General Discussion and Suggestions

[CKirk]

As for sundering, yes it's a common theme in giant robot shows, however from a gaming perspective, it would mean players pretty much need to go restock to a base after every battle to replace destroyed weapons. That's why I added the Disarming property, allowing you to remove weapons that can be easily replaced after the battle is over.

Although I'm all ears, how would such an "easy sunder" system work? First guy to win initiative blows up the other dude's biggest weapon and whoever goes second is left running a losing battle as both their damage potential and HP have been crippled and they can't recover their damage potential? Or just make ranged weapons super easy to sunder while melee ones are more durable?

I'm not really sure. the first thing that comes to mind is that sundering is easier vs low HP targets, so you get that whole "shooting at each other until the ranged weapons get blown up" effect that you see in so many gundam shows.

Also, while final bosses rarely get scrapped by ranged weapons, that doesn't change the fact that their first resort is ranged weapons. That means they must have some reason to stay at range even if they could more easily destroy their targets in melee. That's...not really represented here. With things like Engine Overload, it's trivial to get into melee on round one, and with melee weapons so much better, there's very little reason not to. The exceptions are the built in weapons on some reals...but of the main gundams, the only ones that primarily rely on built in weapons are Freedom/Strike Freedom and Shining/God. Usually it's a rifle or something that any suit could pick up. This is all in the series of course. In the Super Robot Wars games that I'm fairly sure we're all trying to mimic, the list of lead gundams that have melee ultimate moves is: Zeta, the 00 leads, and the G Gundam leads. Every other series lead has, as its strongest attack, a ranged weapon. Double Zeta? High Mega Cannon. Nu? Fin Funnels. Wing/Wing Zero? Buster/Twin Buster Rifle. X/Double X? Satellite Cannons (and even excluding those, their strongest attacks are their beam rifles). Crossbone? Full weapon combination, and barring that, the Peacock Smasher. Strike is iffy because striker packs, but the Agni is typically the strongest of its weapons. Freedom/Strike Freedom? Full Burst mode. Turn A is Moonlight Butterfly of course, but barring that, it's the beam rifle again! Sure, Zeta's is the Waverider Crash, Setsuna is a sword nut, and Domon is a crazy martial artist, but most leads use ranged as their strongest attacks in super robot wars, and that's not something you can do here. (There's also the issue of no vaguely generic reals available to do anything other than an OG campaign, but that's something that the GM is presumably supposed to come up with)

[oslecamo]

Actually, Turn A's second best attack in the games is usually the good old Gundam Hammer and at least in SRWZ he has a twin beam combo between that and Moonlight Butterfly making the rifle the third go-to choice. And at least in SRW J the meteor Freedom's true ultimate attack is a giant beam sword combo with the meteor Justice, while the old strike's most damaging module was the giant sword.

But I get your point, so I've added a new weapon property, Volatile. It gives a 50% chance of the weapon going boom when the mecha suffers damage or they roll a natural 1 on the attack roll, but you can't lose more than 1 volatile weapon each round this way. Added a bunch of new ranged Arsenal weapons whose names may or may not appear familiar with the Volatile property but otherwise have the highest damage values at each tier.

Also added Generic Universal Neo Dynamic Assault Mobile Suits to the real pilot, no built-in weapons or special abilities, but bigger arsenal space, need to spend at least 25% of it on weapons.

That's....wow that's terrible. How is that a Main Weapon now? Your main weapon is one that you always use the most and can always rely on. That on top of the incredibly reduced max energy values and the even more butchered energy regen and the awesome amount of methods the SRW system has for getting additional actions and attacks and move above the normal, all of which also need energy expended on them on top of the general maneuver costs and I'm starting to find this overhaul unplayable in any sort of casual means and that's just in regards to the new rules for Energy ~.~

This is going to be like completely making a new character soon when the level up comes around in Phantasy Star.....


I get that weapon swapping may be a sort of thing in mecha animes, but in D&D you generally have little need or want to bother switching weapons except when one stops working or when you have another that'd work better on a particular opponent. I get we're trying to emulate mecha animes here, but we're also D&D at the core of it with all this 

Ok, removed the main weapon energy cost completely.

[Rekmond]

Ugh, I get that this system apparently needed a lot of rework but dang. I only got done making my Moon Vanguard the other week.

[CKirk]

But I get your point, so I've added a new weapon property, Volatile. It gives a 50% chance of the weapon going boom when the mecha suffers damage or they roll a natural 1 on the attack roll, but you can't lose more than 1 volatile weapon each round this way. Added a bunch of new ranged Arsenal weapons whose names may or may not appear familiar with the Volatile property but otherwise have the highest damage values at each tier.

Also added Generic Universal Neo Dynamic Assault Mobile Suits to the real pilot, no built-in weapons or special abilities, but bigger arsenal space, need to spend at least 25% of it on weapons.

Awesome! This fixes pretty much all of the issues I had with this


That said, I just noticed that Machinery Warriors still get EN scaling with level. Is this intentional? (I could see it being intentional, because they're supposed to have super endurance, but I want to make sure)

[Anomander]

Speaking of the Machinery Warrior, I've always wondered; since both the pilot and the mecha gain the regeneration quality, if an android uses One with the Machine, doesn't that technically grant a double regeneration effect to the mecha, (the regen of the mecha itself + the regen of the pilot) since effects that heal either heal the mecha?

[oslecamo]

Added Showtime Star, the Gun Maniac tac feat plus Cyber Newtype, Innovade and Coordinator feats.

But I get your point, so I've added a new weapon property, Volatile. It gives a 50% chance of the weapon going boom when the mecha suffers damage or they roll a natural 1 on the attack roll, but you can't lose more than 1 volatile weapon each round this way. Added a bunch of new ranged Arsenal weapons whose names may or may not appear familiar with the Volatile property but otherwise have the highest damage values at each tier.

Also added Generic Universal Neo Dynamic Assault Mobile Suits to the real pilot, no built-in weapons or special abilities, but bigger arsenal space, need to spend at least 25% of it on weapons.

Awesome! This fixes pretty much all of the issues I had with this


That said, I just noticed that Machinery Warriors still get EN scaling with level. Is this intentional? (I could see it being intentional, because they're supposed to have super endurance, but I want to make sure)

Yes, but was too high, lowered it down.

Speaking of the Machinery Warrior, I've always wondered; since both the pilot and the mecha gain the regeneration quality, if an android uses One with the Machine, doesn't that technically grant a double regeneration effect to the mecha, (the regen of the mecha itself + the regen of the pilot) since effects that heal either heal the mecha?

No, they're still separate HP pools (hence the note about when the mecha takes damage, so does the android), clarified.

[Anomander]

The Android's One with the Machine then suddenly becomes a penalty and a terrible thing to use, since every damage inflicted to the mecha hurts the android but the heals to the mecha doesn't heal the android. The ability effectively has every damage suffered by the mecha count as critical hits that also hurt the mecha. It worked only because the heals healed the android as well, now the ability only cripples the whole.

[oslecamo]

One with the machine always worked because it allows you to buff your Mecha's max HP, making it able to tank more damage before going down. Otherwise Androids end as magical reverse entropy holes that reward you for stuffing your cockpit with mooks with cure light wounds wands and other healing multiplier shenigans.

Kinda strange coming from you who's always pointing out how raw multipliers are bad.

[Anomander]

I don't think you get what I mean.
The way it works right now, an Android under OwtM would keep both its own HP and the Mecha's separate.
But damage suffered by the mecha is also dealt to the android. Though healing to the mecha doesn't go to the android and healing to the android doesn't go to the mecha.

Android has 100 hp and uses OwtM. The mecha receives 50 damage. Android also receives 50 damage.
Mecha heals 30 damage with a spirit, android doesn't heal. Mecha receives 60 damage, so does the android.
The mecha still has enough hp to still be up and running, but the android got killed.
It is like every attack deal critical hits. For it to work, it would have to stop the android from suffering the damage as well or get the healing too. Otherwise the android will indeed need a horde of mooks healing it all the time to stop his mecha from kill it because it cannot keep up with its healing. Before they shared the the same HP and if the mecha was destroyed the android died. Now it just makes it easier to kill the pilot.

If the issue is heals on the android pilot healing the mecha, that's something else that can be prevented by itself. The mecha could keep damaging/healing the android as a one-way street. Damage specifically done to the android within the mecha similarly wouldn't affect the mecha.
It better distributes the risks of getting killed in the mecha instead of just benefiting from an extra pool of HP.

[SorO_Lost]

Ugh, I get that this system apparently needed a lot of rework but dang. I only got done making my Moon Vanguard the other week.

Yeah but it helps when you don't do stuff like this.

Friendship/Devotion relationship feat: Same as Cheer, with a group of minions that keep bringing you back/giving you rerolls and the like.

Well that's actually intended to promote "kill the mooks first/simultaneously!".

One with the machine always worked because it allows you to buff your Mecha's max HP, making it able to tank more damage before going down. Otherwise Androids end as magical reverse entropy holes that reward you for stuffing your cockpit with mooks with cure light wounds wands and other healing multiplier shenigans.

[oslecamo]

I don't think you get what I mean.
The way it works right now, an Android under OwtM would keep both its own HP and the Mecha's separate.
But damage suffered by the mecha is also dealt to the android. Though healing to the mecha doesn't go to the android and healing to the android doesn't go to the mecha.

Android has 100 hp and uses OwtM. The mecha receives 50 damage. Android also receives 50 damage.
Mecha heals 30 damage with a spirit, android doesn't heal. Mecha receives 60 damage, so does the android.
The mecha still has enough hp to still be up and running, but the android got killed.
It is like every attack deal critical hits. For it to work, it would have to stop the android from suffering the damage as well or get the healing too. Otherwise the android will indeed need a horde of mooks healing it all the time to stop his mecha from kill it because it cannot keep up with its healing. Before they shared the the same HP and if the mecha was destroyed the android died. Now it just makes it easier to kill the pilot.

Only if you're using and abusing self-healing effects.

But if you are not making such a build , it's a net gain while the mecha lasts, in particular when you take in account the mecha auto-ejects the pilot when it reaches 0 HP.

Promoting a mecha build that doesn't rely on self-healing? Crazy, I know. Whoever heard of mechas that can't reconstruct themselves on the fly? It's almost as several of them are supposed to be inorganic machines. 

And if you want a self-healing android build that badly, that's what Machinery Warrior is there for.

[ketaro]

No I think you're missing what Anomander is saying Os. In his example, without any self-healing tricks, the Mecha outlived the pilot. One With the Machine doesn't help anything if both the Mecha and the pilot are taking the same damage from every attack the Mecha takes. A pooled HP pool doesn't make the Mecha last longer if they both take the same damage and are tracked separately.

If the pilot only has 50 HP and the Mecha has 100 HP, and OWtM is used to add the pilots 50 to the Mecha 100, but then the Mecha gets hit for 60 damage and both the Mecha and the pilot have to take the full 60 damage each, now the Mecha is at 40 HP and the pilot is at -10 HP and dead after just one attack.


That's what I read anyways.

[oslecamo]

Ketaro, you're the one misreading things here.

First One with the Machine doesn't add HP together, it makes the mecha's max hp equal to the android's max HP. So you should never use it if your mecha has more HP than your android.

Second, Anomander specifically used healing on his example. Since the healing's isn't magically multiplied, if you try to abuse healing effects on the mecha's boosted HP pool, the android pilot themselves cannot keep up if you're making an uber self-healing build.

However if you're not (ab)using self-healing effects, then it becomes a moot point since the mecha will reach 0 HP at the same time as the android pilot. But was able to tank more damage if the Android had higher HP than the mecha in the first place.

[ketaro]

Weird I don't see that even after it being pointed out 

[CKirk]

Ketaro, you're the one misreading things here.

First One with the Machine doesn't add HP together, it makes the mecha's max hp equal to the android's max HP. So you should never use it if your mecha has more HP than your android.

Second, Anomander specifically used healing on his example. Since the healing's isn't magically multiplied, if you try to abuse healing effects on the mecha's boosted HP pool, the android pilot themselves cannot keep up if you're making an uber self-healing build.

However if you're not (ab)using self-healing effects, then it becomes a moot point since the mecha will reach 0 HP at the same time as the android pilot. But was able to tank more damage if the Android had higher HP than the mecha in the first place.

Doesn't that make self healing spirits pointless though? Like, what's the point of Guts if it doesn't actually provide any effective healing?

[oslecamo]

Guts is quite effective healing as long as you're not One with the Machine, in which case the pilot does not suffer damage inflicted to the mecha.

[CKirk]

I was just looking at the super robot upgrades, and the "Supporting" upgrade kinda confuses me. who exactly does it provide the bonus to? its pilot? an adjacent allied mech?
(also, the "Sentient" upgrade and "Supporting" both reference the super robot's own level. Is that the pilot's level?)

[Anomander]

But if you are not making such a build , it's a net gain while the mecha lasts, in particular when you take in account the mecha auto-ejects the pilot when it reaches 0 HP.

That wouldn't work well. The android would normally die before the mecha breaks or at the same time, at best. It won't get to use the auto-eject.
Not using OwtM gives your own HP + the HP of the mecha before you die, since when the mecha is down you're ejected. An android with OwtM has only his own HP and doesn't get a free escape with the auto-eject if there's an attack that would kill it.
You get a mecha that has a more HP than the norm (if the android invests big in his own HP score, which he has no choice to do if he doesn't want to have one less ability) but you die faster in it.
Even without heals a critical hit on a mecha inflicts more damage to the android than it would normally receive.
If somehow the mecha is destroyed and the android inside is still alive, it would be in a much worse shape than another pilot.

Promoting a mecha build that doesn't rely on self-healing? Crazy, I know. Whoever heard of mechas that can't reconstruct themselves on the fly? It's almost as several of them are supposed to be inorganic machines. 

Your reasoning was that you didn't want to encourage mooks healing the android to save the mecha. You just have to prevent heals on the android from affecting the mecha. Now you're still encouraging mooks to heal the android within so that it can keep up with the mecha's heals.
A PC that doesn't have any way to heal his mecha, himself or by an ally, is highly unlikely (they'll likely get at least 1 spirit to heal). Mostly considering that without healing a mecha will have a hard time being used through multiple encounters until it gets back home for long repairs.
In-combat healing is also rather common in DnD all around, if only from a dedicated healer. With this campaign setting giving tons of means to dish out big numbers for damage, this is no less the case. Sure, an android could use Guts while not in OwtM, but then if it has Guts why even bother with OwtM.

Otherwise, it could also return to the mecha using the android's HP like it did before and the mecha being destroyed if the android dies, then add the effect that the android piloting the mecha is targeted as if it was the mecha itself and so can no longer be affected by effects that wouldn't affect the mecha, which would prevent any extra method of healing and buffs from within the cockpit that isn't available to any other mecha (and prevent most buffers in the cockpit from affecting the pilot to buff the mecha). It also wouldn't benefit from regeneration twice off Machinery Warrior since multiple regeneration effects already do not stack and wouldn't be applied to two different targets to combine the effect.

And if you want a self-healing android build that badly, that's what Machinery Warrior is there for.

For now I'm interested in the android becoming one with the machine properly. I could have made a stronger build without the android race to start with but I liked the idea of One with the Machine for my concept and I have so much more stuff to work with now.
Machinery Warrior starts at level 11. Bit late for the android to start trying to keep up with an healed mecha so that's out of the question in campaigns in the lower levels. I'll probably level dip in it all the same, but not for the regeneration, which'll be redundant in my build anyway.


Born to Fight feat
The arsenal surge for Mega Booster and TROMBE! do not have a duration.

Innovade feat
Is there supposed to be a limit to how many mechas can be piloted by this? You can fit quite a few in 20 feet plus 5 feet per Pilot level and even more if you use the Einst Queen Infiltrator trick to turn that range to mecha scale.
Also, if a mecha/machine becomes unattended within range of two Innovades, which one controls it? An opposed charisma check, perhaps?
Oddly, the benefit feels like something machines should be good at too, despite it being normally a 'human' thing. Androids are bad at it though since they can't use charisma well.

Showtime Star
Pretty cool. One More Time only covers the cost of the weapon, right? Not the maneuver that triggers it. At least that's what seems to be intended the way it is presented. Very powerful and maybe not too much so as long as it happens to only one attack and not all of them, if a maneuver offers a bunch of shots.

[oslecamo]

I was just looking at the super robot upgrades, and the "Supporting" upgrade kinda confuses me. who exactly does it provide the bonus to? its pilot? an adjacent allied mech?
(also, the "Sentient" upgrade and "Supporting" both reference the super robot's own level. Is that the pilot's level?)

Pilot on all cases, clarified.

But if you are not making such a build , it's a net gain while the mecha lasts, in particular when you take in account the mecha auto-ejects the pilot when it reaches 0 HP.

That wouldn't work well. The android would normally die before the mecha breaks or at the same time, at best. It won't get to use the auto-eject.
Not using OwtM gives your own HP + the HP of the mecha before you die, since when the mecha is down you're ejected. An android with OwtM has only his own HP and doesn't get a free escape with the auto-eject if there's an attack that would kill it.
You get a mecha that has a more HP than the norm (if the android invests big in his own HP score, which he has no choice to do if he doesn't want to have one less ability) but you die faster in it.
Even without heals a critical hit on a mecha inflicts more damage to the android than it would normally receive.
If somehow the mecha is destroyed and the android inside is still alive, it would be in a much worse shape than another pilot.

Good point on critical hits, added clause for that.

Although it's fine to don't use all your multiple racial abilities if you don't want to. Not all elves walk around with swords. Not all halflings specialize in thrown weapons. Not all dwarves decide to only fight giants and goblinoids.

Promoting a mecha build that doesn't rely on self-healing? Crazy, I know. Whoever heard of mechas that can't reconstruct themselves on the fly? It's almost as several of them are supposed to be inorganic machines. 

Your reasoning was that you didn't want to encourage mooks healing the android to save the mecha. You just have to prevent heals on the android from affecting the mecha. Now you're still encouraging mooks to heal the android within so that it can keep up with the mecha's heals.
A PC that doesn't have any way to heal his mecha, himself or by an ally, is highly unlikely (they'll likely get at least 1 spirit to heal). Mostly considering that without healing a mecha will have a hard time being used through multiple encounters until it gets back home for long repairs.

Ship Veteran Mechanics, or the default one hour per 10% of HP repair.

In-combat healing is also rather common in DnD all around, if only from a dedicated healer. With this campaign setting giving tons of means to dish out big numbers for damage, this is no less the case. Sure, an android could use Guts while not in OwtM, but then if it has Guts why even bother with OwtM.

Depends on who you ask. A lot of the so-called CO community preaches the exact opposite, that in-combat healing is a waste of time because you could be killing stuff instead. If you do everything well you won't even need to heal in the first place, and once the enemies are defeated you can heal at your leisure. Heck, my second D&D group that was as noob as they come and still had a rule of "only stop to heal for stablizing bleeding allies, and even then if they're about to die". And very few people like playing the healbot.

Otherwise, it could also return to the mecha using the android's HP like it did before and the mecha being destroyed if the android dies, then add the effect that the android piloting the mecha is targeted as if it was the mecha itself and so can no longer be affected by effects that wouldn't affect the mecha, which would prevent any extra method of healing and buffs from within the cockpit that isn't available to any other mecha (and prevent most buffers in the cockpit from affecting the pilot to buff the mecha). It also wouldn't benefit from regeneration twice off Machinery Warrior since multiple regeneration effects already do not stack and wouldn't be applied to two different targets to combine the effect.

It never worked like that. If anything the wording wasn't clear enough, silly me that by writing that failed to predict that writing that damage to the mecha applies to the android can actually mean that everything under the stars applied to the mecha would also apply to the android.

And if you want a self-healing android build that badly, that's what Machinery Warrior is there for.

For now I'm interested in the android becoming one with the machine properly. I could have made a stronger build without the android race to start with

Indeed, you could've played a kobold and went pun-pun.

"I could've made a more OP character" isn't much of a valid argument in D&D.

but I liked the idea of One with the Machine for my concept and I have so much more stuff to work with now.Machinery Warrior starts at level 11. Bit late for the android to start trying to keep up with an healed mecha so that's out of the question in campaigns in the lower levels. I'll probably level dip in it all the same, but not for the regeneration, which'll be redundant in my build anyway.

Suit yourself, just let me make a note to start keeping careful track of your character's HP in case there are any more misunderstandings.

Born to Fight feat
The arsenal surge for Mega Booster and TROMBE! do not have a duration.

Innovade feat
Is there supposed to be a limit to how many mechas can be piloted by this? You can fit quite a few in 20 feet plus 5 feet per Pilot level and even more if you use the Einst Queen Infiltrator trick to turn that range to mecha scale.
Also, if a mecha/machine becomes unattended within range of two Innovades, which one controls it? An opposed charisma check, perhaps?
Oddly, the benefit feels like something machines should be good at too, despite it being normally a 'human' thing. Androids are bad at it though since they can't use charisma well.

Showtime Star
Pretty cool. One More Time only covers the cost of the weapon, right? Not the maneuver that triggers it. At least that's what seems to be intended the way it is presented. Very powerful and maybe not too much so as long as it happens to only one attack and not all of them, if a maneuver offers a bunch of shots.

-Fixed.
-If you're already piloting a mecha, then you can't pilot another even if it's unattended just as if you were inside the mecha you're already piloting. If the mecha is being controlled by another Innovade, then it doesn't count as unattended. Also Innovades were originally meat bags machine slaves organic terminals for a super computer, so lack of android synergy is intended.
-Thanks. Yes, maneuver paid apart, limited the free pass to one shot per weapon.

[CKirk]

Is it intentional that Gate to Nowhere, Showtime Star, Cyber Newtype, Innovade, and Coordinator aren't [Pilot] Feats? The former two especially, as they require Pilot Levels

Also, it feels weird to me that Cyber Newtype doesn't let you use funnels, what with that being pretty much the whole point of cyber newtypes (not entirely, but you get what I mean)

(click to show/hide)

And very few people like playing the healbot.

I love playing healbot. It's fun.