Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 247098 times)

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #380 on: October 18, 2016, 02:59:29 PM »
Smaller creatures aren't faster than bigger creatures so speed boosts for being smaller doesn't make much sense.

As for the melee vs. ranged stuff, unless it's a super special weapon system, most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable looks are generally won in melee in such shows.

That's my opinion *shrugs*

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #381 on: October 18, 2016, 08:27:17 PM »
No weapons (that I can see) have a damage type listed. What damage types are everything? (relevant for bypassing DR)
1. Echoing.
Added damage types across the boards.

2. Also as is there is no point in using Minimization. Perhaps Great Agility/Targeting should be adjusted to provide extra bonuses if you focus on being smaller. Arsenal also appears unaffected by changing you mech size, maybe in a way this avoids penalizing Miniaturization but then again Built-Ins are which forces the smaller mechs to use Arsenal which inevitably forces all small Mechs to rely on melee (see below) where they will auto-fail opposing Grapple Checks which presumably disables use of their Arsenal and rely on their inferior Built-Ins for one sided battles.
Added arsenal size scaling and miniaturization exception.

3. A more in depth look at DPR.
Using Gargantuan, 30 Str/Dex, for the opposing DR without Arsenal you can reach 35 so let's go with that.

A) A Greatsword deals 24d6+10 (94 avg), it costs 6,400gp but while Enhancement costs don't rescale making a Masterwork version costs 44,800 so let's just stick to that normal figure. Assuming three attacks per round because maybe you're looking at taking lv14 that's 118 after DR.
B) Focusing on Mech weapons, you can take Mightyx8, Pairedx1, & Rending. This gives you a double 4d8+26 (44 avg) per attack action, or 156 post DR after six attacks. More attacks, more damage, but costs several upgrade points.
C) For Heavy let's look at the Antiship Beam Sword which is one of the most powerful weapons and as lv3 can be Linked and assuming Mightyx8, you get two attacks of 9d12+36 (94.5) for 119 which comes out pretty close to the cheap Greatsword but has Power/Concussive/Disarming making it a better choice unless you need to trade those Mech properties away for gear-related Arsenal.

Seems fair right? Well let's look at Ranged. A +10 Longbow costs 140,800gp so instead let's just go with a Heavy Repeater for 16d8 (72 avg) which is three attacks and 111 after DR. Built-Ins via Tank become 3d8+26 (39.5 avg) or 129 after DR. And for Arsenal we have two choices, Linked lv3 comes to 3d6+26 (36.5 avg) or 9 after DR and none-Linked comes to 4d6+26 (40 avg) or 15 post DR. Even moving back to a Heavy Railgun for 12d10+36 (102 avg) even after post Rending DR that's only 84. Ranged Arsenal just isn't worth using.
You're ignoring the fact ranged mecha weapons get to add Dex mod to damage (1,5 times if you don't use other ranged weapons, x2 if it's heavy), plus mecha maneuver/stance synergy and whatnot.

And that the crossow still has range in feet while the railgun has range in mu (420 feet not too shabby).

And that the railgun has +8 to hit (often at least +10 actually since the heavy repeater's base range increment is a whooping 20 mu).

And that's before taking in account the Power property that will further increase the G-Railgun's chances of hitting.

As a famous mecha pilot said, it's pointless how powerful your weapon is if you can't actually land a hit with it. ;)

4. Minor nitpick but your Arsenal dice are all over the place with no discernible pattern beyond Ranged gets about an average of 1d6 per level.
If I wanted a boring pattern, I would've written a boring pattern and posted it instead of writing down individual weapons.

6. btw, given the "future" nature of a Super Robot campaign how does this interact with the DMG's modern weapons such as a Shotgun or d20's weapons, since you have rail guns & colossal mechs, say a Pulse Rifle?

Ask your DM since they're optional rules that aren't even in the srd.

In my case, they don't interact, point.

I'll probably check everything new in greater depths later but something stroke my eye when I glanced over the Great One upgrades;
Great Agility grants +40 mu movement speed while the normal seems to have the bonus be equivalent to 4 upgrade points in their respective kind of upgrade, but Agility gives 5 mu per point, so the Great One is effectively doubling the gains in speed.
Just pointing it out in case giving bigger speeds than the norm for four points wasn't intended.
Its colossal bonus to agility is also noted as granting DR.

Thanks, fixed.

Smaller creatures aren't faster than bigger creatures so speed boosts for being smaller doesn't make much sense.

As for the melee vs. ranged stuff, unless it's a super special weapon system, most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable looks are generally won in melee in such shows.

That's my opinion *shrugs*

That too. Melee having higher damage output than ranged is a feature, not a bug, since otherwise nobody bothers trying to get in close.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 09:01:51 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #382 on: October 18, 2016, 08:43:49 PM »
I'm not sure how many below-medium super robots there are, anyway. Lagann is, but it's meant to combine into bigger and bigger things. Buster Machine #7? Sure, but it's impossible to build Nono within the rules given in the slightest. When a single Getter Machine manages to be a mecha it still seems to avoid actually being small. It's just something that, even when they can do it, ends up going very big regardless.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 09:01:09 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #383 on: October 18, 2016, 08:57:20 PM »
There's a typo in the Nanomachines description. It says buying it additional times increases your Reactor level. Should say Regeneration, I think

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #384 on: October 18, 2016, 11:28:29 PM »
1. Added damage types across the boards.
2. Added arsenal size scaling and miniaturization exception.
3. You're ignoring the fact ranged mecha weapons get to add Dex mod to damage (1,5 times if you don't use other ranged weapons, x2 if it's heavy), plus mecha maneuver/stance synergy and whatnot.
4. If I wanted a boring pattern, I would've written a boring pattern and posted it instead of writing down individual weapons.
5. Ask your DM since they're optional rules that aren't even in the srd. In my case, they don't interact, point.
6. That too. Melee having higher damage output than ranged is a feature, not a bug, since otherwise nobody bothers trying to get in close.
1. Cool.
2., If mech weapons deal more now it'll probably replace simply increasing basic weapons unless you ran out of Arsenal space and the ranged side of Arsenal should catch up some too.
3. No I didn't, the +26 modifier is +10 Dex & +16 for Mightyx8 and the +36 Modifier for the Railgun is by applying Dex twice. I did however miss the x1.5 Rate for same weapon type, I thought using two Built-Ins, or two Antiship Sabers, or w/e & etc, meant no same weapon bonus. That'll tweak a few numbers.
4. Ha :p Seriously through, by switching dice back and forth, kind of like you already did, you can hide the DPR gains for each level being an even scaling increase. Plus all the properties can have a specific weight they add to the balance, you can produce tons of unique variations even through mechanically each one is only better than the other if the circumstances favor it and the never level up is almost always better than the last (specially giving the link property, eg +7 dmg < x2). See also #5.
5. They are "optional" rules because D&D games are set in the 1100s or so, not year ummm.... 5016?
A WoTC official d20 product built off the D&D 3rd Edition ruleset does over this area, and yes Modern has it's own public SRD. D&D registers in as PL3 while Eberron, which stole Modern's Action Point System, registers in at PL4. Are current technology level is supposed to be PL5 and mechs start showing up I think are PL7 and higher.

To call back to #4, there are literately dozens of weapons and equipment split through the PLs and there are a lot of unique weapons to be found. Like beam swords even show up in PL8, but even cooler? There is a gravity gun that use alternating attraction/repulsion to rip their targets apart and that sounds awesome! It's worth knowing Modern's system if you plan to build any type of future campaign and it gives you a ton of content to rip off, like do you have a targeting system that reduces concealment? Why not just steal the entry text for the Mech's X-ray visor? How about in your Star game why do we refer to are comm devices as cell phones instead of pipboys or omnitools? Because ambiguity. No one has asked, nothing has been written. A shortcut? PL8 tech is on the table, ask your DM what you can afford. There is a massive amount of world building content at your fingertips that just wants someone to shed some light on it.

6. The problem isn't Melee>Range and don't be confused with Ketaro's thinking it is. But Ranged Arsenal didn't (past tense since you altered a few things so a new crunch needs made) keep up with anything. You could make pretty viable ranged Built-Ins or increasing the size of basic weapons, just not if you were using Arsenal. I'll have to take a look at the changes tomorrow through and see what all was fixed.

Edit - One thing that may help is standardizing progression.
So like the Antiship Sword is 9d12 which of course appears no where on the table. You could use the de facto standard of +2 Size double and round down which means Large should be 13d12 (84.5 avg). You could also claim that since nothing converts into a d12 you need to switch it to the standard d6 or d8 and since 1d12 increased by one Size is 3d6 that comes out to 27d6 (94.5 avg). Perhaps a little less tactful since A) it deals more this way. B) Everything becomes Xd6 or Xd8. So I suggest the former.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 11:43:58 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #385 on: October 18, 2016, 11:38:45 PM »
Given that this is 3.5 homebrew focused entirely on implementing mecha, digging around in what's essentially a separate d20 game for wording is a path to having a scenario that is more confusing and has far many more unevaluated loose ends. I don't think this is a complete rules rewrite akin to Modern. <_<

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #386 on: October 18, 2016, 11:49:43 PM »
Given that this is 3.5 homebrew focused entirely on implementing mecha, digging around in what's essentially a separate d20 game for wording is a path to having a scenario that is more confusing and has far many more unevaluated loose ends. I don't think this is a complete rules rewrite akin to Modern. <_<
Not really and your missing the point worse than Ketaro. Like where in my post did I even come close to saying use d20's Mech system? Nowhere.

I said steal the flavor from it. Suddenly "G-Revolver " gains the short description of "The G-Revolver uses gravitic inducers that cycled rapidly back and forth between attraction and repulsion, literately tearing the target to pieces.". And if your pdr is OCR'ed it's simply copypasta but now all the Arsenal weapons have unique flavor instead of just a name or very odd die value.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #387 on: October 18, 2016, 11:57:49 PM »
If I'm missing your point, it's because you go from what was obviously a response to rules to rules from another system to fluff in one paragraph with as little plain English as possible.

I'm all in favour of not having cringeworthy technobabble fluff stuffed into things for padding, by the way.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #388 on: October 19, 2016, 12:30:00 AM »
If I'm missing your point, it's because you go from what was obviously a response to rules to rules from another system to fluff in one paragraph with as little plain English as possible.
"to rules to rules!"  :eh

I don't really feel Modern is another system but you can pretend it's a super complex system not worth your time understanding if you like. Similarly you can also demand Ols to strip all flavor away for rule-text only because words scare the crap out of you. However my posts are directed at Ols and not the negative Nancy crowd bitching about things for the sake of bitching about things.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #389 on: October 19, 2016, 12:39:15 AM »
If I'm missing your point, it's because you go from what was obviously a response to rules to rules from another system to fluff in one paragraph with as little plain English as possible.
"to rules to rules!"  :eh

Fine, have the verbose version: rules from outside of 3.5 were rejected, you went on an unnecessarily detailed tangent about some part of the Modern stuff, and then went into fluff in two paragraphs full of incomplete sentences. If the point is fluff, there are quicker and less misleading ways to get to it.

Quote
I don't really feel Modern is another system but you can pretend it's a super complex system not worth your time understanding if you like. Similarly you can also demand Ols to strip all flavor away for rule-text only because words scare the crap out of you. However my posts are directed at Ols and not the negative Nancy crowd bitching about things for the sake of bitching about things.

I think it's more separate from 3.5 than other d20 systems I've played in, so... O_o

Flavour text on mass-produced weapons is just padding. And, well, this is mecha; detailed (copied) fluff on weapons is a waste.  <_<

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #390 on: October 19, 2016, 12:56:21 AM »
I'm not sure how many below-medium super robots there are, anyway. Lagann is, but it's meant to combine into bigger and bigger things. Buster Machine #7? Sure, but it's impossible to build Nono within the rules given in the slightest. When a single Getter Machine manages to be a mecha it still seems to avoid actually being small. It's just something that, even when they can do it, ends up going very big regardless.


For diminutive super robots, think Tekkaman Blade.

Nono for the most of her show could be a moon vanguard that eventually picks leadership along a crazy Cha score for her personal army. Just her final form that can push planets around can't be stated up right now. It's something I have to tackle one of these days. Maybe a PrC for "uber massive robot"?

There's a typo in the Nanomachines description. It says buying it additional times increases your Reactor level. Should say Regeneration, I think

Fixed, thanks. So many typos... :blush

1. Added damage types across the boards.
2. Added arsenal size scaling and miniaturization exception.
3. You're ignoring the fact ranged mecha weapons get to add Dex mod to damage (1,5 times if you don't use other ranged weapons, x2 if it's heavy), plus mecha maneuver/stance synergy and whatnot.
4. If I wanted a boring pattern, I would've written a boring pattern and posted it instead of writing down individual weapons.
5. Ask your DM since they're optional rules that aren't even in the srd. In my case, they don't interact, point.
6. That too. Melee having higher damage output than ranged is a feature, not a bug, since otherwise nobody bothers trying to get in close.
1. Cool.
2., If mech weapons deal more now it'll probably replace simply increasing basic weapons unless you ran out of Arsenal space and the ranged side of Arsenal should catch up some too.
3. No I didn't, the +26 modifier is +10 Dex & +16 for Mightyx8 and the +36 Modifier for the Railgun is by applying Dex twice. I did however miss the x1.5 Rate for same weapon type, I thought using two Built-Ins, or two Antiship Sabers, or w/e & etc, meant no same weapon bonus. That'll tweak a few numbers.
4. Ha :p Seriously through, by switching dice back and forth, kind of like you already did, you can hide the DPR gains for each level being an even scaling increase. Plus all the properties can have a specific weight they add to the balance, you can produce tons of unique variations even through mechanically each one is only better than the other if the circumstances favor it and the never level up is almost always better than the last (specially giving the link property, eg +7 dmg < x2). See also #5.
5. They are "optional" rules because D&D games are set in the 1100s or so, not year ummm.... 5016?
A WoTC official d20 product built off the D&D 3rd Edition ruleset does over this area, and yes Modern has it's own public SRD. D&D registers in as PL3 while Eberron, which stole Modern's Action Point System, registers in at PL4. Are current technology level is supposed to be PL5 and mechs start showing up I think are PL7 and higher.

To call back to #4, there are literately dozens of weapons and equipment split through the PLs and there are a lot of unique weapons to be found. Like beam swords even show up in PL8, but even cooler? There is a gravity gun that use alternating attraction/repulsion to rip their targets apart and that sounds awesome! It's worth knowing Modern's system if you plan to build any type of future campaign and it gives you a ton of content to rip off, like do you have a targeting system that reduces concealment? Why not just steal the entry text for the Mech's X-ray visor? How about in your Star game why do we refer to are comm devices as cell phones instead of pipboys or omnitools? Because ambiguity. No one has asked, nothing has been written. A shortcut? PL8 tech is on the table, ask your DM what you can afford. There is a massive amount of world building content at your fingertips that just wants someone to shed some light on it.

6. The problem isn't Melee>Range and don't be confused with Ketaro's thinking it is. But Ranged Arsenal didn't (past tense since you altered a few things so a new crunch needs made) keep up with anything. You could make pretty viable ranged Built-Ins or increasing the size of basic weapons, just not if you were using Arsenal. I'll have to take a look at the changes tomorrow through and see what all was fixed.

Edit - One thing that may help is standardizing progression.
So like the Antiship Sword is 9d12 which of course appears no where on the table. You could use the de facto standard of +2 Size double and round down which means Large should be 13d12 (84.5 avg). You could also claim that since nothing converts into a d12 you need to switch it to the standard d6 or d8 and since 1d12 increased by one Size is 3d6 that comes out to 27d6 (94.5 avg). Perhaps a little less tactful since A) it deals more this way. B) Everything becomes Xd6 or Xd8. So I suggest the former.

3.You still didn't adress the part where the mundane weapons have a much worst acuraccy.
4.Look, pure point-buy systems are cute and all, but they already were proved to be a failure. There's a reason why Gurps is some obscure barely played system while D&D/Pathfinder ended up the cool RPGs. And that reason is because no matter how hard you try to balance your pure point-buy system, you can never fully account for synergy, leading to eventually people figuring out the most synergetic como and not using anything else. Case in point, the Super Robot is only half-point buy and still has been a pain in the ass to refine. If I also turn the weapons into a point buy, then all I end with is one single weapon build that everybody takes because everything else will be less self-synergetic. And that's a double failure when you take in account that big robots are supposed to be bristling with different types of weaponry pratically be damned. Tl.Dr, fuck pure point buy with a giga rust getter voltekka.
5. I agree that the arsenal stuff could use some minor fluff bits. But honestly I've got plenty of other stuff in the backburner to do first. And if I had an urge to do it, I would probably use something I actually have at hand and have solid familiarity with. I've never played d20 modern, don't have the books, don't know where the srd is, and don't even know what PLX is about (please don't try to explain, if I wanted to know I would search it myself).
6. Whot? :psyduck

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #391 on: October 19, 2016, 01:04:19 AM »
Partly my issue with the lack of ranged access on super robots is I can't figure out what maneuver to use for a Cross Smasher or a Black Hole Cluster  :P

Offline Rekmond

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #392 on: October 19, 2016, 01:12:25 AM »

4.Look, pure point-buy systems are cute and all, but they already were proved to be a failure. There's a reason why Gurps is some obscure barely played system while D&D/Pathfinder ended up the cool RPGs. And that reason is because no matter how hard you try to balance your pure point-buy system, you can never fully account for synergy, leading to eventually people figuring out the most synergistic combo and not using anything else. Case in point, the Super Robot is only half-point buy and still has been a pain in the ass to refine. If I also turn the weapons into a point buy, then all I end with is one single weapon build that everybody takes because everything else will be less self-synergistic. And that's a double failure when you take in account that big robots are supposed to be bristling with different types of weaponry practically be damned. Tl.Dr, fuck pure point buy with a giga rust getter voltekka.

You would run into the same problem with Mekton Zeta. There were multiple ways to do the stealth god build where nothing could ever detect you.
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Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #393 on: October 19, 2016, 01:12:47 AM »
I'm going to echo Os' "Whot" in response to point #6 and a later post of Soro's subtly bashing my apparent complete loss of some sort of point he was making?

Because what I actually said was directly in relation to how Os' SRW homebrew reflects how giant robots/mecha are depicted in their respective games/shows and had nothing to do with the massive number crunching you're trying to do :p
Case in point:
most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable mooks are generally won in melee in such shows.

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #394 on: October 19, 2016, 10:54:38 AM »
most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable mooks are generally won in melee in such shows.
Well sure, but there are a bunch of giant robots that have their final moves be ranged, too. Gravion, Dancouga, Baldios, Zeorymer off the top of my head.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #395 on: October 19, 2016, 12:27:48 PM »
3.You still didn't adress the part where the mundane weapons have a much worst acuraccy.
That's easy enough.

Repeating the examples from before, blowing 19 Upgrade Points & 75 Arsenal a Super Mech can get 43+Dex AC. His opponent spends 8 Upgrade Points and 25 Arsenal points to counter and even using a nonmagical weapon with no Feats or Class Features added in has a 65% chance to hit and I purposely avoided bringing in magic because someone didn't like my Splitting example else where and called it broken.

But then there is this.
You can't enchant your mecha's weapons/plating. I'll specify that later in the intro if it's not clear enough yet.
Which of course does not affect normal weapons. The Enhancement Bonus cost is the same on a Colossal+++ weapon as it is on a Fine--- weapon, the only thing that changes is the Masterwork fee which can be bypassed with stuff like Magic Weapon, or Minor Schemas of Weapon Augmentation or Concurrent Infusions, or Hilted Wands of Wraithstrike. So honestly Mech weapons are not the only thing with bonuses to attack.

Likewise, since a majority of that 43 AC comes from Dodge bonuses (agilityx8 & bio sensor) you can use the Natch System to remove them, reducing your target's optimized AC by at least twelve points. It's one of the reasons I spammed it on Bahamut at the start of the Phantasy Star campaign even through the modifier was pretty low, if you roll badly on Spot it meant I would hit with anything anyway.

4. That's a little extreme tilted, I'm just talking about narrowing the wide dots like one Arsenal level gives a +0 increase to ranged damage while another Arsenal level gives almost +100 to melee. That's a pretty wide margin and you don't have to move to a Point Buy system to fix it, just trim the dice averages a little closer together and maybe try to compensate for Rending's ability to ignore half the target's DR. This also directly correlates with #6 because in your near random figures you've produced a problem that ranged Arsenal weapons don't really serve much use.

5. I figured you would flavor things as some point, you typically do with the rest of your homebrew. Stealing what you can from Modern will give you copypasta through and speed the process up. I might know a guy with none-OCR'ed PDFs if you know a guy with a good OCR program *shiftyeyes*.

6. *sighes* tl;dr.
Mech melee deals 156, Mech ranged deals 129.
D&D melee deals 118, D&D ranged deals 111.
Arsenal melee deals 119, Arsenal ranged deals 15 (85 if heavy).
And no that two digit number for Arsenal's ranged is not a typo.
Slightly depreciated since Arsenal weapons now scale by Size and I haven't recrunched the values.
Which speaking of, did you catch the edit to explain how you want the dice to progress?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 02:00:16 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #396 on: October 19, 2016, 02:58:44 PM »
most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable mooks are generally won in melee in such shows.
Well sure, but there are a bunch of giant robots that have their final moves be ranged, too. Gravion, Dancouga, Baldios, Zeorymer off the top of my head.

Which I also covered in my own post that I quoted for exclusions being for those really rare times when it's a "super special weapon system". Really not common.

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #397 on: October 19, 2016, 07:07:15 PM »
most fights with giant robots that aren't against disposable mooks are generally won in melee in such shows.
Well sure, but there are a bunch of giant robots that have their final moves be ranged, too. Gravion, Dancouga, Baldios, Zeorymer off the top of my head.

Which I also covered in my own post that I quoted for exclusions being for those really rare times when it's a "super special weapon system". Really not common.
But saying "Unless it's with a super special weapon system" is like saying "Unless it's a normal fight". Most super robot shows just pull out some new weapon every other episode, then default back to the normal finisher

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #398 on: October 19, 2016, 07:18:20 PM »
I'm not sure how many of them would fall into Arsenal ("here, give your thing a gun") and not inbuilt weapons or maneuvers.

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #399 on: October 20, 2016, 11:26:55 AM »
What's the damage die on an Arcane Pilot's familiar pods?

Also, the Arcane Pilot's Favored Spell class feature says it improves their maneuvers. I'm going to assume that meant spells?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 11:28:56 AM by CKirk »