say, a single attack that attacks every enemy within range? Do you get an area of bullets moving around or in the later case pretty much one bullet for every space within range going around attacking stuff with a move/swift action?
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Unless you have a way to extend the secondary boost's duration, it does not carry over. Each round is "fresh".
I know. Just saying you can apply boosts to the shot after the round it's been fired. I was mostly concerned about this applying to area weapons and multi-target "single shots".
Yes, it would get multiple bullets in those cases.

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Shift Period: Maybe there is something subtle I'm missing but how is that not just making the user invulnerable every turn forever? While attacking all enemies no less.
Energy for using the maneuver plus ammo/energy.
Added to the initial clause that the maneuvers demand weapons with ammo/energy and if you don't have enough to fire you can't use the maneuver even if you wanted the secondary effects.
Considering some weapons don't cost much energy, it easily turns into an objective of simply getting enough energy recovery each round to compensate for the use of the maneuver and the shots. There's a bunch of ways to pull that off. Just the arsenal options offer Reactor 4, %energy savings for maneuvers and extra energy battery. Many built-in ranged weapons cost only 5 EN per shot. The Boxer model offers a 2 EN shot weapon.

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Or you set up a situation where you have a readied attack keyed to when the opponent tries to use Shift Period.
I don't see how this helps. It isn't something you can disrupt like a spell and even if you're hit, the maneuver is triggered to prevent harm and you're invulnerable. Assuming the target isn't invulnerable permanently anyway since it can be triggered during his own turn by having something automatically harm it each round. There are other maneuvers. Add a spammed Alert on top for good measure and ready your own action since your counter allows you to make attacks anyway.
Since mecha maneuvers are not expended and can be spammed if you've got the energy, you can also initiate it again in response to a readied attack.
Eeerrr, normally you only get one Immediate action per turn.

Anyway. Only point I wanted to make is that this is spammable invulnerability. No cooldown or nothin'. You already made other invulnerability tricks and they aren't as easy to abuse as this one.
But you're correct, it's still too spammable, so changed it so that you need to spend 2x ammo/energy per source of harm and the final twin-linked burst demands extra cost.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #683 on: March 30, 2017, 01:01:47 PM »
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Yes, it would get multiple bullets in those cases.
In the case of an attack that attacked multiple targets with a single attack roll without being an area weapon, would each of those bullets require a bullet/Energy cost to keep going afterwards? How does that work?
Or the very same attack keeps repeating itself as if you were at any one of the targets of that attack? Since the repeating attack on following rounds are 'new' does it revert to a single bullet on the next round if the initial attack had multiple targets thanks to a Boost or other special ability? (wondering since you already confirmed a boost doesn't apply on the next turn unless you use the boost again, in which case it would likely make sense that the multiple bullets would only be sustained for as long as you keep using the boost/special ability for their attack each round).

As to the Chain Trigger stance, I think there should be at least one other means to reset the chain counter to prevent the bonus to damage everyone gets to stack way out of proportion and apply forever and to actually give you a reason to use another stance someday.
Even Ancient Temple's Slash of Eternity ends if you miss three attacks in a row. It could also reset after a long enough period of time passes without you nor any ally hitting the target.
It is weird otherwise and really doesn't feel like a chain attack.

Showtime Star
While I'm looking at that discipline, I'd like to confirm something was/wasn't intended. Toughness Time and One More Time can be triggered every round after they get triggered once. Here's an example:
Round 1: Riffle maneuver used.
Round 2: Launcher maneuver used. *not a Riffle maneuver = Toughness Time~
Round 3: Twin Guns maneuver used. *not a Riffle nor Launcher maneuver = One More Time~
alt Round 3: Riffle maneuver used. *not a Launcher maneuver = Toughness Time~
Round 4: Riffle maneuver used. *not a Launcher nor Twin Guns maneuver = One More Time~
Round 5: Launcher maneuver used. *not a Twin Guns nor Riffle maneuver = One More Time~

Also, when it requires that only one R/L/TG maneuver be used per round, while it does allow for maneuvers of another discipline to be used along with those without breaking the sequence, what about Gun Maniac stances?
While being stances, they are also maneuvers so technically if you use a Gun Maniac stance during the sequence you cannot use another Gun Maniac maneuver without breaking it. If that is so, what of the stances that have more than one type (say, Launcher+Riffle). As with Trinity learning requirements, you choose which one applies?

Support Machine Minions
I recognize the machine mistress robots. :)
Before looking at most of the stuff that concerns them (most of the accessories being strikenthrough, perhaps by mistake), I'll note that the Mass Minions pick sort of has the Minion Machine pick as a requirement. The same way Mega Minion requires both to do anything. But Mass Minions cap at 19 picks? How to even get 19 picks? The class offers 13 and you need to spend one on Minion Machine, which makes it cap at 12 picks by default at level 18, which means Mega Minion has 11 picks of Mass Minion to merge maximum.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 11:48:25 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #684 on: April 02, 2017, 03:26:26 AM »
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Yes, it would get multiple bullets in those cases.
In the case of an attack that attacked multiple targets with a single attack roll without being an area weapon, would each of those bullets require a bullet/Energy cost to keep going afterwards? How does that work?
Or the very same attack keeps repeating itself as if you were at any one of the targets of that attack? Since the repeating attack on following rounds are 'new' does it revert to a single bullet on the next round if the initial attack had multiple targets thanks to a Boost or other special ability? (wondering since you already confirmed a boost doesn't apply on the next turn unless you use the boost again, in which case it would likely make sense that the multiple bullets would only be sustained for as long as you keep using the boost/special ability for their attack each round).
If you can normally attack multiple targets with a single bullet/energy cost, then you pay as normal.
Added clause that new attacks come from a single position even if you had harea/multi-target.

As to the Chain Trigger stance, I think there should be at least one other means to reset the chain counter to prevent the bonus to damage everyone gets to stack way out of proportion and apply forever and to actually give you a reason to use another stance someday.
Even Ancient Temple's Slash of Eternity ends if you miss three attacks in a row. It could also reset after a long enough period of time passes without you nor any ally hitting the target.
It is weird otherwise and really doesn't feel like a chain attack.
Ok, made Chain Counters reduce by 1 at the start of enemy round.

Showtime Star
While I'm looking at that discipline, I'd like to confirm something was/wasn't intended. Toughness Time and One More Time can be triggered every round after they get triggered once. Here's an example:
Round 1: Riffle maneuver used.
Round 2: Launcher maneuver used. *not a Riffle maneuver = Toughness Time~
Round 3: Twin Guns maneuver used. *not a Riffle nor Launcher maneuver = One More Time~
alt Round 3: Riffle maneuver used. *not a Launcher maneuver = Toughness Time~
Round 4: Riffle maneuver used. *not a Launcher nor Twin Guns maneuver = One More Time~
Round 5: Launcher maneuver used. *not a Twin Guns nor Riffle maneuver = One More Time~
That alt round 3 isn't possible since you need to use the third type of maneuver.

You could go rifle-launcher-twin guns or any other sequence where you keep switching weapons, in which case yes you can keep chaining them.

Also, when it requires that only one R/L/TG maneuver be used per round, while it does allow for maneuvers of another discipline to be used along with those without breaking the sequence, what about Gun Maniac stances?
While being stances, they are also maneuvers so technically if you use a Gun Maniac stance during the sequence you cannot use another Gun Maniac maneuver without breaking it. If that is so, what of the stances that have more than one type (say, Launcher+Riffle). As with Trinity learning requirements, you choose which one applies?
Stances would only count if you enter them.
They would count as all their types so cannot trigger One More time.

Support Machine Minions
I recognize the machine mistress robots. :)
Yay, somebody remembers that!

Before looking at most of the stuff that concerns them (most of the accessories being strikenthrough, perhaps by mistake), I'll note that the Mass Minions pick sort of has the Minion Machine pick as a requirement. The same way Mega Minion requires both to do anything. But Mass Minions cap at 19 picks? How to even get 19 picks? The class offers 13 and you need to spend one on Minion Machine, which makes it cap at 12 picks by default at level 18, which means Mega Minion has 11 picks of Mass Minion to merge maximum.
Good point, shuffled around the minion numbers to smooth up the progression.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #685 on: April 02, 2017, 09:46:22 AM »
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Ok, made Chain Counters reduce by 1 at the start of enemy round.
Hm. If you ever get to play that stance in-game maybe you'll see what I mean. The reset is slow and very forgiving but at least there is one. The stance is easier to deal with, however, when those it is being used against realize what the stance is doing and that it is linked to a specific weapon.

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That alt round 3 isn't possible since you need to use the third type of maneuver.
It is if all you want is to loop Riffle/Launcher for Toughness Time and forget about One More Time. The Alt Round 3 doesn't go to round 4, it loops back to round 2. I should have mentioned that. It's what I meant when I said you could trigger Toughness Time every round.

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Stances would only count if you enter them.
Aye, that's what I meant. Only the initiation itself would count, not merely being under one.

Thank you for the answers.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #686 on: April 05, 2017, 03:04:41 AM »
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Ok, made Chain Counters reduce by 1 at the start of enemy round.
Hm. If you ever get to play that stance in-game maybe you'll see what I mean. The reset is slow and very forgiving but at least there is one. The stance is easier to deal with, however, when those it is being used against realize what the stance is doing and that it is linked to a specific weapon.
Nerfed it some more, now only the chosen weapon gains the damage benfit, and allies must choose a weapon to benefit as well.

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That alt round 3 isn't possible since you need to use the third type of maneuver.
It is if all you want is to loop Riffle/Launcher for Toughness Time and forget about One More Time. The Alt Round 3 doesn't go to round 4, it loops back to round 2. I should have mentioned that. It's what I meant when I said you could trigger Toughness Time every round.
I'm fine with that. Still switching weapons to some degree.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #687 on: April 06, 2017, 10:00:41 PM »
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I'm fine with that. Still switching weapons to some degree.
Sort of, since mechas have all their weapons equipped by default and don't actually switch anything. Many maneuvers do not require actually using a different weapon either but I get the spirit of the thing.

Medic Support

Drugs- So, who actually gets the permanent hp damage? The mecha or the pilot? Because you are essentially (usually) shooting giant needles through a cockpit into a tiny body. Maybe injecting the creature with way more than its entire volume in liquid.

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Brainwash-With 1d12 hours of work on an helpless or willing subject (even unorganic ones)
Kinda weird that a recovering brainwashed creature would go on revenge quests against the medic when they were willing to be brainwashed to begin with.
Though if they cancel the brainshed effect with a status-effect negating ability it may cancel the whole thing, revenge quests included.
Also, may want a cap on the picks on this one. Makes a pretty massive amount of bonus feats and technically the Medic could brainwash himself. A common practice.

Direct Link- Looks like something that thematically would work nicely on inorganics. If not actually make more sense. Even if applied on an Android using One with the Machine it makes it just as dangerous since they both eat the damage and if the android wishes to end the effect he eats even more.

We Can Rebuild Them: That one often happens in a similar fashion as well except the new creature is a construct instead of a living monster. Although they can still indeed get construct monster levels if they keep their original living creature type instead of switching to construct. The fallen often returns as a mechanized version of itself. The way this ability works makes more sense in many cases than the Scientists' Mechanization.

Operation: I hope only different kinds of operations can stack together and not the same kind multiple times.

=====================

Something that may be interesting for the Support Staff is the ability to use his specialization abilities even without his mecha if he is working within his base or some special room designed to be his laboratory/workshop/clinic. The room would be equipped with all the special equipment he needs to do his stuff. It just makes sense.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 10:03:10 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #688 on: April 07, 2017, 07:27:35 AM »
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I'm fine with that. Still switching weapons to some degree.
Sort of, since mechas have all their weapons equipped by default and don't actually switch anything. Many maneuvers do not require actually using a different weapon either but I get the spirit of the thing.
You mean the spirit recovery? :p

Medic Support

Drugs- So, who actually gets the permanent hp damage? The mecha or the pilot? Because you are essentially (usually) shooting giant needles through a cockpit into a tiny body. Maybe injecting the creature with way more than its entire volume in liquid.
The target must be an organic creature so mechas don't really qualify. Any structural damage will be so minor to don't count like a mosquito's bite.

Also eyeballing the correct amount of stuff to inject in a patient is part of the training of any good medic.

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Brainwash-With 1d12 hours of work on an helpless or willing subject (even unorganic ones)
Kinda weird that a recovering brainwashed creature would go on revenge quests against the medic when they were willing to be brainwashed to begin with.
"I didn't know I would end like this! You lied to me! "
Nobody ever reads the secondary effects disclaimer properly.

Though if they cancel the brainshed effect with a status-effect negating ability it may cancel the whole thing, revenge quests included.
Added clause that they count as permanent for removal stuff.

Also, may want a cap on the picks on this one. Makes a pretty massive amount of bonus feats and technically the Medic could brainwash himself. A common practice.
Put limit on how many extra feats you can cram in somebody, allowed to stack standing for different creatures.

Direct Link- Looks like something that thematically would work nicely on inorganics. If not actually make more sense. Even if applied on an Android using One with the Machine it makes it just as dangerous since they both eat the damage and if the android wishes to end the effect he eats even more.
But part of the medic's charm is pushing puny organics beyond their limits.

We Can Rebuild Them: That one often happens in a similar fashion as well except the new creature is a construct instead of a living monster. Although they can still indeed get construct monster levels if they keep their original living creature type instead of switching to construct. The fallen often returns as a mechanized version of itself. The way this ability works makes more sense in many cases than the Scientists' Mechanization.
Mechanization is more about getting expendable mooks, while this is more for, well, rebuilding somebody. :P

Operation: I hope only different kinds of operations can stack together and not the same kind multiple times.
Ah, yes, forgot that clause, thanks. Also increased the HP cost.

=====================

Something that may be interesting for the Support Staff is the ability to use his specialization abilities even without his mecha if he is working within his base or some special room designed to be his laboratory/workshop/clinic. The room would be equipped with all the special equipment he needs to do his stuff. It just makes sense.
Indeed it does.

You know what doesn't make sense? Making humanoid giant robots when other forms would be much more cost-efficient.

So again the excuse is that it just happens that some new SCIENCE! revolution results in mechas being the most cost-efficient way of applying all this technology. No mecha, no super tech.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #689 on: April 08, 2017, 05:58:56 PM »
Added Velocity Assault Logical Kelvin Yggdrasil Rapid Insertion Engine (I).
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 06:01:13 PM by oslecamo »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #690 on: April 08, 2017, 05:59:11 PM »
Added Velocity Assault Logical Kelvin Yggdrasil Rapid Insertion Engine (II).

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #691 on: April 08, 2017, 05:59:56 PM »
Added Velocity Assault Logical Kelvin Yggdrasil Rapid Insertion Engine (III).

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #692 on: April 08, 2017, 06:00:12 PM »
Added Velocity Assault Logical Kelvin Yggdrasil Rapid Insertion Engine (IV).

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #693 on: April 08, 2017, 06:00:25 PM »
Added Velocity Assault Logical Kelvin Yggdrasil Rapid Insertion Engine (V).

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #694 on: April 08, 2017, 06:00:40 PM »
Added Velocity Assault Logical Kelvin Yggdrasil Rapid Insertion Engine(VI).

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #695 on: April 08, 2017, 06:00:53 PM »
Added Velocity Assault Logical Kelvin Yggdrasil Rapid Insertion Engine(VII).

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #696 on: April 08, 2017, 06:04:31 PM »
Fixed Federation Officer's sample NPC Blash eXperimental Hyper Bazooka-L-03/N-STD's attack bonus.

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #697 on: April 08, 2017, 06:44:06 PM »
Added Heat Axe.

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #698 on: April 08, 2017, 06:44:19 PM »
Added Heat Tomahawk.

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #699 on: April 08, 2017, 06:47:10 PM »
Added Heat Saber.